Transformative Multi-Year Expansion Announced for WDS Paris

theRealist

New Member
I’d take a Discoveryland themed Soarin over a mini Star Wars Land in Discoveryland. But a none Disney IP attraction being seriously considered? I think those days are over.
They could create Soarin' over Pandora for Discoveryland.
Compared to FoP (+ an entire land), it would be a fast and cheap way to give DLP an Avatar experience. Disney has one certainty for DLP throughout the years: let's make it as cheap as we can.

So they backside of the land would be IP based outer space adventures with Star Wars and Avatar.
 

theRealist

New Member
After the first movie and the long break, ok. But after the success of the sequel - in particular in France & other European countries? If they are smart and seriously consider to add a Pandora experience to WDS, they should have it open before part four comes out in 2029.


I think that's one of the main reasons why I am bothered with the LK replacement. It seems like it is basically again a cost cutting exercise removing the one attraction from the 2 billions expansion plan that would have added something exceptional and unique for Europe. If they at least were to add something with the same scale and quality. FoP is one of the few existing attractions that could take that spot. A Splash Mt. in Adventureland on the other hand (LK or even better Jungle Book) - great!


I agree that the future of the Star Wars franchise is a bit uncertain in terms of direction right now. The lesson learned from SW:GE was that they should not have blocked themselves into a limited timeframe to only focus on a few characters. That could be easily fixed for anything they are planning to build in DLP.

But wasn't the rumour for this expansion to open around 2028? They would have to finalise their plans before 2025 for it to open by then.

Personally I would even prefer them building an exclusive attraction going back to the original Discoveryland theme. Bring back Timekeeper & Nine-Eye for a new attraction to travel the world using some of the new Sphere 18k screen technology from Las Vegas. Soarin itself would already be a bit outdated for many European guests.
I think they're scared that Avatar's popularity might crash after a bad 3rd or 4th movie. With Star Wars they had a very successful return with Force Awakens and Rogue One, but then they released The Last Jedi that send the SW popularity into a downward spiral. So they're gonna let Avatar prove its long term staying power.

My hope is that they redesign GE completely and that they build a SW land that is a home for all 3 trilogy's. Keep RotR but with Luke, Leia, Han and Lando fighting against Darth Vader and the Emperor.

In Adventureland I would get rid of Temple of Peril. And then on all the land available they should build a new huge coaster like Hong Kong's Grizzly Mine, but it would go through a massive temple and jungle.

Unfortunately DLP usually gets cost cutting expansions:
- Avengers Campus looks great compared to the Backlot, but does not live up to its possibilities. Get rid of Stunt Arena, and build a 3rd attraction!
- Frozen should always have gotten a 2nd ride: a Frozen themed coaster based on Expedition Everest.
- In stead of Cars Road Trip, that location was perfect for either Pooh's Honey Hunt or Toy Story Mania (for both: the Tokyo versions).
 

mrflo

Well-Known Member
They could create Soarin' over Pandora for Discoveryland.
Compared to FoP (+ an entire land), it would be a fast and cheap way to give DLP an Avatar experience. Disney has one certainty for DLP throughout the years: let's make it as cheap as we can.
They could but I strongly hope that they do not. One of the things that sets FoP apart and above the Soarin ride system - that you can now already find in many European parks - is the addition of the special ride seat. Maybe they will come up with something different for the DLR that can be copied for DLP, too. But the last things DLP needs is applying the "Mickey's PhilharMagic" in Discoveryland downgrade approach for major new attractions. If DLP really will get all those additional billions in the next decade, this should not be necessary anyway.

I think they're scared that Avatar's popularity might crash after a bad 3rd or 4th movie. With Star Wars they had a very successful return with Force Awakens and Rogue One, but then they released The Last Jedi that send the SW popularity into a downward spiral. So they're gonna let Avatar prove its long term staying power.
Are those Avatar concerns based on actual facts & real discussion that you know of or based on your own assumptions?

The Star Wars sequels were rushed and had no master plan. The different filmmakers even started undoing storyline decisions between each episode. James Cameron spent many years writing the full story including for all of the upcoming movies. The studio already knows very well where the Avatar franchise is heading and seems quite excited about it. Disney probably wants to spread out the Pandora movies over as many years as possible and give JC all the time he & his teams needs to deliver the same high quality as the previous ones. Don't forget that Bob Iger already has announced an Avatar experience for DLR.
 

Sir_Cliff

Well-Known Member
Maybe they will come up with something different for the DLR that can be copied for DLP, too.
Yes, this was my thought: Didn't Iger say there were coming up with some kind of new Avatar 'experience' for DLR? If that's still on and is more than just a meet-and-greet, maybe they can make it a shared project between the two resorts as a way to both bump up the ambition and create something original that doesn't require an entire new land.
 

cjkeating

Well-Known Member
A few general points on the current discussion...

ROTR is a nightmare of an attraction to operate so I can't see why DLP would want to have it. It takes so many cast members to run, it's highly unreliable with multiple hours of downtime each day and neither WDW or DLR are able to maintain the ride so it is show ready.

FOP does also take a signifiant number of cast members to operate but it come with flexibility to operate less theatres when (or if) demand is lower in DLPs off-peaks, it's reliable as it has the resilience of four theatres and maintenance is easier to do as one theatre can be taken offline. Also the FOP ride has no dialect (except Sivako!) so is perfect for a multilingual park.

Unfortunately DLP usually gets cost cutting expansions:
- Avengers Campus looks great compared to the Backlot, but does not live up to its possibilities. Get rid of Stunt Arena, and build a 3rd attraction!
- Frozen should always have gotten a 2nd ride: a Frozen themed coaster based on Expedition Everest.
- In stead of Cars Road Trip, that location was perfect for either Pooh's Honey Hunt or Toy Story Mania (for both: the Tokyo versions).

Also it bothers me that many people on here mistake 'working within budget' for 'cost cutting'... a third AC attraction, Frozen 2nd ride and something other than Cars Road Trip was never in the WDSP 2.0 budget.
 

marni1971

Park History nut
Premium Member
A few general points on the current discussion...

ROTR is a nightmare of an attraction to operate so I can't see why DLP would want to have it. It takes so many cast members to run, it's highly unreliable with multiple hours of downtime each day and neither WDW or DLR are able to maintain the ride so it is show ready.

FOP does also take a signifiant number of cast members to operate but it come with flexibility to operate less theatres when (or if) demand is lower in DLPs off-peaks, it's reliable as it has the resilience of four theatres and maintenance is easier to do as one theatre can be taken offline. Also the FOP ride has no dialect (except Sivako!) so is perfect for a multilingual park.
One of my biggest regrets over no Rise would be the sheer amount of captive audience being entertained for such a long time. Once past merge there’s a good 20-30 minutes of a fully immersive environment. Something the park could do with.
 

theRealist

New Member
A few general points on the current discussion...

ROTR is a nightmare of an attraction to operate so I can't see why DLP would want to have it. It takes so many cast members to run, it's highly unreliable with multiple hours of downtime each day and neither WDW or DLR are able to maintain the ride so it is show ready.

FOP does also take a signifiant number of cast members to operate but it come with flexibility to operate less theatres when (or if) demand is lower in DLPs off-peaks, it's reliable as it has the resilience of four theatres and maintenance is easier to do as one theatre can be taken offline. Also the FOP ride has no dialect (except Sivako!) so is perfect for a multilingual park.



Also it bothers me that many people on here mistake 'working within budget' for 'cost cutting'... a third AC attraction, Frozen 2nd ride and something other than Cars Road Trip was never in the WDSP 2.0 budget.
"It was never in the budget"
This is the perfect summary why the 'big expansion' of WDS is so disappointing.

All WDS got was a poorly rethemed Tram Tour, an underwhelmingly rebranded RnRcoaster, and a very bland Spiderman attraction.

What's next? Two attractions and a lot of paving and landscaping. To be fair, DLP's paving and gardening departments are second to none.

And there'll be a lake ... that takes the space of two potential mini-lands. Of course, it's cheaper to build a lake. But smart? Not really. It's gonna be a fun walk from Studio 1 to Frozen when it's raining, of when there'll be ice cold winds.

The budget needed to be a lot higher from day 1. Like so often happens in DLP: will it be an improvement? Yes. Will it be impressive? Nope.
 

marni1971

Park History nut
Premium Member
"It was never in the budget"
This is the perfect summary why the 'big expansion' of WDS is so disappointing.

All WDS got was a poorly rethemed Tram Tour, an underwhelmingly rebranded RnRcoaster, and a very bland Spiderman attraction.

What's next? Two attractions and a lot of paving and landscaping. To be fair, DLP's paving and gardening departments are second to none.

And there'll be a lake ... that takes the space of two potential mini-lands. Of course, it's cheaper to build a lake. But smart? Not really. It's gonna be a fun walk from Studio 1 to Frozen when it's raining, of when there'll be ice cold winds.

The budget needed to be a lot higher from day 1. Like so often happens in DLP: will it be an improvement? Yes. Will it be impressive? Nope.
Apart from placesetting the primary reason for the lake is for a purpose built night entertainment environment. As the park moves to a full day destination it’s a large piece of the jigsaw.
 

BrianLo

Well-Known Member
The lake is a perfectly good idea. It provides a venue for a night spectacular AND still contributes to placemaking and the broader feel of the park. Unlike say Fantasmic in DHS that is empty all day long.

It also critically stops making the park feel like it is merely a bunch of boxes dropped into a field or paved parking lot.

It's a bit laughable that with the first two movies each making over $2B, that one would think that there is a wait and see for any more Avatar attractions. Pandora was built on the success of tasty the first one.

Yes, Avatar is pretty well established as not a risky move at this point. I get the hesitancy of the DAK land (which was a success) and the hesitancy around the long delayed sequel (which was basically France's biggest movie of all time corrected for the exchange rate). Iger is a long champion of Avatar/Pandora.

What do they need to wait for now exactly? By now it's a safe move. A 15 year old franchise that was just last year tested with the French/European audiences again, to resounding success.
 

WoundedDreamer

Well-Known Member
The lake is a perfectly good idea. It provides a venue for a night spectacular AND still contributes to placemaking and the broader feel of the park. Unlike say Fantasmic in DHS that is empty all day long.

It also critically stops making the park feel like it is merely a bunch of boxes dropped into a field or paved parking lot.



Yes, Avatar is pretty well established as not a risky move at this point. I get the hesitancy of the DAK land (which was a success) and the hesitancy around the long delayed sequel (which was basically France's biggest movie of all time corrected for the exchange rate). Iger is a long champion of Avatar/Pandora.

What do they need to wait for now exactly? By now it's a safe move. A 15 year old franchise that was just last year tested with the French/European audiences again, to resounding success.
I concur with your outlook. It reminds me of what Disney was doing at Disney's California Adventure early on. As DCA struggled, Disney responded by green lighting a series of hastily built additions. Most prominently, a Bugs Land and Tower of Terror came out of this fraught time. Both those attractions were successful, but they failed to fundamentally transform the park's prospects. Why? Because the park was structurally flawed. The placemaking and circulation were poor. Good rides and IP connections were not enough to change the problems faced by DCA. What was needed was a more fundamental transformation. One that did involve additional rides, but not exclusively rides.

It's honestly the opposite problem faced by DAK upon opening, which had fantastic placemaking but a dismal portfolio of rides. In that case, building rides really was what was needed.

It is unfortunate that a significant amount of WDS's budget is going to a lake, a promenade, and fixing other problems that shouldn't have existed in the first place. But it is absolutely necessary. Even beloved expansions to WDS like the Nemo Coaster, the Rat ride, and Tower of Terror were not enough to end the park's pain. A lake isn't as a flashy as a new E-Ticket, but by creating it they are fixing structural problems facing the park. This lake will address the woeful circulation of the park, add greenery and water, and make the park beautiful. And once it makes it through this, additional expansions will be much easier to implement. The lake opens up all sorts of opportunities for new lands.

If I was to critique a few elements of the project, it would probably be the order of operations, the speed of implementation, and choice of IP. Reskinning Rockin' Rollercoaster seems like it should have been down the list of priorities. One could easily argue back that it was low-hanging fruit and a way to have the park gain momentum rapidly. Perhaps it was a way to get something marketable while the more substantive expansion came later. Still, it strikes me as odd that they would devote resources to overhaul something that was successful over spending on something new. Of course, in the long run it will all be the same.

The speed of implementation really seems to be making people frustrated with this project. Myself included. And of course they have a good explanation with COVID. It's hard to argue with that. Hey, we can still be frustrated even if it's not totally rational! ;)

And then the choice of IP. This one seems the least defensible. The Pandora land seemed like a no brainer even in 2018. I was very surprised 5 years ago when they announced Star Wars over Pandora. By then Pandora had opened to great success at Disney's Animal Kingdom. Between France's affinity for Avatar and the huge success of Flight of Passage, it was really confusing. I've seen people point out that Pandora could easily have been brought indoors to create a constant bioluminescent environment. You could have essentially moved the floating mountains and Flight of Passage show building facade to be the facade for the indoor land. That way you still have good views on the lake. Then you go through a cave into the bioluminescent world. Shops, restaurants, placemaking, and queues all could have been in a temperature controlled environment safe from Parisian rain and snow.

But they chose Star Wars... Anyone who doubts how popular Avatar is in France has to look at the box office gross. It's insane. That one will never make sense to me. Sooner they can move forward with a Pandora land the better. An advantage is that spending on the Walt Disney Studios Park Pandora has the potential to benefit DAK's Pandora. Updates to ride technology, new food, placemaking, and effects can be shared. I hope they move forward with it!
 

Sennar

New Member
The entrance to the studios begins its "big" transformation. Disney announces that work will extend until spring 2025.
Can't wait to see the result...
 

Markiewong

Well-Known Member
I am guessing that it will change into a Pixar theme and the 'Toonstudio' name will disappear. So in the future the front part of the park will be Marvel, Hollywood and Pixar.
 

LondonTom

Well-Known Member
I am guessing that it will change into a Pixar theme and the 'Toonstudio' name will disappear. So in the future the front part of the park will be Marvel, Hollywood and Pixar.
I know its slightly different flyer system, but a version of DCA's Emotional Whirlwind could do the job here:

1698295106243.png
 

Markiewong

Well-Known Member
I know its slightly different flyer system, but a version of DCA's Emotional Whirlwind could do the job here:

View attachment 750937
This should be added, not replace the carpets. People really underestimate how important small rides like these are. The whole reason why Magic Kingdom can deal with 50.000 people but Hollywood Studios becomes a hellscape is due to the total capacity of Magic Kingdom being significant higher. Studios needs ten more A/B/C-tickets, shops, restaurants instead of another D/E-ticket to fledge out the park as a whole day park.
 

Kev1982

Well-Known Member
This should be added, not replace the carpets. People really underestimate how important small rides like these are. The whole reason why Magic Kingdom can deal with 50.000 people but Hollywood Studios becomes a hellscape is due to the total capacity of Magic Kingdom being significant higher. Studios needs ten more A/B/C-tickets, shops, restaurants instead of another D/E-ticket to fledge out the park as a whole day park.
Exactly. No more replacing, especially in WDSP, only adding. After this whole expansion, there still only will be 2 more rides than before. Although in the case of the carpets they should actually go to adventureland and be put in their proper setting.
 

LondonTom

Well-Known Member
This should be added, not replace the carpets. People really underestimate how important small rides like these are. The whole reason why Magic Kingdom can deal with 50.000 people but Hollywood Studios becomes a hellscape is due to the total capacity of Magic Kingdom being significant higher. Studios needs ten more A/B/C-tickets, shops, restaurants instead of another D/E-ticket to fledge out the park as a whole day park.
Oh I'd agree with that 100%, just if all we might get is a retheme to fit in with Pixar, its I think something based on the Emotional Whirlwind design could work well. (Actually wouldn't mind a Pixar Pier-style area (with a more cohesive theme) with a bunch of these smaller rides and sideshow games for WDSP on the lake.
 

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