Toy Story Land expansion announced for Disney's Hollywood Studios

[Casper Gutman]

All the things you pointed out is getting a good go-of in TSL. Everywhere you look you'll see giant toys and games. Giant yard and fence. Giant coaster built by a young boy. This fits your criteria of properly themed.

The ones I've been arguing against add specific criteria: They say everything has to be perfectly scaled. Is that what Morocco does? Or does it use sliding scales for forced perspective?

They say you shouldn't be able to see out of the land (the top of Slinky issue). And yet, when you're in Morocco, aren't there places you can see out of it and into Future World?

They say that a 'bare' coaster is just so cheap that it just completely ruins everything. I don't have a Morocco parallel to this, but, the coaster is themed to a child's playset coaster. But that's not good enough.

TSL is not properly themed in their opinion because of these things.

It is properly themed in my opinion. Certainly not at the level of Potterlands or Pandora or SWL, but perfectly acceptable. But what I just said here is their jumping off point for saying that it's not good enough unless it hits the highest level in all criteria and anything less is pure carp and unacceptable. So, yes, they are making the point that it fails compared to perfection... which everything does because nothing is perfect.

Every argument I've seen (or made) against you as regards perspective has acknowledged forced perspective. In fact, forced perspective is frequently brought up as an example of just how important proper perspective and sense of scale is in Disney's former design philosophy, something being abandoned in TSL. You are not speaking in good faith here.

And no, a bare coaster isn't good enough for the headliner of an expensive land that is half of an update fans have been waiting more than a decade for to fix a neglected, half-finished park. And mismatched, static statues and architecturally unadorned shacks with some painting on them are not Disney-level theming.

Saying that Adventureland or Frontierland are not E-Ticket lands is absurd. They most certainly are. The only comparisons for TSL are the various iterations of Mickey's Birthdayland, a Bug's Land (which is markedly better than TSL) - and the other TSLs around the world. Until Disney announced TSL for WDW, this board was pretty unanimous in their overwhelming disdain for those other TSLs. Funny how that changed.

 

[180º]

I’m of the opinion that Toy Story Land looks pretty thoroughly themed (so far as I can tell). The problem is the subject matter is so ugly and messy that it’ll be miserable anyway.

 

[sunsetblvd26]

All the things you pointed out is getting a good go-of in TSL. Everywhere you look you'll see giant toys and games. Giant yard and fence. Giant coaster built by a young boy. This fits your criteria of properly themed.

The ones I've been arguing against add specific criteria: They say everything has to be perfectly scaled. Is that what Morocco does? Or does it use sliding scales for forced perspective?

They say you shouldn't be able to see out of the land (the top of Slinky issue). And yet, when you're in Morocco, aren't there places you can see out of it and into Future World?

They say that a 'bare' coaster is just so cheap that it just completely ruins everything. I don't have a Morocco parallel to this, but, the coaster is themed to a child's playset coaster. But that's not good enough.

TSL is not properly themed in their opinion because of these things.

It is properly themed in my opinion. Certainly not at the level of Potterlands or Pandora or SWL, but perfectly acceptable. But what I just said here is their jumping off point for saying that it's not good enough unless it hits the highest level in all criteria and anything less is pure carp and unacceptable. So, yes, they are making the point that it fails compared to perfection... which everything does because nothing is perfect.

It seems to me the problem is that many members here are having a trouble distinguishing between them personally disliking a theme, and the theme actually being bad.

 

[Andrew C]

Wait, wait...we are rating lands as A, B, C, D and E tickets now?

 

[Casper Gutman]

Incorrect on both accounts, forced perspective is certainly being used and Slinky is not the headliner of the land.

Well I don't know that I agree with that, but personally what I find funny is how people who hate TSL have changed their standards on what is a good attraction. There truly is no winning, I'm not sure why I'm even bothering with this reply.

Ah, yes, the decade-old video-game ride is the headliner of this "new" land.

And when, precisely, were bare, outdoor coasters hailed as "good attractions" around here? Where were the celebrations of Goofy's Barnstormer or Gadget's Go-Coaster or even California Screamin'? I don't think it's the folks grumbling about TSL that have changed their standards...

 

[smile]

And when, precisely, were bare, outdoor coasters hailed as "good attractions"

or anywhere other than amusement parks, for that matter...
bare coasters were unheard of until good enough came into play years ago
- the toy story ip was contorted to be convenient for such an approach, to its detriment

not that the tsl lands are devoid of merit, but they're certainly value additions with questionable longevity...
we aren't seeing a proliferation of carslands or even equivalent toy story lands even though it had been explicitly stated that dhs tsl would be.

 

[smile]

Wait, wait...we are rating lands as A, B, C, D and E tickets now?

Are you shocked? 90 percent of the people on this forum are the crazies stuck in the 1980s when WDW was allegedly so flawless and perfect. Lol

compare the thematic integrity of either swl or pandora or carsland to tsl...

yes/no?

 

[Andrew C]

compare the thematic integrity of either swl or pandora or carsland to tsl...

yes/no?

Why are you quoting me with that response? A-E ticket ratings are how attractions are rated. Applying that to whole lands would be something new to me.

 

[smile]

Why are you quoting me with that response? A-E ticket ratings are how attractions are rated. Applying that to whole lands would be something new to me.

i'm proposing to you a question asking if comparing those lands to tsl in effort/budget looks similarly like the effort/budget differences in the scale for attractions.
if so, would that not be the equivalent of assigning letters to lands?

current history, spurred by potter, suggests a move towards entire lands in favor of singular attractions, in which case such designations may become more appropriate as a distinction of effort/budget is more readily seen.

or maybe i just misunderstood you

 

[lazyboy97o]

You miss the history with them. They're really mad that Slinky-Dog isn't an enclosed E-Ticket thrill ride that's the new, best-ever ride in the world. And so, they'll come up with their own ridiculously high standards for what a new land should be and constantly rail the TSL doesn't meet it. We've been through these discussions of seeing outside the land atop Slinky Dog, and that Slinky Dog is 'bare' and not enclosed, and how a there isn't a strict scale to all toys and objects compared to people. They've said it many times before. Their standards are their standards but they proclaim them as if they were chiseled on stone tablets by the Creator Himself. If it's not E-Level all the way its carp to them. And they carp all over it again and again.

I was expecting this since they can't help themselves...

All the things you pointed out is getting a good go-of in TSL. Everywhere you look you'll see giant toys and games. Giant yard and fence. Giant coaster built by a young boy. This fits your criteria of properly themed.

The ones I've been arguing against add specific criteria: They say everything has to be perfectly scaled. Is that what Morocco does? Or does it use sliding scales for forced perspective?

They say you shouldn't be able to see out of the land (the top of Slinky issue). And yet, when you're in Morocco, aren't there places you can see out of it and into Future World?

They say that a 'bare' coaster is just so cheap that it just completely ruins everything. I don't have a Morocco parallel to this, but, the coaster is themed to a child's playset coaster. But that's not good enough.

TSL is not properly themed in their opinion because of these things.

It is properly themed in my opinion. Certainly not at the level of Potterlands or Pandora or SWL, but perfectly acceptable. But what I just said here is their jumping off point for saying that it's not good enough unless it hits the highest level in all criteria and anything less is pure carp and unacceptable. So, yes, they are making the point that it fails compared to perfection... which everything does because nothing is perfect.

You should get a barn for all of that straw.

 

[Andrew C]

i'm proposing to you a question asking if comparing those lands to tsl in effort/budget looks similarly like the effort/budget differences in the scale for attractions.
if so, would that not be the equivalent of assigning letters to lands?

current history, spurred by potter, suggests a move towards entire lands in favor of singular attractions, in which case such designations may become more appropriate as a distinction of effort/budget is more readily seen.

or maybe i just misunderstood you

I’d argue it is more difficult and requires more effort to theme a land after Toy story than after Cars or Potter. Cars with the town of radiator springs and Potter with Hogwarts and Diagon alley were already conceptualized in the movies and offer such great starting points for themed lands. Toy story just doesn’t have that in my opinion. And I think we see that with what has been offered for toy story land.

Now the attractions that were selected...well that’s a different story.

 

[the.dreamfinder]

I’d argue it is more difficult and requires more effort to theme a land after Toy story than after Cars or Potter. Cars with the town of radiator springs and Potter with Hogwarts and Diagon alley were already conceptualized in the movies and offer such great starting points for themed lands. Toy story just doesn’t have that in my opinion. And I think we see that with what has been offered for toy story land.

Now the attractions that were selected...well that’s a different story.

So, if we were to apply this elsewhere, what you’re saying is it’s harder to do theme a All Star resort than a Wilderness Lodge.

 

[twebber55]

I’d argue it is more difficult and requires more effort to theme a land after Toy story than after Cars or Potter. Cars with the town of radiator springs and Potter with Hogwarts and Diagon alley were already conceptualized in the movies and offer such great starting points for themed lands. Toy story just doesn’t have that in my opinion. And I think we see that with what has been offered for toy story land.

Now the attractions that were selected...well that’s a different story.

totally agree
some IPs are easier to adapt to theme park environments
especially IPs with single place environments ie Pandora, Diagon Alley, Radiator Springs etc....

 

[Goofyernmost]

It's not really that this land won't be correctly themed it is that so many do not understand or even try to understand what the theme is. Then if they do understand put impossible demands on how that should be seen. It's as if they truly expect the Pixie Dust to be able to alter reality and they not have to use any imagination to get to that degree of immersion. So, to boil it down, they don't like the theme and reject it out of hand. You can tell it's out of hand because all that speculation has been based on concept drawings from the beginning and do not have the patience to actually wait and see before deciding that it is awful. What'cha goin to do. Don't worry about it... wait until it is opened. Experience it and then if you don't like what they did, don't go again. One can always enter SWL from the other direction.

 

[smile]

I’d argue it is more difficult and requires more effort to theme a land after Toy story than after Cars or Potter.

that line of thinking leads one to wonder why the more 'difficult' ip was chosen to plaster all over the globe...
would you not choose to add the more fully fleshed environments that you feel lend themselves to greater thematic actualization?

toy story is more than giant tinker toys or it would have been a one and done twenty years ago -
yet that is all that is budgeted to be expressed thematically...
all toy, no story

 

[lazyboy97o]

 

[Casper Gutman]

It's not really that this land won't be correctly themed it is that so many do not understand or even try to understand what the theme is. Then if they do understand put impossible demands on how that should be seen. It's as if they truly expect the Pixie Dust to be able to alter reality and they not have to use any imagination to get to that degree of immersion. So, to boil it down, they don't like the theme and reject it out of hand. You can tell it's out of hand because all that speculation has been based on concept drawings from the beginning and do not have the patience to actually wait and see before deciding that it is awful. What'cha goin to do. Don't worry about it... wait until it is opened. Experience it and then if you don't like what they did, don't go again. One can always enter SWL from the other direction.

In this particular case, the speculation isn't based on drawings but on versions of the land completed and opened in other parks before the WDW iteration was ever announced, So not that speculative.

And if a particular theme makes expectations of coherence, scale, immersiveness, and architectural interest "impossible," then its probably not a good theme on which to base a land. And I would agree - the Toy Story theme is pretty much doomed to failure from the start, for a variety of reasons inherent to the concept. But Disney isn't replicating TSL around the world because it makes a top-flight land, they're doing it because its cheap (for Disney), fast (for Disney), and tied to an IP that moves merchandise. All that immersiveness and artistry stuff - for Disney, that's not the point. Which is the problem.

 

[Goofyernmost]

In this particular case, the speculation isn't based on drawings but on versions of the land completed and opened in other parks before the WDW iteration was ever announced, So not that speculative.

And if a particular theme makes expectations of coherence, scale, immersiveness, and architectural interest "impossible," then its probably not a good theme on which to base a land. And I would agree - the Toy Story theme is pretty much doomed to failure from the start, for a variety of reasons inherent to the concept. But Disney isn't replicating TSL around the world because it makes a top-flight land, they're doing it because its cheap (for Disney), fast (for Disney), and tied to an IP that moves merchandise. All that immersiveness and artistry stuff - for Disney, that's not the point. Which is the problem.

It's only a problem for a very few. If the rides are fun it will be a success no matter how out of the "bible" some of you might think that it is. I am aware that Disney isn't just for kids, but, it isn't just for adults either. If you or anyone else doesn't like the land... keep right on going over to the highly mature adult area that will be known as SWL. There will be plenty of jollies to go around there. All of Walt's parks (well, the one that he built) required a lot more "suspension of disbelief" then pure uninterrupted theme. Disneyland had nothing but interrupted theme and last I heard that was a huge success.

 

[Movielover]

that line of thinking leads one to wonder why the more 'difficult' ip was chosen to plaster all over the globe...

Toy Story is Pixar's most widely known and objectively best IP (Although my favorite is Up, Closely followed by TS3). That's probably why it is the most represented out of all of their IP with some type of Toy Story attraction in every resort world wide.

 

[Phicinfan]

Ah, yes, the decade-old video-game ride is the headliner of this "new" land.

And when, precisely, were bare, outdoor coasters hailed as "good attractions" around here? Where were the celebrations of Goofy's Barnstormer or Gadget's Go-Coaster or even California Screamin'? I don't think it's the folks grumbling about TSL that have changed their standards...

Not that I totally disagree....but

This coaster is a "toy" by Andy. How in the world is Andy supposed to build a indoor E Ticket ride in his back yard? Sometimes the "cheaper" option fits the direction better.