News Tron coaster coming to the Magic Kingdom

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
Toss in challenges related to foundation and change orders during design... It doesn't really surprise me too much.
Walt Disney World May be a swamp but it is hardly a new place to build. The coaster itself is not something that can receive change orders. The lead time on manufacturing means that the design does get locked down first and becomes the only thing that is sacred.
 

Absimilliard

Well-Known Member
Disney QA/QC standards and documentation, PDR/DR and related meetings and submitted documents certainly increase costs and were on level with or exceeded the federal / mil-std work I have seen.

Toss in challenges related to foundation and change orders during design... It doesn't really surprise me too much.

I can point to two Disneyland Paris roller coasters as to why they overengineer their rides now. First, Indiana Jones et le Temple du Peril is an Intamin looping coaster that was pegged as "temporary" and was soon plagued with structural issues. In 1999/2000, when they added the 12 passenger trains, they had to change quite a few track sections. Next, in 2014, the ride was closed and the temple made "permanent" with new materials and the track itself had a major change: the loop was unbolted and a specialised construction company from Germany came in to yank the loop out. They used a tall crane and they were able to move the loop vertically, not damaging the rest of the attraction. Vekoma in the meantime engineered and fabricated a new loop that fit in the same space, yet was able to take "Disney loads" and have a smoother shape. The same company came back, assembled the loop on the ground and then reinstalled the loop. Impressively, this whole refurb only took 5 months!

The second attraction that had major issues was Space Mountain: De la Terre a la Lune. The ride was originally delivered with 6 trains, five of which could run at the same time. Alas, the tight layout, high forces and extreme cycles meant that by 2000, a short 5 years after the ride opened, the train chassis had to be replaced. The original chassis sourced by Disney were unable to take the loads and Vekoma designed and fabricated new weldless chassis. The idea here was that by minimizing welds as much as possible and by using bolts and large cast steel pieces, they would have more durable chassis. It worked with one slight issue: the new chassis were heavier than the old ones and it caused timing issues on the ride. Basically, when running 3 trains on one station or 5 trains on two stations then, the new trains would catch up to the old ones and cause ride breakdowns. As the old car shells were recycled and just bolted on top of the new chassis, the solution to keep the last row empty? Grab large Mickey and Minnie plushes and strap them in the back row. The cast members would keep the back row empty and when they spotted the two VIP guests, they would not send guests to fill it. Once all the trains were switched, Mickey and Minnie finally ended their endless rides.

In addition to the heavier cars, running five trains also put a ton of stress on the structure and when they did Mission 2 in 2005, the ride launch was reconfigured and removed the ability to run five trains. The most you can hope for now is two trains on one station or four trains on two stations. After that, Disney moved to the current specs that exceed anything you can imagine of and the rides are now able to take the cycles without complaining.

One perfect example of the overengineering is Expedition Everest. Did you know it was originally designed to run four trains at once? Since it has the best cast members on property and after carefully examining the design and testing, Disney was able to buy an extra train. It can now run five trains at once, giving it even more capacity and I have to say this: GREAT JOB DISNEY!
 

Voxel

President of Progress City
The cost to purchase the coaster, get it shipped in from Europe and built should not exceed $30 million. That means the big box and roof are what is costing hundreds of millions of dollars. Hundreds of millions of dollars. That is not good for anyone.
I fear that contractors treat Disney like they treat government contracts, they know they don't have many options and there is alot of money in the piggy banks so they double or triple their rate for that clientele.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
I fear that contractors treat Disney like they treat government contracts, they know they don't have many options and there is alot of money in the piggy banks so they double or triple their rate for that clientele.
Construction costs aren’t some big secret. There is lots of data available and Disney would know if they are getting a bad deal.
 

Voxel

President of Progress City
Construction costs aren’t some big secret. There is lots of data available and Disney would know if they are getting a bad deal.
True, but if all contractors treat Disney like that there is nothing Disney can do. I mean every small business contractor I know opening admit to charging the government three times more for the job because they know every over business will do it and because they have the money to pay it.
 

DisneyDodo

Well-Known Member
I would assume that if Disney's high up-front costs are a result of over-engineering, we should see some long term benefits in terms of maintenance costs, frequency of breakdowns or safety incidents, total lifetime, etc. Is there any evidence to suggest that Disney realizes such gains?
 

deeevo

Well-Known Member
True, but if all contractors treat Disney like that there is nothing Disney can do. I mean every small business contractor I know opening admit to charging the government three times more for the job because they know every over business will do it and because they have the money to pay it.
In all fairness the government brings a lot of the additional cost and over run charges on themselves with their ridiculousness requirements and bureaucratic red tape. It always takes 3 times the amount of money and twice as long to build them anything. Wait.... that sounds like...
 

jmuboy

Well-Known Member
I would assume that if Disney's high up-front costs are a result of over-engineering, we should see some long term benefits in terms of maintenance costs, frequency of breakdowns or safety incidents, total lifetime, etc. Is there any evidence to suggest that Disney realizes such gains?

Take show elements out of the discussion and only consider the ride systems alone. Disney operates their rides longer (hours per day and number of days a year) than almost any other similar company with similar rides from the same manufacturers. Cedar Fair, 6 Flags, Busch, etc have downtime in the winter where they can tear down rides and refurbish them (many of the often called "carnival rides" are taken completely down and coaster trains removed and completely rebuilt ). This also allows repairs, weld work and other fixes to take place on the tracks, flumes, central hubs (for spinners), etc. Disney does not have the luxury of time of reduced capacity. They must have as much capacity a ride system can produce for as many days as possible. They need 365 days a year from their rides and they need to be built to "indestructible" tank-like standards. this leads to less maintenance upkeep work on a daily basis and lees annual downtime in the long term. Over building it a long game play - so to speak - with Disney spending now to gain a longer life with less maintenance required in the long run. I support all of this from a business standpoint for Disney to do.

However you'd expect an overbuilt TRON that costs 20-25 million for Cedar Fair or 6 Flags at the extreme end would cost Disney no more than double that, around $40-50 million. So where is the other $200 to $250 million that Disney is spending on this project going??? Its still crazy how much money and time is wasted at Disney on these park construction projects. I would expect Disney should get TRON built at DISNEY level quality theming and over built to DISNEY level "indestructible" specs and to still only cost $100 to $125 million to build in Florida. Throw in another $25 million for Speedway changes (again.....wayyyy over generous) and you might get to $150 million in what appears as a reasonable budget. That's only about 50%-60% of the rumored current TRON budget.

Mind Blown!!!!
 

Voxel

President of Progress City
In all fairness the government brings a lot of the additional cost and over run charges on themselves with their ridiculousness requirements and bureaucratic red tape. It always takes 3 times the amount of money and twice as long to build them anything. Wait.... that sounds like...
Oh very true, but i'm not talking about that part of contracting work. I was thinking more along the lines of the little guys who install garage doors, or lights, etc. Many of those guys may charge $50k for a garage door installation for a walmart warehouse but when the government comes knocking (or say Disney if they do the same) that price is immediately $150k - $200k.
 

GCTales

Well-Known Member
Walt Disney World May be a swamp but it is hardly a new place to build. The coaster itself is not something that can receive change orders. The lead time on manufacturing means that the design does get locked down first and becomes the only thing that is sacred.

I beg to differ.

I have direct experience involving manufacture of more than one ride for Disney and all have been subject to change orders. One, in particular had challenges building in the swamp vs where it would normally be built with a foundation dug down into and tied into bedrock.

I know people who have been involved in the design and manufacture of coasters and they Do get change orders.

Not common.. But it does happen.
 

EricsBiscuit

Well-Known Member
In the book Disney War one of Michael Eisner's ideas was that a tight budget leads to a better project. And it's worth discussing how that would apply here. I think if Imagineers had tighter (not necessarily smaller) budgets then they'd do things "bigger, better, faster, cheaper."
 

larryz

I'm Just A Tourist!
Premium Member
In the book Disney War one of Michael Eisner's ideas was that a tight budget leads to a better project. And it's worth discussing how that would apply here. I think if Imagineers had tighter (not necessarily smaller) budgets then they'd do things "bigger, better, faster, cheaper."
And didn't Bill Gates once ask why anyone would ever need more than 640K of RAM?
 

ᗩLᘿᑕ ✨ ᗩζᗩᗰ

HOUSE OF MAGIC
Premium Member
In the book Disney War one of Michael Eisner's ideas was that a tight budget leads to a better project. And it's worth discussing how that would apply here. I think if Imagineers had tighter (not necessarily smaller) budgets then they'd do things "bigger, better, faster, cheaper."

It's an exercise in value-engineering. Somewhat good for creative thinking but constrains execution. Putting cost at the forefront regardless of good intentions turns projects into shoestring budgeted versions of themselves. That's dangerously close to the "Why have physical props when we can do the same thing with screenz?" thinking.
 

EricsBiscuit

Well-Known Member
It's an exercise in value-engineering. Somewhat good for creative thinking but constrains execution. Putting cost at the forefront regardless of good intentions turns projects into shoestring budgeted versions of themselves. That's dangerously close to the "Why have physical props when we can do the same thing with screenz?" thinking.
What I mean is saying "here's XXX amount but don't expect anymore."
 

deeevo

Well-Known Member
Oh very true, but i'm not talking about that part of contracting work. I was thinking more along the lines of the little guys who install garage doors, or lights, etc. Many of those guys may charge $50k for a garage door installation for a walmart warehouse but when the government comes knocking (or say Disney if they do the same) that price is immediately $150k - $200k.
Ah yes... I was referring to contracting work but I would totally see how that would happen.
 

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