Trespassing third parties

[Splash4eva]

Passholders break rules all the time with the reselling of items and abusing their discounts. Thats profit for Disney so they dont care.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

A Reddit search shows a lot of these guys just keep track of the kids and bags and strollers and stuff while people enjoy the parks. I wonder if they’re cracking down on that type of service as well.

Maybe Disney security can start profiling guests and make sure to trespass babysitters, nurses, and other personal assistants as well.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I went back and edited, I looked into a few places. It was Sunsational Swim.

The place that’s main page says “Get Private Swimming Lessons at Home”? Hiring someone to come to your home is granting them permission. And yes, if they’re a reputable provider, they’re going to have you sign agreements and waivers.

 

[Chip Chipperson]

A Reddit search shows a lot of these guys just keep track of the kids and bags and strollers and stuff while people enjoy the parks. I wonder if they’re cracking down on that type of service as well.

If someone is operating solely as a nanny then Disney might not care as much since they don't offer childcare services themselves and enty of people have nannies that they take on vacation with them. It's a but harder to enforce than acting as a tour guide. They might care, but stopping it could be more difficult.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Anytime Fitness open 24/7 with minimal staffing during the day, rest of day and all night no staffing , just members working out some with their own personal trainers. See no evil , hear no evil, speak no evil.

Breaking the rules is breaking the rules. Anytime Fitness does not just allow anyone to show up and act as a personal trainer.

Passholders break rules all the time with the reselling of items and abusing their discounts. Thats profit for Disney so they dont care.

There are people who have been punished for that as well.

 

[DisneyHead123]

The place that’s main page says “Get Private Swimming Lessons at Home”? Hiring someone to come to your home is granting them permission. And yes, if they’re a reputable provider, they’re going to have you sign agreements and waivers.

They don’t just do home pools, they were going to meet us at our community private pool. (Couldn’t find someone in our area, unfortunately.) I believe their website says as much or I wouldn’t have contacted them.

At any rate… I think the general point here is that third party providers are situation specific. You can sometimes bring a private party planner to locations that offer their own party services, for example, like children’s museums. If you’re 100% always supposed to get written approval for that type of thing - ok, maybe, I wasn’t aware of that. But as an average kinda person, I think it’s fair to say that not everyone would reasonably be aware of this. I wouldn’t assume I needed a contract with my pool to bring an outside instructor to give lessons (our pool lifeguards are teenagers who lie in lounge chairs, so I think you could set up a merch kiosk in there and they wouldn’t care.) I wouldn’t assume Ear For Each Other CMs needed a contract with Disney to do in-room decorations, or that I needed written permission from the children’s museum to bring in a party planner when I’m well aware other families do this all the time.

Again, none of this is from a legal standpoint. It’s from a human, “Do I, personally, feel Disney was unkind here.” standpoint.

 

[Lilofan]

Breaking the rules is breaking the rules. Anytime Fitness does not just allow anyone to show up and act as a personal trainer.

AF not doing anything about it, personal training happening when staff not present . One thing to say, the other to enforce.

 

[Chip Chipperson]

They don’t just do home pools, they were going to meet us at our community private pool. (Couldn’t find someone in our area, unfortunately.) I believe their website says as much or I wouldn’t have contacted them.

At any rate… I think the general point here is that third party providers are situation specific. You can sometimes bring a private party planner to locations that offer their own party services, for example, like children’s museums. If you’re 100% always supposed to get written approval for that type of thing - ok, maybe, I wasn’t aware of that. But as an average kinda person, I think it’s fair to say that not everyone would reasonably be aware of this. I wouldn’t assume I needed a contract with my pool to bring an outside instructor to give lessons (our pool lifeguards are teenagers who lie in lounge chairs, so I think you could set up a merch kiosk in there and they wouldn’t care.) I wouldn’t assume Ear For Each Other CMs needed a contract with Disney to do in-room decorations, or that I needed written permission from the children’s museum to bring in a party planner when I’m well aware other families do this all the time.

Again, none of this is from a legal standpoint. It’s from a human, “Do I, personally, feel Disney was unkind here.” standpoint.

I think the big issue is that it is up to the person operating a business on someone else's property to verify whether it's allowed. The default stance should NEVER be, "I assumed I could do it." There's no logical reason to assume that.

Your swim instructor may have offered to give lessons at your community pool, but that doesn't necessarily mean it was okay for them to do so. Not getting caught doesn't equal being allowed to do something. If they needed permission and were kicked out then they can't blame to pool operators.

 

[lazyboy97o]

They don’t just do home pools, they were going to meet us at our community private pool. (Couldn’t find someone in our area, unfortunately.) I believe their website says as much or I wouldn’t have contacted them.

At any rate… I think the general point here is that third party providers are situation specific. You can sometimes bring a private party planner to locations that offer their own party services, for example, like children’s museums. If you’re 100% always supposed to get written approval for that type of thing - ok, maybe, I wasn’t aware of that. But as an average kinda person, I think it’s fair to say that not everyone would reasonably be aware of this. I wouldn’t assume I needed a contract with my pool to bring an outside instructor to give lessons (our pool lifeguards are teenagers who lie in lounge chairs, so I think you could set up a merch kiosk in there and they wouldn’t care.) I wouldn’t assume Ear For Each Other CMs needed a contract with Disney to do in-room decorations, or that I needed written permission from the children’s museum to bring in a party planner when I’m well aware other families do this all the time.

Again, none of this is from a legal standpoint. It’s from a human, “Do I, personally, feel Disney was unkind here.” standpoint.

There’s a whole page on their website where they tell you to get permission if it’s not your pool because you could be kicked out.

Can I register if I don't have a pool? - Sunsational Swim School Support

If you do not have pool access, you may still register without a pool location. We will work to see if any instructors within your desired driving radius have p

support.sunsationalswimschool.com

Yes, many places will allow third parties to come in and do work, sometimes even for services they offer. The way you know whether or not that is the case is by asking permission beforehand. A good party planner is going to know the venues that require the use of their services, but if they don’t, yes, it would be foolish to hire the planner, rent the venue and not check the venues rules on what you’re allowed to do there.

 

[EeyoreFan#24]

Halfway joking and halfway not. I’m not sure who I’d rather be on the wrong side of. Disney Security or an HOA board member on pool patrol.

 

[Bullseye1967]

He is (or was, more accurately at this point) a Disney Certified Travel Agent. He says so on his own website. That's why he was invited to those events (along with enty of other similar travel agents). His tours played no role in that. If Disney was okay with his tours and seeing some sort of benefit from them then they wouldn't have banned him (without warning according to him).

He bragged in the article about bringing in "high-end" customers who spend money. Well, as a Certified Disney Travel Agent, it was his responsibility to know that he shouldn't have been trying to undercut Disney's services by offering his own unauthorized version. He should have informed them about the VIP Tours and let them decide whether or not they wanted to pay for it. If not, he could have offered tips, tricks, and services within the rules. He could have offered to try to book their ILLs and first G+ selections at 7 AM if they wanted to sleep in and not have to plan as much. Simply saying, "My clients ate expensive meals instead of hot dogs," is not a valid justification for his actions. He broke the rules both as a passholder and a Disney-approved travel agent.

He did not start selling travel as a part of his service until 2016. He was invited to events from the start in 2010/11. When asked him how he got on the list of invitees, he responded that Disney reached out to him. This was at the AoA grand opening in 2012. Your version still doesn't hold water. It is not just travel agents. How many vloggers do you see at those events?

 

[Chip Chipperson]

He did not start selling travel as a part of his service until 2016. He was invited to events from the start in 2010/11. When asked him how he got on the list of invitees, he responded that Disney reached out to him. This was at the AoA grand opening in 2012. Your version still doesn't hold water. It is not just travel agents. How many vloggers do you see at those events?

Of course vloggers get invited to these things, too. So do blogs/website operators. So do traditional media. Speaking of vloggers, there are cases of them having their privilege of attending such events revoked (Trackers, temporarily, for example) or being banned for breaking the rules (Adam the Woo for a while). In the case of Adam the Woo, he was breaking the rules while on property. He didn't get caught in the act and likely thought he had gotten away with it at the time. Eventually, the right person at WDW (or the wrong person for Adam) caught wind of it and had him banned. The same deal with him, he was stopped at the gate, pulled aside, and given a trespass notice. So if this Ramon guy had any social media presence then he would have had a chance to make their list of invitees with other vloggers, bloggers, and "influencers." That was probably boosted by having connections from his prior employment there. His inclusion is not proof that the person tasked with deciding to ban a guest knew he was breaking the rules and was okay with it.

 

[Bullseye1967]

Of course vloggers get invited to these things, too. So do blogs/website operators. So do traditional media. Speaking of vloggers, there are cases of them having their privilege of attending such events revoked (Trackers, temporarily, for example) or being banned for breaking the rules (Adam the Woo for a while). In the case of Adam the Woo, he was breaking the rules while on property. He didn't get caught in the act and likely thought he had gotten away with it at the time. Eventually, the right person at WDW (or the wrong person for Adam) caught wind of it and had him banned. The same deal with him, he was stopped at the gate, pulled aside, and given a trespass notice. So if this Ramon guy had any social media presence then he would have had a chance to make their list of invitees with other vloggers, bloggers, and "influencers." That was probably boosted by having connections from his prior employment there. His inclusion is not proof that the person tasked with deciding to ban a guest knew he was breaking the rules and was okay with it.

It is also true that you don't know if the person in charge knew it was going on, and allowed it until someone changed their mind. I have stated several times that Disney absolutely has the right to change their policies. I just don't buy the whole they didn't know what was going on. Either way they handled it badly.

 

[DisneyHead123]

There’s a whole page on their website where they tell you to get permission if it’s not your pool because you could be kicked out.

Can I register if I don't have a pool? - Sunsational Swim School Support

If you do not have pool access, you may still register without a pool location. We will work to see if any instructors within your desired driving radius have p

support.sunsationalswimschool.com

Yes, many places will allow third parties to come in and do work, sometimes even for services they offer. The way you know whether or not that is the case is by asking permission beforehand. A good party planner is going to know the venues that require the use of their services, but if they don’t, yes, it would be foolish to hire the planner, rent the venue and not check the venues rules on what you’re allowed to do there.

I disagree, but we’ll have to leave it at that. In my area, it wouldn’t be a big thing to bring a private swim instructor to a local pool (or mine, at least,) a trainer to (some) gyms, a party planner to a venue that you knew other families had brought party planners to, and so on. Some families might think to check, others wouldn’t. (The page on the swim site saying instructors have gotten kicked out of pools? I think that actually speaks to the fact that, clearly, many people didn’t know they needed to check. As in, not common knowledge.) Can you find fine print that says you should 100%, always, check? Sure. But is this common knowledge? Again, in my area I would say not necessarily. And it’s the common knowledge factor that I’m talking about here. I can absolutely see how these people doing tours at Disney could (possibly) in good faith not have realized they were doing anything wrong. Your view appears to be that 1. They had to know they were doing something wrong or, 2. In the unlikely event that they didn’t, it was unreasonable for them not to know. Again, I just disagree.

 

[DisneyHead123]

I think the big issue is that it is up to the person operating a business on someone else's property to verify whether it's allowed. The default stance should NEVER be, "I assumed I could do it." There's no logical reason to assume that.

In reality, we all make some assumptions in everyday life. So I’m not going to say that making any assumption, ever, is morally damning. It’s more if it’s a reasonable or unreasonable assumption. People’s opinions will vary on that, as this thread clearly shows. I’m not willing to say these people were willfully doing something wrong or just really out of bounds in terms of reasonable assumptions, based on what I know of this case. Maybe they were, but maybe they were just enthusiastic fans who didn’t realize they were doing anything wrong.

 

[AEfx]

LOL, these guys knew EXACTLY what they are doing. None of them are so stupid as to not know this was a shady operation to begin with, and that conducting unauthorized paid tours in a theme park (particularly one that offers their own) was not a legitimate business.

Like many who do this sort of thing (suddenly make all kinds of money on something they know isn't on the up and up) they knew it, even if they lied to themselves about it. And as inevitably happens, people get too greedy, out of control, and push things too far until they invite too much attention and then suddenly it's gone. (They really should be mad mostly at themselves, but they also should be giving side eye to the idiots who literally paid google to promote them as a competitor.)

Here is a life hint: if you suddenly find yourself making hundreds of thousands of dollars on a "business" that wholly depends on another business or authority to look the other way, it's not going to end well.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I disagree, but we’ll have to leave it at that. In my area, it wouldn’t be a big thing to bring a private swim instructor to a local pool (or mine, at least,) a trainer to (some) gyms, a party planner to a venue that you knew other families had brought party planners to, and so on. Some families might think to check, others wouldn’t. (The page on the swim site saying instructors have gotten kicked out of pools? I think that actually speaks to the fact that, clearly, many people didn’t know they needed to check. As in, not common knowledge.) Can you find fine print that says you should 100%, always, check? Sure. But is this common knowledge? Again, in my area I would say not necessarily. And it’s the common knowledge factor that I’m talking about here. I can absolutely see how these people doing tours at Disney could (possibly) in good faith not have realized they were doing anything wrong. Your view appears to be that 1. They had to know they were doing something wrong or, 2. In the unlikely event that they didn’t, it was unreasonable for them not to know. Again, I just disagree.

My position is that we all learned that you’re not supposed to use someone else’s things without asking when we were very little. Everything else is just rationalization for what we know are poor decisions.

 

[SingleRider]

AF not doing anything about it, personal training happening when staff not present . One thing to say, the other to enforce.

The office building I work in has a fitness center that doesn’t allow anyone to bring in personal trainers - and they don’t have any trainers of their own.

 

["El Gran Magnifico"]

LOL, these guys knew EXACTLY what they are doing. None of them are so stupid as to not know this was a shady operation to begin with, and that conducting unauthorized paid tours in a theme park (particularly one that offers their own) was not a legitimate business.

Like many who do this sort of thing (suddenly make all kinds of money on something they know isn't on the up and up) they knew it, even if they lied to themselves about it. And as inevitably happens, people get too greedy, out of control, and push things too far until they invite too much attention and then suddenly it's gone. (They really should be mad mostly at themselves, but they also should be giving side eye to the idiots who literally paid google to promote them as a competitor.)

Here is a life hint: if you suddenly find yourself making hundreds of thousands of dollars on a "business" that wholly depends on another business or authority to look the other way, it's not going to end well.

It’s also a lot easier to ask for forgiveness than it is for permission. So ride it as long as it’ll take you. Then say “My bad. Sorry”.

 

[G&CsMom]

I think I know which couple you're referring to. Two weeks ago they canceled all of their YouTube memberships and posted a cryptic message to the community. There haven't been any videos or messages since then. If it is them, they made an unfortunate choice. Especially since they moved to Orlando specifically in order to fulfill their Disney dream. Their vlogs were popular. Was it necessary to begin acting as a 3rd-party guide? Incidentally, the 3rd-party VIP guide service that this couple links to on their website has immediately ceased operation.

Yup, that's the couple. It all started being cryptic the day they were supposed to do a livestream on It's a Small World for charity. On the day, it never went live and their communications stopped until the YT memberships were cancelled and they had a post saying that it was intentional and apologized that it was sudden. I am curious if they were given a warning officially or a "heads up" on the sly from a CM. I saw that VIP Tour company the husband worked for is out of business. I am curious if A--He was banned or B--They stopped any and all rule violations to avoid the ban. *IF* they were banned, what will happen to the funds that were raised/items bought for the Christmas CM treat bags? What will happen to their group cruise on the Fantasy next month?