Two coasts: One very different world

[Mouse Detective]

Now, it's about selling real estate and timeshares.

The only substantial construction at WDW this past decade has been time share resorts. Then we have Golden Oak where several wealthy people are having homes built (at the expense of one golf course) and we have Flamingo Crossings (which no one fell for).

At least Disney gave the public American Idol Experience!

 

[GenerationX]

Was gonna let someone else take this, but since I am waiting here ... let's tackle those comments I bolded:

1.) That is an excuse that isn't really accurate regarding DLR that is often used to justify bad management decisions in Florida ... tell that to the 45% of DL visitors who don't live in the HUGE area defined as 'local' and, indeed, come from all over the world ... and have since 1955;

2.) Self owned nostalgia is simply your memories. It means you are allowing past 'good times' to cloud your view of present realities because you choose to ''see the positives'';

3.) No, it was in the 70s and 80s and into the 90s. Now, it's about selling real estate and timeshares. And when's the last time you played a round of golf? How about go horseback riding? Bike around FW? Rent a boat on the SSL? Spend a day at the spa? ... And I wonder how many posters here ever do any of the above versus riding Space Mountain 21 times in a week. Most fanbois' vacation is theme parks, theme parks and, oh yeah, theme parks;

4.) Yeah, about that popularity deal ... more people shop at Walmart and eat at McDonald's etc.

I'll give you #2, but argue the rest.

1. DLR relies significantly more on locals than WDW.

2. Agree completely. Nostalgia blocks people from having objective opinions.

3. Real estate and timeshares may have been the focus of the last ten years of construction at WDW, but only because there was huge demand for it and there was already incredible amounts of entertainment available at WDW. Our family likes the varied recreational options and takes advantage of them each trip. There's no way anyone could ever do everything there is to do at WDW in one week. That is NOT the case at ANY of the other Disney properties. The argument that Disney should be expanding the parks in WDW and that it's the fan community's fault that they're not doing much of it may have some merit, but that argument is far, far outweighed by the overarching reality that WDW already has a gazillion entertainment options available. WDW does not need expansion.

4. The Walmart comparisons may have had a flicker of originality when they were first made, but are just tired and devoid of meaning now. The MK has NOT devolved into Six Flags.

 

[Lee]

That kinda proves my point that Disney world is more than just theme parks. You go down to not only experience the parks, but also to stay at very well themed resorts. They wouldn't build the time shares if people didn't use them. And you know if you're excited Disney only gave you American idol this past decade, you will be in awe when you realize they have added a lot of other things as well!

Point...missed.

 

[cslafferty]

The argument that Disney should be expanding the parks in WDW and that it's the fan community's fault that they're not doing much of it may have some merit, but that argument is far, far outweighed by the overarching reality that WDW already has a gazillion entertainment options available. WDW does not need expansion.

Exactly. The west coast sat back for YEARS and watched all the love and $$ go to FL and other parks around the world, while they got nothing. Then, when DCA was opened, many reacted with "Meh! That's it??" - which sounds a lot like what I'm hearing about FLE. Since it opened, they've been slowly making changes to make DCA more appealing (or some may say to look more like WDW) like adding ToT, a night time show (WoC), and even changed the entrance. Now they have Carsland, who's main attraction (by some accounts) is very similar to Test Track with a different theme. I would wager a guess that the folks on the west coast are saying "It's about time!" and not listening too hard to those who are crying about what they think is missing from WDW.

 

[dreamscometrue]

True ... but how many people are going to be blown away by adding a second spinner, replacing a 20-year-old 'temporary' train station with a new version and adding a kiddie fountain? How many are going to plan MAGICal $8,000 WDW vacations based on the 'new' offerings?

At the end of the day, what you are talking about is very, very minor. I don't know how you can say otherwise when you see what Disney can do elsewhere and what UNI and SW are doing right across town.

Is it lower quality than all those projects? Yes. Absolutely.

And is it lower quality than past WDW efforts? Yes. Absolutely.

I'm sorry that you (and others) don't see it that way, but still that doesn't change the reality.

And it's that last part that epitomizes why I tend to disagree with practically every one of your posts. You seem to believe that there is a reality, and you are one of the few who can 'see' it, when in fact your reality is your perception and is no more real than the perception of any other person in the wdwmagic community.

 

[culturenthrills]

We moved to Tampa in 2006 and have had an AP 4 out of the last 6 years. This January we let them expire. There is just no reason to keep one right now. On the other hand we have had a Universal AP non stop. I actually had one when I lived in VA and would come down a couple of times a year. We have taken that money and have started saving up for a trip to Cali to visit DL, Knotts and Universal. While I will still use my connections to get in to the parks occasionally we are done paying for an AP until they give me a reason to come back. I have been going to WDW since 1974. I knew the Official Guide like the back of my hand. I loved going there. I loved getting the last ride of the night on BTMR and walking thru the nearly deserted park after midnight. It was magical. At times is it still magical yes it is. But most of that magic comes from other people. Taking my wifes kids there for the first time and the many times I have been able to meet friends there or take people their for their first time. Do I still love the place, yes. Can I still go there and have fun, sure. But that doesn't mean have to be satisfied with the way things are. In the 6 years I have lived an hour from WDW I have seen many things go away or go downhill. Has there been some good, yeah, the HM rehab but for everyone one of that there has been half assed rehabs like SM and POTC. I

So I can't wait to take my family to DL for the first time. I have been a few times and the magic is still there and I can't wait to show them all the little things that make DL a magical place and see the new and improved DCA, even though there was alot I like about the old DCA too.

 

[TP2000]

The west coast sat back for YEARS and watched all the love and $$ go to FL and other parks around the world, while they got nothing. Then, when DCA was opened, many reacted with "Meh! That's it??" - which sounds a lot like what I'm hearing about FLE. Since it opened, they've been slowly making changes to make DCA more appealing (or some may say to look more like WDW) like adding ToT, a night time show (WoC), and even changed the entrance. Now they have Carsland, who's main attraction (by some accounts) is very similar to Test Track with a different theme.

While I understand part of your point, to be fair, DCA underwent very healthy expansion and redesign before the big Extreme Makeover began. It wasn't just Tower of Terror, World of Color and Buena Vista Street. It was a decade of minor and major expansion that would make any WDW park jealous;

2001 - DCA debuts with a huge THUD!
2002 - Flik's Fun Fair: 4 new nicely themed kiddy attractions
2003 - Alladin A Musical Spectacular (the highest rated Disney stage show in America)
2004 - Tower of Terror
2005 - Block Party Bash (the original, fully staffed California version), & Turtle Talk
2006 - Monsters Inc. Mike & Sulley To The Rescue, plus "placemaking" of Hollywood Studios area
2007 - Extreme Makeover announced
2008 - Toy Story Midway Mania & Pixar Play Parade opened (not part of Extreme Makeover budget)
2010 - World of Color, Glow Fest, & Paradise Pier retheme/beautification
2011 - The Little Mermaid, elecTRONica, more Paradise Pier retheme/beautification
2012 - Buena Vista Street, Red Car Trolley, Cars Land (3 attractions), Mad T Party

There's also a bunch of smaller stuff, like the Disney Junior Live On Stage theater show taking over the ABC TV restaurant, Who Wants To Be A Millionaire show coming and going, etc. But those are the major highlights from DCA's first full decade of growth, expansion, and redesign, both before and after the Extreme Makeover of 2009-12.

Now if DHS or DAK had that type of major investment over the last decade, there would be major excitement in the WDW fan community.

What's worse, is that there's a slightly less ambitious list of new attractions, parades, spectaculars and major upgrades that also came to Disneyland over the same decade that would make Magic Kingdom Park planners blush. And Disneyland sits about 80 yards to the north of the DCA entry gates.

The decade of the 1990's that preceded DCA opening was a pretty good decade too, with several major new expansions and a great E Ticket in Indiana Jones Adventure. That wasn't a decade where Disneyland "got nothing" either. So while the DCA debacle was an unmitigated disaster that took almost a decade and at least 1.5 Billion dollars to fix, things have been pretty good in Anaheim for some time.

Once Paul Pressler and Cynthia Harriss were booted out in '03 after about five years of bad management and allergic reactions to paint brushes, things turned around very quickly in Anaheim. I have no doubt the same thing could happen in TDO some day. The turnaround might take a tad longer to get going due to the nature of the big beast there at WDW, and the larger scope of the problems there, but it's still a turnaround that could happen as witnessed in Anaheim within 18 months from October, 2003 to May, 2005.

 

[culturenthrills]

The crux of these assertions that WDW was “better” back in the 80’s and 90’s revolves around a fundamental part of the business that has drastically changed. Back in the good old days, Disney ran everything and had total control of all operations. When the park would close for the night the 3rd shift maintenance crews would come in and fix anything that was broken. They’d even make repair parts in the machine shop at 3 AM if that was necessary.

You never saw a painter, carpenter or any other skilled craftsman working within the park during operating hours. Not only did you not see them, you didn’t hear them either (behind construction walls). There used to be a time that all Disney work was done by Disney employees. From garbage collection to high hazard work, Disney CM’s did it all. That changed years ago. It is not uncommon to see and hear employees of a local painting or building contractor working on projects in any of the U.S. Disney parks

Just like any other business (and the government), Disney found that it was far less expensive to contract out most of their facilities management work. They also found that it was less expensive to contract out the entertainment side as well. Remember “The Living Statues”? They were a contract company. You all know “Push” and “Pipa” the talking trash cans. They’re run by a private contractor as well.

The bottom line to all of this is that in the old days when a show element broke, the Disney maintenance staff could quickly respond to fix the problem even if it required making a replacement part in the machine shop in the middle of the night. Those days are long gone. The only things that get fixed fast are safety problems. Most broken show items get put into the normal maintenance rotation and get fixed according to schedule. I’m sorry, but that aspect is not going to change. Disney is a business first.

Yeah but nowhere does it say they have to do that. They chose profit over quality.

 

[Californian Elitist]

Exactly. The west coast sat back for YEARS and watched all the love and $$ go to FL and other parks around the world, while they got nothing. Then, when DCA was opened, many reacted with "Meh! That's it??" - which sounds a lot like what I'm hearing about FLE. Since it opened, they've been slowly making changes to make DCA more appealing (or some may say to look more like WDW) like adding ToT, a night time show (WoC), and even changed the entrance. Now they have Carsland, who's main attraction (by some accounts) is very similar to Test Track with a different theme. I would wager a guess that the folks on the west coast are saying "It's about time!" and not listening too hard to those who are crying about what they think is missing from WDW.

This is exactly how I feel.

 

[cslafferty]

While I understand part of your point, to be fair, DCA underwent very healthy expansion and redesign before the big Extreme Makeover began. It wasn't just Tower of Terror, World of Color and Buena Vista Street. It was a decade of minor and major expansion that would make any WDW park jealous;

2001 - DCA debuts with a huge THUD!
2002 - Flik's Fun Fair: 4 new nicely themed kiddy attractions
2003 - Alladin A Musical Spectacular (the highest rated Disney stage show in America)
2004 - Tower of Terror
2005 - Block Party Bash (the original, fully staffed California version), & Turtle Talk
2006 - Monsters Inc. Mike & Sulley To The Rescue, plus "placemaking" of Hollywood Studios area
2007 - Extreme Makeover announced
2008 - Toy Story Midway Mania & Pixar Play Parade opened (not part of Extreme Makeover budget)
2010 - World of Color, Glow Fest, & Paradise Pier retheme/beautification
2011 - The Little Mermaid, elecTRONica, more Paradise Pier retheme/beautification
2012 - Buena Vista Street, Red Car Trolley, Cars Land (3 attractions), Mad T Party

There's also a bunch of smaller stuff, like the Disney Junior Live On Stage theater show taking over the ABC TV restaurant, Who Wants To Be A Millionaire show coming and going, etc. But those are the major highlights from DCA's first full decade of growth, expansion, and redesign, both before and after the Extreme Makeover of 2009-12.

Now if DHS or DAK had that type of major investment over the last decade, there would be major excitement in the WDW fan community.

But this is exactly my point - How many of the above additions to DCA are exactly like/very similar to/their answer to something that already existed in WDW?? And, OK, let's say the 1990's were productive ones at DL - that's still a good 25 years without a whole lot. When I went there for the first time in '98, the Disneyland Hotel needed a MAJOR refurb and the castle looked like it hadn't been touched since the park opened (compared to how it looks since the 50th anniversary makeover). I still don't think that WDW has anything to be jealous about.

 

[cslafferty]

While I understand part of your point, to be fair, DCA underwent very healthy expansion and redesign before the big Extreme Makeover began. It wasn't just Tower of Terror, World of Color and Buena Vista Street. It was a decade of minor and major expansion that would make any WDW park jealous;

2001 - DCA debuts with a huge THUD!
2002 - Flik's Fun Fair: 4 new nicely themed kiddy attractions
2003 - Alladin A Musical Spectacular (the highest rated Disney stage show in America)
2004 - Tower of Terror
2005 - Block Party Bash (the original, fully staffed California version), & Turtle Talk
2006 - Monsters Inc. Mike & Sulley To The Rescue, plus "placemaking" of Hollywood Studios area
2007 - Extreme Makeover announced
2008 - Toy Story Midway Mania & Pixar Play Parade opened (not part of Extreme Makeover budget)
2010 - World of Color, Glow Fest, & Paradise Pier retheme/beautification
2011 - The Little Mermaid, elecTRONica, more Paradise Pier retheme/beautification
2012 - Buena Vista Street, Red Car Trolley, Cars Land (3 attractions), Mad T Party

There's also a bunch of smaller stuff, like the Disney Junior Live On Stage theater show taking over the ABC TV restaurant, Who Wants To Be A Millionaire show coming and going, etc. But those are the major highlights from DCA's first full decade of growth, expansion, and redesign, both before and after the Extreme Makeover of 2009-12.

Now if DHS or DAK had that type of major investment over the last decade, there would be major excitement in the WDW fan community.

But this is exactly my point - How many of the above additions to DCA are exactly like/very similar to/their answer to something that already existed in WDW?? And, OK, let's say the 1990's were productive ones at DL - that's still a good 25 years without a whole lot. When I went there for the first time in '98, the Disneyland Hotel needed a MAJOR refurb and the castle looked like it hadn't been touched since the park opened (compared to how it looks since the 50th anniversary makeover). I still don't think that WDW has anything to be jealous about.

 

[bubbles1812]

That kinda proves my point that Disney world is more than just theme parks. You go down to not only experience the parks, but also to stay at very well themed resorts. They wouldn't build the time shares if people didn't use them. And you know if you're excited Disney only gave you American idol this past decade, you will be in awe when you realize they have added a lot of other things as well!

Your sarcasm detector might need some adjusting... he was just joking. I don't think I've ever seen anyone actually excited for the American Idol Experience. It's a crappy attraction where the majority of people singing are just plain awful...though I suppose that is a reflection of the real American Idol too.

 

[bubbles1812]

Then I feel sorry for you. Stay close minded if you want, but realize that Wdw and DL both try to offer the best experiences for their guests. And wdw has tried to do that by providing additional time shares in junction with their most popular resorts, because wdw is not all about the parks.

It's fine that they are building time shares but when it is the only substantial offering of the last decade...there is something wrong there. The only reason the time shares can exist is because of the parks. You don't keep up their quality and offer some substantial new things (no I am not talking about NFE), people eventually notice and either come less or stop coming at all. (Yes, I realize that sounds like a bit of a dooms day scenario and it's not happening in great numbers...yet...but even on this board, with people who absolutely love Disney, it's happening. Eventually average park goers will also notice things and follow some of that trend). So yes, it really does boil down to the fact that it is all about the parks. You don't have them, people don't come. End of story

 

[spacemt354]

Your sarcasm detector might need some adjusting... he was just joking. I don't think I've ever seen anyone actually excited for the American Idol Experience. It's a crappy attraction where the majority of people singing are just plain awful...though I suppose that is a reflection of the real American Idol too.

Thanks for the tip. But I knew he was being sarcastic, so my sarcasm detector doesn't need adjusting. If you noticed, I was being sarcastic as well.

 

[TP2000]

So not only is your claim that the time shares are the only substantial expansion not true. It also fails to take into account that a lot of families continue to go to wdw because they haven't seen it all yet, and they never will because it will never be complete.

Lemme guesss... You work in Disney Corporate Communications? If not, you missed your calling.

 

[Californian Elitist]

Actually what it all boils down to is a mouse, and the fact that DL and wdw are two different experiences all starting from the same origin. Wdw is not all about the parks. Is that saying te parks have no meaning? Of course not. But there are more things to do in wdw than in DL and that is why the time shares are needed. People like to stay in wdw because no matter how long you stay down there, you'll really never see it all. So not only is your claim that the time shares are the only substantial expansion not true. It also fails to take into account that a lot of families continue to go to wdw because they haven't seen it all yet, and they never will because it will never be complete.

Don't you mean Disneyland? Hahaha, just kidding.

 

[wannab@dis]

Lemme guesss... You work in Disney Corporate Communications? If not, you missed your calling.

I'm sure the echo chamber will give you a bunch of virtual high fives... but is that really the best you can do? Is you argument so weak that anyone that disagrees with your bunch is called ignorant, trolls, or paid off as a disney mouthpiece?

I'm still waiting for my check.

 

[bubbles1812]

Actually what it all boils down to is a mouse, and the fact that DL and wdw are two different experiences all starting from the same origin. Wdw is not all about the parks. Is that saying te parks have no meaning? Of course not. But there are more things to do in wdw than in DL and that is why the time shares are needed. People like to stay in wdw because no matter how long you stay down there, you'll really never see it all. So not only is your claim that the time shares are the only substantial expansion not true. It also fails to take into account that a lot of families continue to go to wdw because they haven't seen it all yet, and they never will because it will never be complete.

I wasn't even talking about Disneyland in that point so another point missed for you. The only substantial addition in the past 10 years has been timeshares and resorts...though not really even that. It's only DVC for the most part. Yes Rey have added things here and there...Everest, other random rides, and finally NFE...which, while fine isn't even getting half of what the original plan called for. Im not going to call it a substantial addition knowing that...it's another project with a mega slashed budget.

And honestly, the same could be said of DIsneyland..you may never see it all unless you are a local, but since you don't seem to be talking about locals, I'll exclude them. And your argument falls a little short as many of the families who do return do much of the same things...they choose the same resort, go to the same restaurants, and dismiss even say some of the rides/attractions that they've never been on simply because for instance, they look "boring" (for example, hall of presidents... A lot of people skip that one). I'm not saying everyone is like this, that would be too big a generalization and I don't think it holds true for the "mega fans" like people on this board but people are creatures of habit. The average guest is a creature of habit. And I'm not just say pulling this out and making it up to just try to make a counter point to you...I've seen it over and over again. I've even asked people why in the world don't they try something new at the world because it does have much to offer (im critical of wdw but it has strengths too) but people just choose what makes them comfortable

And lastly, the point still remains...no parks no anything else. Even if WDW has more than just parks, it all boils down to the parks. They are the draw, the sell. You don't take care of them, you lose customers.

 

[spacemt354]

I wasn't even talking about Disneyland in that point so another point missed for you. The only substantial addition in the past 10 years has been timeshares and resorts...though not really even that. It's only DVC for the most part. Yes Rey have added things here and there...Everest, other random rides, and finally NFE...which, while fine isn't even getting half of what the original plan called for. Im not going to call it a substantial addition knowing that...it's another project with a mega slashed budget.

And honestly, the same could be said of DIsneyland..you may never see it all unless you are a local, but since you don't seem to be talking about locals, I'll exclude them. And your argument falls a little short as many of the families who do return do much of the same things...they choose the same resort, go to the same restaurants, and dismiss even say some of the rides/attractions that they've never been on simply because for instance, they look "boring" (for example, hall of presidents... A lot of people skip that one). I'm not saying everyone is like this, that would be too big a generalization and I don't think it holds true for the "mega fans" like people on this board but people are creatures of habit. The average guest is a creature of habit. And I'm not just say pulling this out and making it up to just try to make a counter point to you...I've seen it over and over again. I've even asked people why in the world don't they try something new at the world because it does have much to offer (im critical of wdw but it has strengths too) but people just choose what makes them comfortable

And lastly, the point still remains...no parks no anything else. Even if WDW has more than just parks, it all boils down to the parks. They are the draw, the sell. You don't take care of them, you lose customers.

It seems to me from all your posts that you keep harping on the same argument. Everything is about the parks, and you claim that if you don't take care of the parks, then people won't return. Well you just disproved your own argument. You complain that wdw hasn't brought anything substantial (in your opinion) to the parks. You also said the average guest is a creature of habit, and you've seen it over and over again that they continue to go back to the things that make them comfortable. So why would wdw need to build anything new? It looks to me like the average guest will gravitate towards the classic attractions that are already there, because that is what makes them comfortable. And wdw has done a great job with updates to classic attractions like HM, PoTC, etc over the past few years. The guests enjoy the rides, and if they keep coming back for those rides, what else to you want from wdw? Then there is also the other side of things. Does the average guest define every family that comes to wdw? No. There are the families that come down for their own definition of a vacation. A luxury hotel, a well themed pool, activities, boats, golf, etc. In addition to their luxury vacation, they have 4 theme parks to explore, something that no other resort on the planet can say. I never said that the parks were not important, but what I am saying is not everyone spends all of their time in the parks. There are some people who come down to wdw and never set foot in the parks. And a lot of people come down to wdw just to be in the Disney atmosphere. They see the bright paint colors on the resorts, they walk the boardwalk, they ride the monorail, and so on. The parks offer these guests a place to explore, and they also offer the "creatures of habit" timeless attractions that they will continue to ride because they enjoy them. So essentially, the time shares do provide for the numerous families that make, and will continue to make, wdw their #1 vacation destination. That is my point, which you continue to avoid.

 

[spacemt354]

I'm sure the echo chamber will give you a bunch of virtual high fives... but is that really the best you can do? Is you argument so weak that anyone that disagrees with your bunch is called ignorant, trolls, or paid off as a disney mouthpiece?

Thank you. All I was trying to do was make a point that some families who come to wdw (my own included), visit the world because it has so much to offer. It's not all about the theme parks. It's an entire vacation that includes theme parks. If wdw is all about the parks, then why have the Disney Cruise Line? Why offer that as an option for families to have half of their wdw vacation out at sea? (or even their whole vacation). You can't take the Magic Kingdom with you on the ship. It's provided because it is something different. When Walt himself planned wdw, it was never just about the parks. His City of the Future was supposed to be the main attraction. A community that offers a little bit of everything for its population. Theme Parks, recreation, and a place to stay. Although that vision of Epcot never came to reality, the dream and the motive still lives on in wdw. It is a community that offers all of what I stated above. Disney World has always brought me joy, and it's unlike anything else I have ever been to, which that is why I continue on going back.