Toy Story and Soarin Rumors

[xstech25]

You keep giving me the same spiel about how adding rides is going to be better for the park but the fact is they can still add new rides and also build a new track on Toy Story Mania. The other fact is that TSM will still have long lines even with new rides there because its one of the most popular rides at WDW.

 

[cw1982]

You keep giving me the same spiel about how adding rides is going to be better for the park but the fact is they can still add new rides and also build a new track on Toy Story Mania. The other fact is that TSM will still have long lines even with new rides there because its one of the most popular rides at WDW.

Part of the reason for its popularity is the lack of height restriction. If more rides with the same level of restriction and the same "coolness factor" (and no, that's not a Frozen pun) were added, the demand would be more evenly spread.

You completely disregarded my second reply, where I pointed out that TDO isn't likely to do both simultaneously. They need to invest in more attractions first. If there is still a need to expand capacity on TSMM afterwards, then fine. But right now adding onto TSMM instead of building more attractions would make them come off like they're taking the cheap way out.

 

[danlb_2000]

You keep giving me the same spiel about how adding rides is going to be better for the park but the fact is they can still add new rides and also build a new track on Toy Story Mania. The other fact is that TSM will still have long lines even with new rides there because its one of the most popular rides at WDW.

IF they were doing both, I would be ok with it, but at the moment we don't know when or if new rides are coming.

 

[CDavid]

Seeing people complain about adding capacity to rides that always have ridiculously long lines really shows the mentality of some people. Somebody said "The reason Soarin' never has a long wait at DCA is because there is more stuff to do." Soarin' gets long lines at DCA all the time, go on a weekend and its common for the line to be 60-90.

The fact that you think the park needs more rides has nothing to do with this: these are extremely popular and marketable rides that people see on the Discovery/Travel Channel and people are going to want to ride when they go to WDW. The only problem I have with these projects is that they took so long (10 years of angry customers before actually doing something to fix it).

The proper solution to inadequate ride capacity is to add more new attractions, and not by building more of the same. Until Dumbo was relocated, never before were such problems 'solved' by duplicating what is already there - it is a waste of resources and money which could be spent to bring something new to parks which grow increasingly stale by the day.

Adding capacity doesn't necessarily reduce overcrowding or wait times, potentially it would just allow more people to experience the attraction. As the queue for Midway Mania grows longer and thus wait times increase, fewer and fewer guests are willing to stand in line for that long and therefore do not enter the queue (with the inverse also true). If guests are willing to wait 90 minutes (made up example) to experience TSMM that won't change; Higher capacity will reduce that wait time, and thus prompting more persons to enter the queue and, in theory, maintaining a similar total wait as before (just with many more people riding each day). In this specific case, however, I would expect queue times to be reduced somewhat, but not nearly to the extent the additional ride capacity would indicate. More guests than before will be experiencing Midway Mania each day, and more will be trying for a second (or third) ride on the same day, specifically because there isn't enough to do in the park.

However, new and different additional attractions will help spread out the crowds more effectively. It must be remembered that no single attraction is designed with the capacity for absolutely everyone in the park on any one day to be able to experience it. The Studios needs people interested in other things besides TSMM. Yes, many guests will want to ride both TSMM and the new attraction, which is why you need a park full of rich experiences rather than just one new addition now and then. However, even a single new ride would help reduce crowds and wait times at Midway Mania.

 

[PhotoDave219]

IF they were doing both, I would be ok with it, but at the moment we don't know when or if new rides are coming.

I'm sold on the TSMM rumor. Too many backstage reports of stuff happening.

 

[cw1982]

I'm sold on the TSMM rumor. Too many backstage reports of stuff happening.

I wish I could say I'm surprised. Here's hoping they prove some of us (myself included) wrong and demonstrate their ability to multi task.

 

[danlb_2000]

I'm sold on the TSMM rumor. Too many backstage reports of stuff happening.

I will keep any eye open for permits.

 

[Mike S]

I'm sold on the TSMM rumor. Too many backstage reports of stuff happening.

Well that sucks. Wish we could have the Monsters coaster instead. How long do we have to wait for Star Wars again? About 2019 or longer? Frickin' wonderful Until then, enjoy a stale park with only 6 rides while they continue to raise prices

 

[PhotoDave219]

I will keep any eye open for permits.

Well maybe I'm being hasty here..... Forgot about permits.

Forgot about Dre too.

 

[Californian Elitist]

Soarin' gets long lines at DCA all the time, go on a weekend and its common for the line to be 60-90.

All the time? I definitely wouldn't say that, and I can't even remember the last time I saw the attraction at a 90 minute wait time. Same goes for a 60 minute wait.

 

[GoofGoof]

The proper solution to inadequate ride capacity is to add more new attractions, and not by building more of the same. Until Dumbo was relocated, never before were such problems 'solved' by duplicating what is already there - it is a waste of resources and money which could be spent to bring something new to parks which grow increasingly stale by the day.

Adding capacity doesn't necessarily reduce overcrowding or wait times, potentially it would just allow more people to experience the attraction. As the queue for Midway Mania grows longer and thus wait times increase, fewer and fewer guests are willing to stand in line for that long and therefore do not enter the queue (with the inverse also true). If guests are willing to wait 90 minutes (made up example) to experience TSMM that won't change; Higher capacity will reduce that wait time, and thus prompting more persons to enter the queue and, in theory, maintaining a similar total wait as before (just with many more people riding each day). In this specific case, however, I would expect queue times to be reduced somewhat, but not nearly to the extent the additional ride capacity would indicate. More guests than before will be experiencing Midway Mania each day, and more will be trying for a second (or third) ride on the same day, specifically because there isn't enough to do in the park.

However, new and different additional attractions will help spread out the crowds more effectively. It must be remembered that no single attraction is designed with the capacity for absolutely everyone in the park on any one day to be able to experience it. The Studios needs people interested in other things besides TSMM. Yes, many guests will want to ride both TSMM and the new attraction, which is why you need a park full of rich experiences rather than just one new addition now and then. However, even a single new ride would help reduce crowds and wait times at Midway Mania.

The problem with TSMM and Soarin is that their total daily capacity is much lower than the number of people in the park. If everyone wanted to ride one time the park would probably have to be open 24hrs to accommodate. Many people who don't get FP+ reservations for the ride end up not riding since they won't wait in the long standby line. If they added a new ride instead of expanding the capacity of TSMM it would help give people who were shut out of TSMM something else to do. Expanding the ride itself would potentially help give everyone who wants it a chance to ride. It should significantly reduce the standby line and also potentially open up additional slots for FP+ which could help eliminate the need for tiers.

I'm not sure the demand for TSMM or Soarin would decrease if they built a new ride instead of expanding the existing one. People are going to want to ride both. If they are really planning on a DCA style makeover of DHS including Star Wars and maybe some expanded Pixar rides the total park attendance will go up making the TSMM issue even worse. Sure, some people will just skip it to visit SW Land but the majority of people are still going to want to do both

Bringing this quote over to this thread where it may be relevant:

I said it earlier in the thread and I'll say it again now - I would not be surprised if the reason why a 3rd theater and 3rd track have potentially been approved is because they were rolled into the Green Light Factory that is the Next Gen budget.

Back when the Fastpass+ project was in it's infancy (known as XPass), a third theater for Soarin' was suggested. This was back in March of 2012, first mentioned by Jim Hill.

I think you are probably dead on with this. These are 2 of the very few rides where you generally can't book FP+ the day you visit. Expanding capacity helps to prevent angry guests who get shut out of a ride they really want to do. It could also help to eliminate tiers in the future. I do remember Jim Hill mentioning this.

 

[CDavid]

The problem with TSMM and Soarin is that their total daily capacity is much lower than the number of people in the park. If everyone wanted to ride one time the park would probably have to be open 24hrs to accommodate. Many people who don't get FP+ reservations for the ride end up not riding since they won't wait in the long standby line. If they added a new ride instead of expanding the capacity of TSMM it would help give people who were shut out of TSMM something else to do. Expanding the ride itself would potentially help give everyone who wants it a chance to ride. It should significantly reduce the standby line and also potentially open up additional slots for FP+ which could help eliminate the need for tiers.

I'm not sure the demand for TSMM or Soarin would decrease if they built a new ride instead of expanding the existing one. People are going to want to ride both. If they are really planning on a DCA style makeover of DHS including Star Wars and maybe some expanded Pixar rides the total park attendance will go up making the TSMM issue even worse. Sure, some people will just skip it to visit SW Land but the majority of people are still going to want to do both

Well, pretty much no attraction in any Disney theme park has a total daily capacity which isn't lower than the total number of people in the park. Only high capacity attractions in parks (or days) with lower attendance can possibly accommodate everyone, but then not everyone wants to ride every attraction. Hence, the importance of having a variety of options to experience in order to distribute crowds. More new rides might reduce crowding at Midway Mania more effectively than will just increasing TSMM ride capacity; Many guests will not wait in a long queue for both, and instead choose one attraction over the other.

While I expect wait times at Midway Mania would decline somewhat with added capacity, for the reasons outlined in my previous post, I would not expect typical wait times to drop dramatically, depending on demand (how many guests currently skip the ride due to long lines). TSMM will remain very popular regardless of what is done, the question is now many more people will try to ride an expanded capacity version. If the numbers are large enough, potentially wait times would not decrease.

 

[wdrive]

Does anyone know how long we are talking for this extra TSMM? Surely it can't take that long to put in a track, a few ride vehicles and some screens (yeah I know it's TDO and anything they do takes forever). Would the original TSMM be closed during the construction?

 

[danlb_2000]

Does anyone know how long we are talking for this extra TSMM? Surely it can't take that long to put in a track, a few ride vehicles and some screens (yeah I know it's TDO and anything they do takes forever). Would the original TSMM be closed during the construction?

TSMM is a relatively simple ride, so I would think once all the components are on site the installation could happen pretty quickly if they wanted it to, probably less the 6 months. Most of the work could be done without shutting the existing ride down, although there would have to be some down time to finish things up.

 

[GoofGoof]

Well, pretty much no attraction in any Disney theme park has a total daily capacity which isn't lower than the total number of people in the park. Only high capacity attractions in parks (or days) with lower attendance can possibly accommodate everyone, but then not everyone wants to ride every attraction. Hence, the importance of having a variety of options to experience in order to distribute crowds. More new rides might reduce crowding at Midway Mania more effectively than will just increasing TSMM ride capacity; Many guests will not wait in a long queue for both, and instead choose one attraction over the other.

While I expect wait times at Midway Mania would decline somewhat with added capacity, for the reasons outlined in my previous post, I would not expect typical wait times to drop dramatically, depending on demand (how many guests currently skip the ride due to long lines). TSMM will remain very popular regardless of what is done, the question is now many more people will try to ride an expanded capacity version. If the numbers are large enough, potentially wait times would not decrease.

True. Most rides cannot accommodate everyone, but there are 3 rides at WDW (TSMM, TT and Soarin) which seem to have significant lack of capacity. They happen to be 3 headliner type attractions that most guests want to ride. Before double dumbo that ride had a significant capacity problem, but there were a lot more guests willing to skip it. Plus a lot of people spend more than 1 day at MK on a trip so they may not want to ride dumbo or a ride like Peter Pan with low capacity on each day in MK.

Another question is how many people will ride more than once if the ride capacity is expanded? As it currently stands I am doubtful that too many people wait 60+ minutes twice to ride the ride more than once in a day. Due to its scoring system and the competition factor it's a ride that could easily be ridden more than once in a day. The standby line may not go down much during peak times, but if it gets low first thing in the morning, later at night or on slow days I could see people riding more than once. I've done it a bunch of times on Buzz trying to beat my high score or more importantly my wife's

 

[GoofGoof]

TSMM is a relatively simple ride, so I would think once all the components are on site the installation could happen pretty quickly if they wanted it to, probably less the 6 months. Most of the work could be done without shutting the existing ride down, although there would have to be some down time to finish things up.

They could probably have it open for the spring break rush next year. Is part of the Frozen summer addition in the same building or is that in a different location? They look to be extending Frozen through the winter so that could slow down progress on this project if they share some space.

 

[RSoxNo1]

What @Mike S said.

Besides, if there were more attractions to help spread the crowd, the line wouldn't get so long as often. Sure there would be days when it still happens, but the problem is that there are only two rides at Epcot that typically build that kind of a wait time while everything else is easily less than a 30 minute wait.

Adding capacity to a ride might help some, but it's like putting a band aid over a cut that needs stitches. The real solution has to involve more, or the park will still have capacity issues. At Epcot, Soarin absolutely needs a third theater, but Epcot also needs more rides (and no, I'm not talking about the Maelstrom overlay, because no matter what one's position is on that ride, the overlay doesn't add another ride).

HS absolutely has a dire need for more attractions. Mike hit the nail on the head when he said that adding capacity to TSMM is a bad idea if it sacrifices a potential area for another attraction.

A third (and potentially 4th) track and a third (and potentially 4th) theater are bandaids. But Bandaids do serve a purpose. We know that Star Wars expansion is happening, the problem is the time frame (5 years). At Epcot, we anticipate a Frozen attraction is coming, as are potentially other additions. I would expect Frozen and Soarin' Over the world to be online at around the same time.

Increasing capacity at high demand attractions is a good thing, we just want to see it done in conjunction with new experiences. At Epcot there are new experiences coming with the capacity changes. At Hollywood Studios, those new experiences are likely coming after.

So, assuming that capacity increases are happening, we have to look at the motivation. We can look at guest satisfaction as a reason, and that's all well and good, but it's not guest satisfaction by itself. It's guest satisfaction as it relates to Fastpass+ and Next Gen. Look at the most frequent complaints about Next Gen:

• We don't like planning in advance
• We don't like how Fastpass+ reservations aren't available day of
• The tiers are confusing
  
• We like being able to switch to popular attractions if our plans change

Adding capacity to the two most popular attractions in the parks helps with all of these. Sure there will still be problems like Test Track, Seven Dwarfs Mine Train, and Frozen in Norway, but expanding Soarin' and Toy Story will likely be enough to eliminate tiers and give more flexibility. It's digging deeper into the Next Gen problem (which was flawed from the beginning), but it's a way in Disney's mind to "make it work". The other way of course, is to also add new attractions.

 

[RSoxNo1]

I'm not sure the demand for TSMM or Soarin would decrease if they built a new ride instead of expanding the existing one. People are going to want to ride both. If they are really planning on a DCA style makeover of DHS including Star Wars and maybe some expanded Pixar rides the total park attendance will go up making the TSMM issue even worse. Sure, some people will just skip it to visit SW Land but the majority of people are still going to want to do both

I think you are probably dead on with this. These are 2 of the very few rides where you generally can't book FP+ the day you visit. Expanding capacity helps to prevent angry guests who get shut out of a ride they really want to do. It could also help to eliminate tiers in the future. I do remember Jim Hill mentioning this.

This is another interesting point. We all know there is a breaking point for every person for how long they would wait in a line. We're seeing this tested and exploited with the "Not-Fastpass" slips of paper being handed out at Princess Fairytale Hall and Be our Guest. It's conceivable that additional capacity at Toy Story and Soarin' will have a minimal effect on wait times. Having said that though, more people will be able to access it with a shorter wait because there will be additional Fastpass+ capacity. The standby wait may not change, but you still see more guests experiencing the ride. That's still a positive.

 

[GoofGoof]

A third (and potentially 4th) track and a third (and potentially 4th) theater are bandaids. But Bandaids do serve a purpose. We know that Star Wars expansion is happening, the problem is the time frame (5 years). At Epcot, we anticipate a Frozen attraction is coming, as are potentially other additions. I would expect Frozen and Soarin' Over the world to be online at around the same time.

Increasing capacity at high demand attractions is a good thing, we just want to see it done in conjunction with new experiences. At Epcot there are new experiences coming with the capacity changes. At Hollywood Studios, those new experiences are likely coming after.

So, assuming that capacity increases are happening, we have to look at the motivation. We can look at guest satisfaction as a reason, and that's all well and good, but it's not guest satisfaction by itself. It's guest satisfaction as it relates to Fastpass+ and Next Gen. Look at the most frequent complaints about Next Gen:

• We don't like planning in advance
• We don't like how Fastpass+ reservations aren't available day of
• The tiers are confusing
  
• We like being able to switch to popular attractions if our plans change

Adding capacity to the two most popular attractions in the parks helps with all of these. Sure there will still be problems like Test Track, Seven Dwarfs Mine Train, and Frozen in Norway, but expanding Soarin' and Toy Story will likely be enough to eliminate tiers and give more flexibility. It's digging deeper into the Next Gen problem (which was flawed from the beginning), but it's a way in Disney's mind to "make it work". The other way of course, is to also add new attractions.

Agreed. I think you nailed it exactly. I'm optimistic that these changes are in anticipation of further expansion and new rides as opposed to "instead of" new rides. Either way they need to expand capacity on these rides to make FP+ work the way they want it to so it's going to happen.

 

[RSoxNo1]

Agreed. I think you nailed it exactly. I'm optimistic that these changes are in anticipation of further expansion and new rides as opposed to "instead of" new rides. Either way they need to expand capacity on these rides to make FP+ work the way they want it to so it's going to happen.

I've also said it a few different times - I would not be surprised at all if the capacity increases are being rolled into the Next Gen budget. If that's the case, it was likely easier to green light than say a capacity increase at Dumbo.