And without FPs, the smart ones reduce their wait times. And those who don't do any advance planning and show up a 11 AM on a busy day are screwed. All without FPs coming into play.
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News Toy Story Mania to be available via standby queue ahead of entrance relocation
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And without FPs, the smart ones reduce their wait times. And those who don't do any advance planning and show up a 11 AM on a busy day are screwed. All without FPs coming into play.
Jenny72
Well-Known Member
Yes, you keep saying. I get it that showing up early helped before FP, (and it still does). I don't think you're going to budge even an inch on this, Mr Penguin, but I don't think you're actually addressing any of the specific issues that people are raising here. Do you want to talk about the actual things that Goofyerenmost brought up, or what I brought up about the smartphones? I would say there is a qualitative difference between showing up early as "gaming" the system, and all of the tricks one uses to game it now.
I've considered what you said and I regard it as incidentals that don't change the underlying problem. You seem to think that because I disagree with you that I have a personality deficiency of being obstinate. Perhaps I'm just right and you're the one who's wrong?
Sure some people don't have smartphones, but they have Internet access while planning and can get their first 3 FPs in advance and use the park kiosks for the rest of the day. If someone is so tech illiterate that they can't do that, then it's likely they won't know how to work a park without FPs because they won't be reading all the blogs with tips.
People who show up without any planning are screwed regardless of the existence or non-existence of FPs.
No, only when demand exceeds the current station capacity or a car isn’t immediately available.
The WEDway is the highest capacity attraction in WDW. When run as designed there would be a constantly moving line on busy days. A negligible one on quieter days.
I've seen it constantly moving *and* backed-up.
See my edit to my post.
We can also take into account social issues like guests not moving due to their face being buried in their phones / not paying attention.
Jenny72
Well-Known Member
No wonder their faces are buried in their smartphones -- they're trying to set up their next FP+ instead of relaxing!!!
The other issue is what Goofyerenmost brought up. Even if some people have always been screwed because of showing up late, etc., they didn't have to have it rubbed in their faces. It really does stink to be standing inert in line while people file past you.
I'd be very curious to measure the level of guest satisfaction with FP+. It's impossible to do, because it will depend on so many other conditions. I also think people will *say* they like FP+, because of course when you have it, it feels great. But when you don't, it stinks. I'd be willing to bet that overall it makes people more grumpy. It's a constant jockeying to be the one who gets to walk past others instead of being the one getting walked past. Combine that with higher levels of crowds, and the whole experience starts looking a bit Lord of the Flies -ish.
The other issue is what Goofyerenmost brought up. Even if some people have always been screwed because of showing up late, etc., they didn't have to have it rubbed in their faces. It really does stink to be standing inert in line while people file past you.
I'd be very curious to measure the level of guest satisfaction with FP+. It's impossible to do, because it will depend on so many other conditions. I also think people will *say* they like FP+, because of course when you have it, it feels great. But when you don't, it stinks. I'd be willing to bet that overall it makes people more grumpy. It's a constant jockeying to be the one who gets to walk past others instead of being the one getting walked past. Combine that with higher levels of crowds, and the whole experience starts looking a bit Lord of the Flies -ish.
Goofyernmost
Well-Known Member
Even if it still has long lines there is a psychological benefit that cannot be discounted. The difference in the level of enjoyment when you continually make progress toward the goal as opposed to being stopped by forces that you don't control and smash against every social negative that we have ever had. Wait your turn, you are told, don't cut the line, you are told, first come, first served is the ideally fair way to be, we are told. And then you spend thousands of dollars for a theme park experience and the part you remember most is standing stagnant in a hot line while others that couldn't be bothered to get there earlier cruise ahead of you and do all those things against what we were taught.
Why is that not important to a long range success in a business. I have said over and over that TWDC has ridden on the coattails and nostalgia of one Walter E. Disney where people go because they expect to have a good time and a fun vacation. Those memories of the frustration, those memories of wondering if they will get through this line in time to get to their ADR's required just to eat a decent meal, the anger of having their feet hurt and uncomfortable while watching the equivalent of a "teachers pet", prance in front of them and enjoy something that they have been waiting for and paying their dues to experience.
Those coattails are not going to last forever. Eventually, people will have forgotten Walt Disney or never did know who the hell he was and what he stood for, and find some other place to spend their money. Even those that might have been lucky enough to have that Golden Ticket called FP, will have to wait in lines for longer times because of others that do have them and they don't. If people just thought out what was actually happening, they would realize that they are gaining nothing at all. What time they gained with their precious 3 or 4 Fastpasses are more then lost if they desire to see other attractions. Plus what is lost is what used to be a fun experience free of angry frustration and upset. That did not exist before FP of any kind. It was pleasant, it was fun. Of course there were people that just generally lacked in any patience at all, they didn't go back or were conned into thinking that they gained something by having the few they were allowed.
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Goofyernmost
Well-Known Member
Equal only if Disney has thousands of phone lines and personnel manning them, There never has been a time when everyone had an equal opportunity to have one. Even when they had the machines, if every person were at the parks at the same time and went to the machines at the same time they were only available for the number of people that they had pre-determined would be issued.
That pile of crap about "everybody has equal opportunity" is one of the biggest Disney PR spins that for some reason no one questions. It is a flat out lie and always has been especially now with the need to set up 60 days ahead of time. People who attempt even a couple of minutes after their open time are not able to get many because everyone seems to forget that the days before they were taken by someone else that were getting there earlier. Some don't even have a chance. It is a stupid system, it always has been and there is no amount of evidence that there wasn't more negative then positive from the day of it's inception, it's just that people accept things without thinking about them. Now no matter how much it is disliked, generally, we have to use it or not get to see much.
I don't know how many years you have been going as an adult. I don't even begin to measure stuff like this based on a child's memory, but, I have stood, as an adult, in all those scenarios. I know the difference in feeling, I stood among people that after FP was instituted were angry and frustrated. I will repeat, people did b itch about it before, but, they were never angry, the goal was predictably in sight. I was so alarmed by the difference in crowd attitudes that I was moved to call Disney about it. Something I never did before or since. I am not going by what someone told me, I am going by real life experience. I can't make you believe it, but, I was there, I know the difference in feel. I also know that if that had been in existence there is a good chance that there would not have been enough enjoyment to counter the frustration. In other words, my first trip would have been one and done.
I'm just repeating myself here, so go ahead and do what ever you want, you don't have to pay any attention to me. I do know what I think is good and what I think is bad and I know why I think that way. So, since they are not going to change anything anytime soon, except, hopefully start charging for FP's, I will end my part of this discussion.
DinoInstitute
Well-Known Member
But it doesn’t actually create a longer line. It just changes where you’re waiting.
Yes, it does. The line is no longer constantly flowing when it’s stopped by the greeter. By its nature a stopped line is stationary. Joining the rear of it will lengthen the line instead of joining it and moving forwards.
Kman101
Well-Known Member
Kman101
Well-Known Member
Exactly. Do people not realize the standby line is often at a total standstill as FP holders bypass them?
Kman101
Well-Known Member
There's not much room at the top to queue up for it so it shouldn't be much of a surprise to see a bit of a line going down the ramp. Is the ramp still turned off?
Kman101
Well-Known Member
The PeopleMover is a case of the parks not having enough to do for the guests in the park. Other attractions have absolutely NOT benefitted from FP. So it's just a coincidence that the streets are more crowded at Disneyland and wait times have gone up after introducing MaxPass to Disneyland? To attractions that shouldn't have it. There was definitely a shift. So I do believe FP has impacted wait times.
But so has crowding. So has lack of capacity. It all plays a role. Some want to blame one thing and fervently defend the other, but it's all of the above, plus under-staffing at times, etc. It's a lot of things.
Do I think if FP went away, would certain rides go back to walk-on status? No, because it's busier. That's just a fact. But if the parks had enough capacity and one line every guest got into, I think wait times would be a lot more reasonable.
But so has crowding. So has lack of capacity. It all plays a role. Some want to blame one thing and fervently defend the other, but it's all of the above, plus under-staffing at times, etc. It's a lot of things.
Do I think if FP went away, would certain rides go back to walk-on status? No, because it's busier. That's just a fact. But if the parks had enough capacity and one line every guest got into, I think wait times would be a lot more reasonable.
Purduevian
Well-Known Member
Yes the line is physically longer (more people at the bottom of the ramp), but I don't see how this makes the wait time to ride longer. As long as the same number of people get in line and no vehicles leave with empty spots. There is a better feeling to constantly moving vs start/stop, but at the end of the day I don't get to the ride any faster either way. Or am I missing something?
disneygeek90
Well-Known Member
Who says you need a smart phone? You obviously have access to internet, all Fastpasses can be made online in minutes before you are even on property.
DinoInstitute
Well-Known Member
Yes, I agree with all of that, but what I’m saying is that that doesn’t change the physical length of time you’re waiting (assuming they’re still boarding at full capacity). While it may feel different psychologically, it doesn’t matter whether you’re waiting standing still or constantly flowing; you’ll get on the ride at the same point, they can’t load any faster.
meyeet
Well-Known Member
Once you have scanned for your third FP ride at the first entry post, you are able to search and grab another FP for your next ride. That would be impossible to do without a smart phone.