Tipping Mousekeeping

[BuddyThomas]

Traditional that more than half dont acknowledge... and a position that noone can justify with justifications that align with other tipped positions. Its 'traditional' only because some people insist it is... yet its not followed in practice.

It boils down to 'because i say so!' even tho it cant be articulated in any defendable way. Thats why many people don't subscribe to the 'suggestion'

Uh huh. Keep telling yourself that. I'm not going to post all sorts of links that contradict what you just said, but I could. Anyone with access to the Internet can do it themselves. Also, have you never been in a hotel where they leave an envelope?

 

[xdan0920]

Uh huh. Keep telling yourself that. I'm not going to post all sorts of links that contradict what you just said, but I could. Anyone with access to the Internet can do it themselves. Also, have you never been in a hotel where they leave an envelope?

He knows you are supposed to tip housekeeping. He doesn't do it, and is therefore trying to justify that act.

There is an argument to be had that tip culture is bad. And that housekeepers don't deserve tips anymore then grocery clerks. However, this is the world we live in. Housekeepers are tipped positions. Most people are aware of this and do leave tips.

Flynn and others are trying to change the game. They don't like tipping housekeeping, and are coming up with increasingly tenuous arguments on why they don't do it.

It's almost like there are two separate arguments happening...

1. Is tipping housekeeping common practice/proper etiquette/a social norm? The answer to this is objectively, Yes, you should tip.

2. Should tipping housekeeping be common practice/proper etiquette/a social norm? The answer to this is more subjective.

 

[21stamps]

Uh huh. Keep telling yourself that. I'm not going to post all sorts of links that contradict what you just said, but I could. Anyone with access to the Internet can do it themselves. Also, have you never been in a hotel where they leave an envelope?

It really just boils down to- people know that it's commonly practiced, but they just don't want to do it.
Fine.

But stop the arguments that it is not commonly practiced...Or comparisons to cashiers etc. It's all become a bit ridiculous.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

Here are some more "tips" from our country's delightful restaurant customers:

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Annnnd after all of that, one good one:
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Fake.

(I'm on your side on tipping in general, but almost every waitress-posts-receipt-on-Facebook story is completely made up.)

 

[flynnibus]

Uh huh. Keep telling yourself that. I'm not going to post all sorts of links that contradict what you just said, but I could. Anyone with access to the Internet can do it themselves. Also, have you never been in a hotel where they leave an envelope?

I did post data to support my claims... which aren't just opinion but actual measurements of participation.

And no, outside of cruise lines I can't say I've ever seen tip envelopes in rooms. I've only heard of marriott doing it here after reading this thread and I can't say I've seen them in the rooms. But I don't seek out Marriott properties either.

 

[PurpleDragon]

This is misconception at it's best. There are standards... it's established between employers and employees in terms of HOW THEY ARE PAID. The idea that people can get below min wage when tips are included IS BECAUSE OF THAT CONVENTION. It's a concession in the law based on PRE-EXISTING employment conventions. Not the other way around. The law gives employers credit for compensation that wasn't intended to come from the employer. People hire into the jobs WITH THE EXPECTATION of tips being part of their 'regular and customary' compensation. Employers have established that expectation with their customers.

The problem with that is its not guaranteed income and most wait staff have to take on a second job just to make ends meet, its becoming more and more common for people not to tip, especially since most European countries do not allow tipping of wait staff since they're paid full hourly wages. Add to that the fact that the restaurant market in the US is also on the decline, since fewer people can afford to eat out. The concept of the "federal tipped minimum wage"($2.13) is just laughable, on an average day at any of the chain restaurants an individual waiter may make a total of $10 in tips from a full 8 hour shift, that's still about $30 short of what they need to equal the same money earned at the "federal minimum wage" ($7.25), and that's IF they aren't required to split their tips with the rest of the staff. The employer is not required to cover the missing $30, so now the employee is short for the week already after only one day. These people have to put a roof over their family's head and food on their own table, wait staff should be paid at minimum the same as other minimum wage jobs, and the tipping should be considered a gift for good service.

 

[flynnibus]

He knows you are supposed to tip housekeeping. He doesn't do it, and is therefore trying to justify that act.

There is an argument to be had that tip culture is bad. And that housekeepers don't deserve tips anymore then grocery clerks. However, this is the world we live in. Housekeepers are tipped positions. Most people are aware of this and do leave tips.

Flynn and others are trying to change the game. They don't like tipping housekeeping, and are coming up with increasingly tenuous arguments on why they don't do it.

No. I'm of the position this isn't common culture, and just because some etiquette guides say there are suggested values that doesn't make it the dominate practice. I've cited sources showing it's not the dominate practice in the general public. Every single source shows a HUGE difference between tipping wait staff and tipping housekeeping. These are not outlining thoughts. This is legit differences in behavior.

As to why the difference, I've tried to articulate how the positions differ and show how the ideas people use to justify tipping are irrationally applied. The justifications are not based in logic but purely because you were told at some point in time position x deserves it while position Y does not.

And yet no one can cite examples where employees are lured with the expectations of normal tips in these positions... contrasted with the positions of wait staff that know fully that tips are the dominate portion of their wages. Has anyone ever seen a TIP line on their hotel receipt? Or been given a way to pay a housekeeping tip when checking out???? (Excluding cruises)

It's the difference between is it common for people to leave a gratuity out of courtesy.... verse it's EXPECTED the guest is to leave payment for the staff.

That's the contention. Tipping waiters is not courtesy... it's an expectation of the customer. Tipping staff like housekeeping is a courtesy only.

That's the question... not if people want to change "the norm". Which ironically is what tip seekers try to do more than anyone (the trend of tip cups everywhere in the last 20yrs)

 

[disney4life2008]

The problem with that is its not guaranteed income and most wait staff have to take on a second job just to make ends meet, its becoming more and more common for people not to tip, especially since most European countries do not allow tipping of wait staff since they're paid full hourly wages. Add to that the fact that the restaurant market in the US is also on the decline, since fewer people can afford to eat out. The concept of the "federal tipped minimum wage"($2.13) is just laughable, on an average day at any of the chain restaurants an individual waiter may make a total of $10 in tips from a full 8 hour shift, that's still about $30 short of what they need to equal the same money earned at the "federal minimum wage" ($7.25), and that's IF they aren't required to split their tips with the rest of the staff. The employer is not required to cover the missing $30, so now the employee is short for the week already after only one day. These people have to put a roof over their family's head and food on their own table, wait staff should be paid at minimum the same as other minimum wage jobs, and the tipping should be considered a gift for good service.

Yes. But what about housekeeping? They are paid $12 per hour.

 

[Courtney6682]

Brilliant! I knew it! I was actually going to make a joke that your Ph.D must be in gender studies or applied dance theory or microaggressions or some other such nonsense. Thank you for confirming.

I was wondering what type of Dr. says ...''boy, bye'' and can't get you're and your right in a sentence?

 

[disney4life2008]

I was wondering what type of Dr. says ...''boy, bye'' and can't get you're and your right in a sentence?

Me lol. You can call me Kenya Moore meets Barack Obama

 

[Laketravis]

But stop the arguments that it is not commonly practiced...Or comparisons to cashiers etc. It's all become a bit ridiculous.

Not as ridiculous as comparing it to white/black tie events, which is also a bit pretentious.

 

[KrzyKtty]

Yeah but now adays 'anyone can publish anything' and that leads to all kinds of BS becoming 'common' because 95% of people will pass something along without any concern about how it reflects on them or qualification. It's how ideas build steam without anything really behind them except campaigning.

Can anyone articulate how the tipping standard has moved from 15%, to 18%, to 20+% and keeps accelerating? Its more of this 'well I heard...' stuff combined with the strategy of 'just don't be the worst... and hide in their shadow' philosophy taking over pricing.

In my experience the standard tipping has moved from 15% to 20% because people, like myself, tend to leave a standard 20% tip wherever we go except if service is bad. I was a server so I leave that as a standard. However, it seems like a lot of others are doing it as well. That signals to establishments that the new standard is 20% and excellent should be 25%. It is called, "Creep" and this isn't the only thing that experiences it.

 

[NormC]

The sky is blue.

 

[KrzyKtty]

Gratuity
noun, plural gratuities.
1. a gift of money, over and above payment due for service, as to a waiter orbellhop; tip.
2. something given without claim or demand

Dictionary.com

??? I don't really get the point in responding to this with that definition?? I don't disagree with it, and I was only posting it because another poster asked for a definition....

 

[Otterhead]

I'm of the position this isn't common culture

Your position is factually incorrect and has repeatedly been proven so. Your arguments are poor. Your position is against the common practice that is well known to the vast majority of people who've ever stayed in a hotel.

My position has not changed:
If you stay in a hotel, tip the cleaning staff.
If you refuse to, even though you know you're supposed to, stay home.

 

[KrzyKtty]

Except the numbers are not anywhere near that close... so your out really doesn't answer the question. If you'd like an easier one to digest, what if the 'social norm' for tipping suddenly changed in amount people should tip? Are all the social justice types going to tell the employees to suck it and become better people?? Because they need to accept the social norm?

I guess that type of mob morality works great when it aligns with your thinking... but is horrible at actually being an objective, quantifable standard.

Hey Mr Hardware Store guy... I know you love your family business... but its now the SOCIAL NORM to shop at Home Depot or Lowes... so no one cares that you didn't adapt and went out of business.

These quantifiers are easy to blow through...

I'm sorry but I really don't understand how anything you said above has anything with what I said in my quote? The original posted said what would happen to salaries if tipping servers went away, or something similar to that effect. I was simply saying that the current law dictates that with or without tipping, an employer has to make sure that the employee makes at least minimum wage. So if they do not get enough in tips, the employer has to supplement the check. If our society moved away from tipped positions entirely, I am sure the law would make sure they make at least minimum wage..... like it already does.

A local restaurant was fined half a million dollars in back wages for this very thing just in the last year.

 

[flynnibus]

??? I don't really get the point in responding to this with that definition?? I don't disagree with it, and I was only posting it because another poster asked for a definition....

Point was.. to call a gratuity something that is expected as mandatory.. is a misnomer in itself.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

Point was.. to call a gratuity something that is expected as mandatory.. is a misnomer in itself.

"Expected" and "mandatory" are two different things. Gratuity is expected but it is not mandatory.

 

[elhefe4]

Your position is factually incorrect and has repeatedly been proven so. Your arguments are poor. Your position is against the common practice that is well known to the vast majority of people who've ever stayed in a hotel.

My position has not changed:
If you stay in a hotel, tip the cleaning staff.
If you refuse to, even though you know you're supposed to, stay home.

Just because you say something is factually incorrect doesn't make it so. Just because you and your friends do something doesn't mean you're in the majority or that it's common practice. I worked as a housekeeper during a few summers in college at a hotel in a touristy town and in my experience only about 10-15% of people left a tip. I never expected one nor was that part of the expectation before I was hired, but I did appreciate it when it happened. I'm not claiming that my experience would be the same everywhere, but when almost half the population surveyed says they don't tip housekeeping staff, you can't claim that tipping is a common practice. It's just not.

 

[flynnibus]

I'm sorry but I really don't understand how anything you said above has anything with what I said in my quote?

You said "So I would assume that if those norms changed an/or evolved, the owners would have to continue to do the same"

The example illustrates the fallacy of your logic because it does not apply forwards and backwards.. but only when it suits your belief. It's the scientific method.. you postulate and test. Your postulation fails to lead to your expected outcome in different tests.

The original posted said what would happen to salaries if tipping servers went away, or something similar to that effect. I was simply saying that the current law dictates that with or without tipping, an employer has to make sure that the employee makes at least minimum wage. So if they do not get enough in tips, the employer has to supplement the check. If our society moved away from tipped positions entirely, I am sure the law would make sure they make at least minimum wage..... like it already does.

The minimum wage thing is a red herring in all of this. None of this is about making minimum wage or not. For the vast bulk of people working tables, their target wages are not simply minimum wage... and why they are working as a server and not some other job that simply pays minimum wage outright.

And you didn't seem to understand the example of how the tip credit and making up for it is really moot anyways because of how it is calculated.