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Time Racer Coming
- Thread starter jcrb
- Start date
FourFourSeven
Member
Really? I've done that with my daughter and stroller (granted, we took her out of the stroller). We did the "Dumbo Dash." She loved it! (both the ride and the sprint, which she thought was hilarious.) Okay, it wasn't a sprint (I wouldn't put my daughter in danger), but it was a jog, not a walk. I did see one 40-something woman who was huffing it pretty quickly do a faceplant. Thankfully it was not while holding a kid, and she was okay, just very embarassed as all the strollers went rushing around her...
Now, now. Although Eisner has made a lot of bad decisions recently (most involving ABC, it would seem), one could make the argument that if it weren't for him, Disney would have been broken apart by corporate raiders in the early '80s, and Disneyworld would be owned by Six Flags, the old films would be owned by AOL/Time Warner, and there'd have been no animation renaissance in the '90s.
Raidermatt
Active Member
My only point was that the fact that some people sprint to certain attractions does not necessarily mean they are all more valuable attractions than the ones where folks are not sprinting. Like Pirates, HM, and SE.
Maybe we should just chalk both of these up to hyperbole.
Eisner has talent, its just not suited for Disney.
Roy and Gold saved the company from break-up. Eisner (with Wells, which is key) was the mutually agreed upon guy to run it. And he did a great job of putting under-utilized assests to work. But very little of the creative output was due to him. As he has consolidated power over the years, and chased off much of the creative talent, things have gradually gotten worse, both creatively and now financially.
Coincidence?
Disneynutcase
New Member
Yep, as a person who works in the creative end of the entertainment industry out in So Cal, most people in the "biz" have been politely admitting for several years that Disney lost its creative soul when Eisner started fueding with Katzenberg.
That was how many years ago--8? 10? And what has Disney really shown for it since then? Massive expansion. Four domestic parks (DL, DCA, Epcot, and AK) in need of rehab, new attractions, general upkeep. And barely any theatrical hits that haven't had Pixar somehow involved with the films.
Lately, when a Disney or Touchstone flick makes $$, it almost seems that it happens by dumb luck (unless it's Pixar). But when you look at what Dreamworks has been able to do w/in the last few years, especially in family films, then it becomes obvious where the creative talent came from. And it's not that it all resided in Katzenberg. It's just that when he left Disney, he took a lot of people with him.
And what does Disney have for the upcoming year--a new Pixar flick, Jungle Book 2, and clasic MK/DL rides turned into movies.
The buzz out here is, at least on the motion picture and tv side, that Disney relies too much on lowest-common-denominator (yet still making lame attempts to be wholesome) entertainment.
Hence that's what is happening to the parks, particularly Epcot--where no one seems to want to put a real true-to-the-spirit-of-Walt&Epcot thought-provoking attraction into the mix anymore. That doesn't mean that M:S and Time Racers won't be cutting edge nor uninteresting. But I question their creative spirit. TT, cool as it is, seems to be an elaborate GM advertizement.
This excessant need to pull "safeties" is starting to make Disney product of late, for lack of better definitions, very much bland and soulless.
That was how many years ago--8? 10? And what has Disney really shown for it since then? Massive expansion. Four domestic parks (DL, DCA, Epcot, and AK) in need of rehab, new attractions, general upkeep. And barely any theatrical hits that haven't had Pixar somehow involved with the films.
Lately, when a Disney or Touchstone flick makes $$, it almost seems that it happens by dumb luck (unless it's Pixar). But when you look at what Dreamworks has been able to do w/in the last few years, especially in family films, then it becomes obvious where the creative talent came from. And it's not that it all resided in Katzenberg. It's just that when he left Disney, he took a lot of people with him.
And what does Disney have for the upcoming year--a new Pixar flick, Jungle Book 2, and clasic MK/DL rides turned into movies.
The buzz out here is, at least on the motion picture and tv side, that Disney relies too much on lowest-common-denominator (yet still making lame attempts to be wholesome) entertainment.
Hence that's what is happening to the parks, particularly Epcot--where no one seems to want to put a real true-to-the-spirit-of-Walt&Epcot thought-provoking attraction into the mix anymore. That doesn't mean that M:S and Time Racers won't be cutting edge nor uninteresting. But I question their creative spirit. TT, cool as it is, seems to be an elaborate GM advertizement.
This excessant need to pull "safeties" is starting to make Disney product of late, for lack of better definitions, very much bland and soulless.
FourFourSeven
Member
Agreed. Nonetheless, what's your definition of "valuable?"
-If it's total ridership, SE is clearly near the top of all attractions, HM and Pirates are pretty high (high capacity attractions). However, ridership alone is a skewed stat - those rides with low capacities (Dumbo as an extreme example) would not be considered "valuable."
-If it's "how much I enjoy a ride," I have no comment - tastes obviously vary from person to person, and it's silly and pointless to argue about which rides you or I think are the best. (though I vote for
-If it's "more likely to get more people to visit, and to visit repeatedly," that is a very hard metric to measure. Any ideas on how to do that? I guess you could do all sorts of market research studies (Questions like "If HM was closed and replaced by a new, high thrill attraction, would you be more or less likely to visit?")
I'd venture that, for Disney, it all ultimately boils down to the third definition. Does that mean that all rides should be replaced with thrill rides? No, of course not, in that case, you're catering to one group only, overall attendance would drop. Ultimately, it's a big linear programming, decision analysis problem - what's the overall mix of attractions that will create the highest total attendance? It's clearly not all thrill rides, but it's not all "family" rides, either.
I'd venture to think that Disney is of the opinion that an increase in "newer, faster" attractions, even at the cost of a few older, classic attractions, will increase overall attendance. I'm not saying I agree or disagree, I'm just pointing out a possible Disney conclusion.
True. I was only making a counterpoint (hence my "one could make the argument" statement. But I would argue that Eisner (and Wells, AND Katzenberg) HAD to have an effect. They had tons of creative people before he arrived, but were doing stuff like "The Black Hole" and "The Black Cauldron."
I completely agree that Eisner probably was not the originator of "creative output." However, I would argue that it's not the job of the CEO of an entertainment company's to be the generator of creative output any more than it was the job of Jack Welch to make jet engines, lease planes, or invent a better lightbulb... And if Bill Gates was writing Windows code right now, I'd be selling my Microsoft stock...
Has Eisner overstayed his usefulness? Probably. Has he consolidated too much power at the top? Absolutely. Is there no good succession plan? Indeed. Is the Disney board a complete mess? Yes (though it's improving). But was Eisner at least partially responsible for the dramatic turnaround of the early '80s? How could one possibly say no?
(Sorry for the thread drift - this is a very interesting discussion!)
Disneynutcase
New Member
All this discussion about what makes a popular ride is actually very interesting. I like the comment that someone made about most of the recent additions (including most of DCA's rides) seem like Six Flags attractions with Disney decor.
To put it mildly, SE is and always has been a very creative way to show the history of communication. And in it's time the ride was pretty awe-inspiring.
But there aren't too many virgin Epcot customers left out there of late--not on the adult side anyway. Therefore the majority of people who pass through the gate have been on SE probably more than once. As much as I love the ride, I can admit that it could be defined "old" and "outdated," particularly for an attraction that is within such a notable ride space.
But back to the creative and popular ride issues, I must point out Disney's retardedness of late using the Magic Carpets of Aladdin as a prime example. Up front, I want to say that I think it is a very pretty ride. In fact, I gasped the first time I saw it as I rounded the bend near Swiss Family Treehouse and saw the coloful ride spinning. It does look very neat. And they also did add larger ride vehicles and gave the ride new motions that sets it apart from Dumbo and Astro Orbiter. But with all that said as my compliments, this ride really hacks me off.
Why?
Because the whole flying carpet concept would make a killer dark ride of some kind--as in a ride that could be so much more Disney. Why couldn't they do it like Peter Pan's Flight(which always has a long long line by mid-day at both MK and DL), except instead we have flying carpets as our dark ride vehicles with perhaps more adventure within the ride and much more ride interaction (meaning riders could control the tilt of the carpets or could do a Buzz-like cause-and-effect interaction). How cool and creative would that be? Definately would've been a more "sprint to" ride than what is now in Adventureland.
But alas, instead they blow flying carpets on a pretty standard amusement park ride that can be found darned near everywhere, granted without the Disney decor.
Then again, I guess it's Disney's own fault for setting the bar so high. We know they can do ToT, PotC, SE, BTM, SM, Indiana Jones Adventure, and even add to standard Disney dark rides like they did with Pooh and Buzz at MK. So when we get standard, unimaginative, and so-so attractions, the public at large should naturally be a bit disappointed.
I just hope and pray that Disney begins to pledge itself to taking a few more daring chances on the creative end. This safety and quick fix stuff needs to end. The next few years should tell us a lot. M:S is up first. It needs to rock and inspire awe like ToT did when it opened. As for what's next, I'm eagerly awaiting official word. And I won't be surprised if its a new 3-D, Circlevision, or Disney decorated carnival ride.
To put it mildly, SE is and always has been a very creative way to show the history of communication. And in it's time the ride was pretty awe-inspiring.
But there aren't too many virgin Epcot customers left out there of late--not on the adult side anyway. Therefore the majority of people who pass through the gate have been on SE probably more than once. As much as I love the ride, I can admit that it could be defined "old" and "outdated," particularly for an attraction that is within such a notable ride space.
But back to the creative and popular ride issues, I must point out Disney's retardedness of late using the Magic Carpets of Aladdin as a prime example. Up front, I want to say that I think it is a very pretty ride. In fact, I gasped the first time I saw it as I rounded the bend near Swiss Family Treehouse and saw the coloful ride spinning. It does look very neat. And they also did add larger ride vehicles and gave the ride new motions that sets it apart from Dumbo and Astro Orbiter. But with all that said as my compliments, this ride really hacks me off.
Why?
Because the whole flying carpet concept would make a killer dark ride of some kind--as in a ride that could be so much more Disney. Why couldn't they do it like Peter Pan's Flight(which always has a long long line by mid-day at both MK and DL), except instead we have flying carpets as our dark ride vehicles with perhaps more adventure within the ride and much more ride interaction (meaning riders could control the tilt of the carpets or could do a Buzz-like cause-and-effect interaction). How cool and creative would that be? Definately would've been a more "sprint to" ride than what is now in Adventureland.
But alas, instead they blow flying carpets on a pretty standard amusement park ride that can be found darned near everywhere, granted without the Disney decor.
Then again, I guess it's Disney's own fault for setting the bar so high. We know they can do ToT, PotC, SE, BTM, SM, Indiana Jones Adventure, and even add to standard Disney dark rides like they did with Pooh and Buzz at MK. So when we get standard, unimaginative, and so-so attractions, the public at large should naturally be a bit disappointed.
I just hope and pray that Disney begins to pledge itself to taking a few more daring chances on the creative end. This safety and quick fix stuff needs to end. The next few years should tell us a lot. M:S is up first. It needs to rock and inspire awe like ToT did when it opened. As for what's next, I'm eagerly awaiting official word. And I won't be surprised if its a new 3-D, Circlevision, or Disney decorated carnival ride.
Javier&Christie
New Member
dunno, i think some worry to much about nitpicking the parks and forget about enjoying them... i could nitpick alot of things, but what's the fun in that??? as often as we go.. we always enjoy ourselves.. sure we'll point out a flaw or an idea here or there, but that's as far as it goes.
I'll admit there's a bunch of times we've gone to Epcot and not even bothered to go on SE.. usually we don't even stop there first as I did when I was younger. Hell, I can't even remember the last time SE wasn't a walk-on ride w/ no wait whatsoever.. maybe in the early AM or something when the park first opens, but no other time that I can recall lately. I'll miss if if it's gone, for nostalgic purposes, but I've got plenty of videos of it to do the job.
On another note, I'd hate to see a thrill ride go in. I love thrill rides as much as the next person, but the whole park doesn't need to be made up of it. Before the put in a thrill ride, leave SE alone and just add a thrill ride at MGM or something... we can round that whole park in just a few hours.
I'll admit there's a bunch of times we've gone to Epcot and not even bothered to go on SE.. usually we don't even stop there first as I did when I was younger. Hell, I can't even remember the last time SE wasn't a walk-on ride w/ no wait whatsoever.. maybe in the early AM or something when the park first opens, but no other time that I can recall lately. I'll miss if if it's gone, for nostalgic purposes, but I've got plenty of videos of it to do the job.
On another note, I'd hate to see a thrill ride go in. I love thrill rides as much as the next person, but the whole park doesn't need to be made up of it. Before the put in a thrill ride, leave SE alone and just add a thrill ride at MGM or something... we can round that whole park in just a few hours.
Just A Big Kid
Member
quote:
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Originally posted by Just A Big Kid
3) Install and fully implement disco balls in most of the major attractions just to give them that cheezy effect...
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It's called the Enchanted Tiki Room: Under New Management!!!
LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! very true sadly enough.....:lol:
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Originally posted by Just A Big Kid
3) Install and fully implement disco balls in most of the major attractions just to give them that cheezy effect...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It's called the Enchanted Tiki Room: Under New Management!!!
LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! very true sadly enough.....:lol:
FourFourSeven
Member
While I agree that many Disney attractions lately are essentially dressed-up Six Flags rides, they HAVE also had some winners recently. From all I hear (never been there), Soarin' Over California is an innovative, new ride system.
Also, not every new ride system has to be innovative for a ride to become classic Disney. If Disney goes over the top in reinventing a Six Flags-type ride, it can become a classic. Space Mountain is a simple Wild Mouse roller coaster. Splash Mountain is a flume ride. For a newer example, the raft ride at DCA, again, from what I hear, completely reinvents that sort of ride.
All this discussion makes me think - were there "lame" attractions when WDW opened? Or at Disneyland? I don't know enough Disney history, but I'd venture that even in Walt's glory days, a few "dressed up" theme park rides existed. Ones that still exist - Tea Cups, Carousel, Autopia (though they've been around they're considered classics now).
MKCustodial
Well-Known Member
I think it's more aboutImagination then reusing themes or rides. After all, that's why they're Imagineers and not common engineers, because of their *supposed* ability to create imaginative and wonderful attractions. True, we had lots of good stuff, Soarin', StormRider, Indy Jones Adventure. Even Pooh, Buzz and the New Tiki Room, which I consider controversial for not pleasing everybody, still have their crowd-gathering merits. Test Track is good? Sure, but anyone can visit a car factory. We still have Mission: Space and Phillarmagic to see, and personally, I think M:S is gonna be a tough one, not that much of a general pleaser as well.
Now, we all know whining and complaining ain't gonna do no good, and that's why this discussion is great, because we're pondering facts and suppositions. And that's all we can do, really. If Disney decides to kill SE, tough. All we can hope is that the Imagineers have something in store for it worth of their title.
Now, we all know whining and complaining ain't gonna do no good, and that's why this discussion is great, because we're pondering facts and suppositions. And that's all we can do, really. If Disney decides to kill SE, tough. All we can hope is that the Imagineers have something in store for it worth of their title.
Disneynutcase
New Member
Not to be , but...
Okay, maybe I am . But Space Mountain is NOT a wild mouse coaster. Wild Mouse is Mulholland Madness and Primeveal Whirl--coasters with very few drops and insanely quick hairpin turns, and (here's the biggie) no banked tracks.
SM is a steel rail glider coaster--not even sure that's the actual definition for what it is. But if it stood as just a coaster, it's main attraction would be its speed, several small to medium dips, and its banked turns.
Wild Mouse gives you an effect of pulling you out of your seat in gut wrenching fashion when it hits its turns. Steel Gliders tend to bank and let gravity suck you into your seat, creating a totally different effect.
But with that said, I agree on the analogy that SM, like most Disney coasters, being relatively dressed-up common theme park fare. But to differentiate on the point, Disney coasters (at least the popular ones) are all pretty much distinct due to their superior themings and added special effects. Plain and simply, they don't share similar types of tracks, motions, etc, which make them distinct from one another. But in the case of the spate of Dumbo-like rides, despite all their neat theming, the rides mainly do the same thing--up & down, round & round--which make them nothing more than copies.
I know this argument is kind of apples & oranges, but, to me at least, it seems like Disney is not doing much that's original of late. Ever since n AK and DCA began to be built, it seems that maybe one out of every four or five new attractions are now truly innovative. The rest are quick fix glossed up standard theme park rides or copies of stuff from other Disney parks.
But if you look at the employee cutbacks at WDI (Imagineering), perhaps that's indicative of why we're getting so many mediocre new attractions.
The only exciting thing about Time Racers is that, due to its intended location and the once-popular attraction it will allegedly replace, it's going to have to be an innovative well-talked about attraction, thrill ride or not. And if that doesn't happen, then God save the Walt Disney Company, and it'll be time for us Disney fans to start gathering a lynch mob.
Okay, maybe I am . But Space Mountain is NOT a wild mouse coaster. Wild Mouse is Mulholland Madness and Primeveal Whirl--coasters with very few drops and insanely quick hairpin turns, and (here's the biggie) no banked tracks.
SM is a steel rail glider coaster--not even sure that's the actual definition for what it is. But if it stood as just a coaster, it's main attraction would be its speed, several small to medium dips, and its banked turns.
Wild Mouse gives you an effect of pulling you out of your seat in gut wrenching fashion when it hits its turns. Steel Gliders tend to bank and let gravity suck you into your seat, creating a totally different effect.
But with that said, I agree on the analogy that SM, like most Disney coasters, being relatively dressed-up common theme park fare. But to differentiate on the point, Disney coasters (at least the popular ones) are all pretty much distinct due to their superior themings and added special effects. Plain and simply, they don't share similar types of tracks, motions, etc, which make them distinct from one another. But in the case of the spate of Dumbo-like rides, despite all their neat theming, the rides mainly do the same thing--up & down, round & round--which make them nothing more than copies.
I know this argument is kind of apples & oranges, but, to me at least, it seems like Disney is not doing much that's original of late. Ever since n AK and DCA began to be built, it seems that maybe one out of every four or five new attractions are now truly innovative. The rest are quick fix glossed up standard theme park rides or copies of stuff from other Disney parks.
But if you look at the employee cutbacks at WDI (Imagineering), perhaps that's indicative of why we're getting so many mediocre new attractions.
The only exciting thing about Time Racers is that, due to its intended location and the once-popular attraction it will allegedly replace, it's going to have to be an innovative well-talked about attraction, thrill ride or not. And if that doesn't happen, then God save the Walt Disney Company, and it'll be time for us Disney fans to start gathering a lynch mob.
General Grizz
New Member
Ditto that!
We're as close as they get to the best of fans...
(They hear us. Let see if they listen...)
We're as close as they get to the best of fans...
(They hear us. Let see if they listen...
)
SirNim
Well-Known Member
SirNimajneb- king of parallels, comparisions, parables, fables, ratios, etc...
Epcot is like Experiment 626.
Created with basic foundations and a strong purpose...
Over the course of time, these foundations and this purpose begin to melt away, exposing a new, superficial level.
The original reality exists subliminally...
But it has been taken away by a more powerful force...
in the case of Experiment 626, the more powerful force is Love.
in the case of Epcot, the more powerful force is Thrill...
Think.
Epcot is like Experiment 626.
Created with basic foundations and a strong purpose...
Over the course of time, these foundations and this purpose begin to melt away, exposing a new, superficial level.
The original reality exists subliminally...
But it has been taken away by a more powerful force...
in the case of Experiment 626, the more powerful force is Love.
in the case of Epcot, the more powerful force is Thrill...
Think.
WDWspider
New Member
I think one problem is the name... Racer just screams out fast paced, action, thrills. I don't think that this is meant to be a thrill ride at all. Hopefully this is a code name, and a more all encompassing family ride name will come about in the end.
Time Travelers is more friendly but still exciting sounding. Of course we need to know more about the ride system and story before drawing acurate conclusions, but I agree with the other three posters, this ride redesign is a critical one.
Time Travelers is more friendly but still exciting sounding. Of course we need to know more about the ride system and story before drawing acurate conclusions, but I agree with the other three posters, this ride redesign is a critical one.
Raidermatt
Active Member
One quick note on Soarin'...
Yes, its an innovative ride mechanism, and its a lot of fun.
Bravo!
However, there is no story, and virtually no real themeing around the attraction. This is something I didn't think too much about the first time I rode it, because it really was a great ride. But when you go back, and start comparing it to the classic Disney attractions, you realize its missing all of the stuff that usually surrounds Disney's best rides.
Its the difference between fun, and MAGIC.
Nothing wrong with just being fun. It works for a lot of companies, and it will probably still make some money for Disney. But that's not what made Disney BELOVED. Fun is not the only thing that made Disney the premier family vacation destination in the WORLD. Disney always offered more than just a fun ride...
Ok, I said a "quick note", so I'll stop for now...:animwink:
Yes, its an innovative ride mechanism, and its a lot of fun.
Bravo!
However, there is no story, and virtually no real themeing around the attraction. This is something I didn't think too much about the first time I rode it, because it really was a great ride. But when you go back, and start comparing it to the classic Disney attractions, you realize its missing all of the stuff that usually surrounds Disney's best rides.
Its the difference between fun, and MAGIC.
Nothing wrong with just being fun. It works for a lot of companies, and it will probably still make some money for Disney. But that's not what made Disney BELOVED. Fun is not the only thing that made Disney the premier family vacation destination in the WORLD. Disney always offered more than just a fun ride...
Ok, I said a "quick note", so I'll stop for now...:animwink:
Remember the old Wendy's add compaign in the 80's?...."Where's the beef?"
Ok, ...we should start a new movement with a goal of keepping WDI true to it's roots.
Every movement needs a slogan. Our slogan will be:
"Where's the spirit?"
"Where's the heart?"
or even better...."Where's the MAGIC?"
This simple question can be used as a foundation for evaluating EVERYTHING that WDI creates in the future. If an attraction truely has "magic" and touches or hearts.....it will be a guaranteed hit! ( Walt PROVED this theory)
We could have cool shirts made up..."Where's the magic??"
CM's will see us comming and call us the "Magic police" or something.
WDI, please don't try to impress us with some high-tech mechanics...appeal to our sense of wonderment. Put some new music back into that big silver ball.
Just because a ride that is "high-tech" does not necessarilly mean it has "magic". WDI MUST know this!
CT : - )
Ok, ...we should start a new movement with a goal of keepping WDI true to it's roots.
Every movement needs a slogan. Our slogan will be:
"Where's the spirit?"
"Where's the heart?"
or even better...."Where's the MAGIC?"
This simple question can be used as a foundation for evaluating EVERYTHING that WDI creates in the future. If an attraction truely has "magic" and touches or hearts.....it will be a guaranteed hit! ( Walt PROVED this theory)
We could have cool shirts made up..."Where's the magic??"
CM's will see us comming and call us the "Magic police" or something.
WDI, please don't try to impress us with some high-tech mechanics...appeal to our sense of wonderment. Put some new music back into that big silver ball.
Just because a ride that is "high-tech" does not necessarilly mean it has "magic". WDI MUST know this!
CT : - )
General Grizz
New Member
Check your PM box. It's already been done
What I think they need is a Constitution...
Thou shalt replace with essence
Thou shalt replace with quality
Thou shalt not replace Carousel of Progress...
What I think they need is a Constitution...
Thou shalt replace with essence
Thou shalt replace with quality
Thou shalt not replace Carousel of Progress...
SirNim
Well-Known Member
Originally posted by grizzlyhall
Check your PM box. It's already been done
What I think they need is a Constitution...
Thou shalt replace with essence
Thou shalt replace with quality
Thou shalt not replace Carousel of Progress...
Thou shalt honor they founder, Walt Disney!
Thou shalt not honor false idols, like money.
Thou shalt not covet Universal Studio's ride systems!
Thou shalt not create excuses for shortcomings.
Thou shalt remember the magic! in music, light, story, adventure, experience, memory, purpose, and in all thy creations!