Tiana's Bayou Adventure: Disneyland Watch & Discussion

[el_super]

When word surfaced that Disney was planning a water ride based on “Song of the South” called “Zip-a-Dee River Run,” even us bigtime Disney fans were wondering why-oh-why Disney would build ANYTHING based on Song of the South, which was a controversial film even then.

I thought I posted this before, but this was from the LA Times right when the ride was being announced... in 1987 (bold mine):

The amusement park plans to break ground this summer on “Splash Mountain,” a ride featuring characters from Disney’s “Song of the South.” The ride will serenade customers with a rousing version of “Zip-a-Dee-Doo-Dah"--the Academy Award-winning movie theme--as they float along a man-made river, watching Br’er Rabbit outwitting Br’er Fox and Br’er Bear in scenes taken from the animated portions of the film.​

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The movie has sparked controversy since its premier in 1946 because of its depiction in live-action scenes of relationships between slaves and plantation owners in the pre-Civil War South. But Disney officials say they do not expect the ride to provoke criticism because it uses only the animated animal characters.​

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Disneyland to Offer Ride With Lots of Zip (a-Dee-Doo-Dah)

Disneyland is planning a new ride that will offer a respite of sorts to park visitors who just can't handle one more exposure to the haunting melody of the Small World theme song.

www.latimes.com

 

[Californian Elitist]

I think we’re back to the same thing as before. What would a Br’er Rabbit attraction look like if it wasn’t based on the Joel Chandler stories. How would it be any different?

It would be based on the original African folktales and/or the African American versions of the stories that Harris may have edited.

 

[Donaldfan1934]

The majority opinion that SotS is problematic.

Even if that’s the case, most people don’t seem to take enough issue with the Splash Mountain attractions themselves to where they feel the attraction needs to go. To me, this says that Disney could’ve taken the opportunity to provide a new context for the attraction if they wanted to.

 

[EagleScout610]

To me, this says that Disney could’ve taken the opportunity to provide a new context for the attraction if they wanted to.

This is Disney's approach of "Let's lock SotS in the vault and pretend it doesn't exist" backfiring. Rather than produce new material with the characters they now can't without facing "DIsNEy CreAtES SerIeS AbOuT RACisT MoVIe" backlash

 

[Rich T]

The only reason Splash is popular with the GP is because it’s an impressive-looking log flume ride.

It will continue to be a popular, impressive-looking log flume ride after the retheme.

And Disneyland will no longer have to deal with the embarrassment of having one of its biggest rides be based on a property they wish didn’t exist.

 

[Californian Elitist]

Even if that’s the case, most people don’t seem to take enough issue with the Splash Mountain attractions themselves to where they feel the attraction needs to go. To me, this says that Disney could’ve taken the opportunity to provide a new context for the attraction if they wanted to.

That’s the thing, Disney doesn’t want to provide new context. They’re not interested in looking into the original folktales. They want to make the problem go away and the way of doing that is scrubbing it altogether. This is what Disney does, they erase things. They erased Sunflower from Fantasia, SotS is officially unavailable to view anywhere in the US, Splash Mountain is being ripped from the park, etc. They don’t actually create spaces for discussion and let their controversial material exist. They do the thing that’s the most unhelpful: erase.

 

[Rich T]

This is Disney's approach of "Let's lock SotS in the vault and pretend it doesn't exist" backfiring. Rather than produce new material with the characters they now can't without facing "DIsNEy CreAtES SerIeS AbOuT RACisT MoVIe" backlash

But why do ANYTHING with the SotS characters when there are literally hundreds of other more popular and less divisive characters in their library to draw on? You don’t see WB producing plushies based on their no-longer-screened racially insensitive cartoon shorts.

 

[Californian Elitist]

The only reason Splash is popular is with the GP is because it’s an impressive-looking log flume ride.

It will continue to be a popular, impressive-looking log flume ride after the retheme.

And Disneyland will no longer have to deal with the embarrassment of having one of its biggest rides be based on a property they wish didn’t exist.

Yep. It’s been made clear many times that the general public really only cares about being entertained. They’re not interested in the history, small details, theming, etc. As long as something is fun, they’re here for it.

The “new” PatF ride will most likely be popular because it’s “new” and will be based on a princess film.

 

[Donaldfan1934]

How is this contradictory? Song of the South (the movie) was based on stories appropriated by Joel Chandler Harris (Uncle Remus Stories). Basing a movie off a previously appropriated work, is still appropriation. The Brer stories themselves are not the issue, and I would think away forward for fixing the ride would be to have black writers and story tellers familiar with the tale, come in and re-envision the movie from the ground up: new characterizations, new settings and new music.

Somehow though, I don't think people really care about preserving the cultural legacy and importance of these stories... they just want to keep the movie elements they are familiar with. That's a huge problem and another reason the ride needs to go.

So, basically, you think the ride can be redeemed if they remove elements specifically derived from the movie, but because some people are motivated to save the attraction because of those elements, it’s more important to punish them for their wrongthink even if the stories themselves eventually become eternally demonized in the process. Got it.

 

[Donaldfan1934]

That’s the thing, Disney doesn’t want to provide new context. They’re not interested in looking into the original folktales. They want to make the problem go away and the way of doing that is scrubbing it altogether. This is what Disney does, they erase things. They erased Sunflower from Fantasia, SotS is officially unavailable to view anywhere in the US, Splash Mountain is being ripped from the park, etc. They don’t actually create spaces for discussion and let their controversial material exist. They do the thing that’s the most unhelpful: erase.

I’m perfectly well-aware of what Disney wants. I’m just saying what they want is completely wrongheaded and has ultimately caused and will continue to cause more harm than good for all parties involved.

 

[Californian Elitist]

I’m perfectly well-aware of what Disney wants. I’m just saying what they want is completely wrongheaded and has ultimately caused and will continue to cause more harm than good for all parties involved.

I think most of us agree with that and have been saying this since they announced the new project.

 

[Californian Elitist]

Speaking of Sunflower, I literally just realized there were two black caricatured centaurs in Fantasia, Sunflower and another one, apparently named Otika.

If I was artistically talented, I’d redesign both characters because they deserve better.

 

[el_super]

Even if that’s the case, most people don’t seem to take enough issue with the Splash Mountain attractions themselves to where they feel the attraction needs to go. To me, this says that Disney could’ve taken the opportunity to provide a new context for the attraction if they wanted to.

Aren't they doing that? Aren't they changing out the context of the ride?

So, basically, you think the ride can be redeemed if they remove elements specifically derived from the movie, but because some people are motivated to save the attraction because of those elements, it’s more important to punish them for their wrongthink even if the stories themselves eventually become eternally demonized in the process. Got it.

I am saying that the calls to save the characters and stories are disingenuous because really they are aiming to preserve what is already there (the writings/characters/music from the ill-gotten movie), and not an effort to actually provide context and elevate the original origin and intent of the stories.

There is this false hope that there is some word, writing, or some "context" that they can draw around the ride that would make it acceptable as-is and the Splash Mountain of today can stay. There isn't. Any attempt to save the attraction as it exists today, would be an acknowledgement from Disney, that racism is acceptable when used in as the basis for a theme park ride.

I’m perfectly well-aware of what Disney wants. I’m just saying what they want is completely wrongheaded and has ultimately caused and will continue to cause more harm than good for all parties involved.

Not really.

 

[Donaldfan1934]

This is Disney's approach of "Let's lock SotS in the vault and pretend it doesn't exist" backfiring.

I wouldn’t disagree that’s at the root of much of the backlash, but maybe it’s not actually backfiring in Disney’s eyes. Maybe backlash is what Disney, or at least Iger, wanted all along with this approach. The current brass at Disney has always wanted to push changes in the parks further than ever, but couldn’t because of certain sacred cows. By taking a stricter stance on SotS than previous CEO’s, Iger pretty much set up the domino effect that’s going to result in numerous changes regarding the sacred cows of the parks under the guise of “inclusivity”. It’s certainly food for thought, but whether this approach was intended to have these consequences or not, it’s still completely wrongheaded and has ultimately caused and will continue to cause more harm than good for all parties involved as I’ve previously stated.

 

[el_super]

By taking a stricter stance on SotS than previous CEO’s, Iger pretty much set up the domino effect that’s going to result in numerous changes regarding the sacred cows of the parks under the guise of “inclusivity”.

They have a long history of making changes in the parks without citing inclusivity, so why would they feel the need to start now?

It’s certainly food for thought, but whether this approach was intended to have these consequences or not, it’s still completely wrongheaded and has ultimately caused and will continue to cause more harm than good for all parties involved as I’ve previously stated.

It will do no harm. Just like the changes with Tower of Terror and the Rivers of America and Small World and Pixar Pier, there will be a lot of furor and complaints and attendance will still go up. They don't make changes to appease the people going to the parks today, but to encourage new visitors in the future.

And really, what excuse is there to keep the ride the same for 30 years?

 

[Rich T]

Tony Baxter stuck in traffic: “WHOA! We can reuse the America Sings AAs if we base the log ride on... on... on Song of the South!”

Me Pulling Up Alongside in Time Traveling Delorean: “TONY, NO!!! NO!!! Theme it to The Rescuers! Or Robin Hood!!! Or Humphrey Bear!!! Or, heck. PAUL BUNYAN!!!”

Tony Baxter Stuck in Traffic: “You’re right, those are much better! (Laughs) What was I thinking? Thanks, Old FutureDude!”

 

[EagleScout610]

Tony Baxter stuck in traffic: “WHOA! We can reuse the America Sings AAs if we base the log ride on... on... on Song of the South!”

Me Pulling Up Alongside in Time Traveling Delorean: “TONY, NO!!! NO!!! Theme it to The Rescuers! Or Robin Hood!!! Or Humphrey Bear!!! Or, heck. PAUL BUNYAN!!!”

Tony Baxter Stuck in Traffic: “You’re right, those are much better! (Laughs) What was I thinking? Thanks, Old FutureDude!”

Tony: "By the way, think they'll make anymore Star Wars films?"

 

[Donaldfan1934]

Aren't they doing that? Aren't they changing out the context of the ride?

Don’t you do that. You know exactly what I’m talking about when I talk about providing new context for the attraction.

I am saying that the calls to save the characters and stories are disingenuous because really they are aiming to preserve what is already there (the writings/characters/music from the ill-gotten movie), and not an effort to actually provide context and elevate the original origin and intent of the stories.

There is this false hope that there is some word, writing, or some "context" that they can draw around the ride that would make it acceptable as-is and the Splash Mountain of today can stay. There isn't. Any attempt to save the attraction as it exists today, would be an acknowledgement from Disney, that racism is acceptable when used in as the basis for a theme park ride.

That’s a very broad generalization to assume that the calls to save the characters and stories are inherently disingenuous. Even though you’ve taken issue with how these stories ended up being preserved and popularized, you can’t let your absolutist stance on that blind you from the fact that many people have come to appreciate the core elements and messages of the stories through the attraction and not just their packaging. And even if a majority of people want to see other elements of the attraction preserved in the process, who are you to push for an all out erasure of these stories just because they see redemption in elements where you cannot?

Aren't they doing that? Aren't they changing out

There is this false hope that there is some word, writing, or some "context" that they can draw around the ride that would make it acceptable as-is and the Splash Mountain of today can stay. There isn't. Any attempt to save the attraction as it exists today, would be an acknowledgement from Disney, that racism is acceptable when used in as the basis for a theme park ride.



Not really.

How does Disney’s approach not create more harm than good for all parties involved? By trying to hide and erase their controversial material rather than acknowledge it, they’ve created a space where we can’t have honest discussions about said material, which allows radicalized positions on them to further develop and inevitably leads to the wholesale demonization of everyone and everything relating to them regardless of any nuance the situation may require.

 

[el_super]

Don’t you do that. You know exactly what I’m talking about when I talk about providing new context for the attraction.

No I don't. What exactly is your "new vision" context to make Splash Mountain more appropriate?

And even if a majority of people want to see other elements of the attraction preserved in the process, who are you to push for an all out erasure of these stories just because they see redemption in elements where you cannot?

I'm not the one removing the ride. Disney is. I just happen to agree with Disney on this point. A theme park setting isn't the place to try to provide history and context. If people found a positive connection to those stories via Splash Mountain, that's great... but let's not try to pretend that the log flume ride at Disneyland is the most appropriate way to teach African folklore.

How does Disney’s approach not create more harm than good for all parties involved? By trying to hide and erase their controversial material rather than acknowledge it, they’ve created a space where we can’t have honest discussions about said material, which allows radicalized positions on them to further develop and inevitably leads to the wholesale demonization of everyone and everything relating to them regardless of any nuance the situation may require.

So basically you're suggesting the racist ride has to stay because otherwise the racists will be angry that it's remove and become even more racist? That's pretty extreme.

The only people being hurt in this are people who want Splash to stay and will stubbornly insist that any future attraction isn't good enough. Most people will move on and in 20 years Splash Mountain will end up being confused with Chuck E Cheese in memory.

 

[Donaldfan1934]

No I don't. What exactly is your "new vision" context to make Splash Mountain more appropriate?

Well, for one, I would suggest that Disney with people like Miss Georgia who was mentioned earlier in this thread that have a close relationship with these stories and work to preserve them. If there’s anyone who should influence what this ride could look like going forward, it should be them. There should also be an exhibit of some kind at the end that exposes guests to more Br’er Rabbit stories and actively encourages them to develop a further interest in the tales.

I'm not the one removing the ride. Disney is. I just happen to agree with Disney on this point. A theme park setting isn't the place to try to provide history and context. If people found a positive connection to those stories via Splash Mountain, that's great... but let's not try to pretend that the log flume ride at Disneyland is the most appropriate way to teach African folklore.

You may not have made the decision, but you certainly are pushing for it in a way that demonizes the perspectives of others. Also, theme parks and Disney theme parks in particular have educated people on a wide array of different topics. Many of the attractions at EPCOT and DAK alone have sparked passions in guests that have often went onto influence their real world careers and lifestyle. Even Disneyland has strived for something greater than shallow entertainment since its dedication.

“To all who come to this happy place; welcome. Disneyland is your land. Here age relives fond memories of the past…and here youth may savor the challenge and promise of the future. Disneyland is dedicated to the ideals, the dreams and the hard facts that have created America…with the hope that it will be a source of joy and inspiration to all the world.” (Walt Disney, July 17, 1955).

Considering that Disneyland is dedicated to the ideals, the dreams and the hard facts that have created America, it would be a crime to prevent stories that have influenced a good portion of American culture from inspiring others because of mistakes made with their handling in the past. In fact, those mistakes should emphasize the responsibility Disney has ensuring their reputations can be improved for future generations.

So basically you're suggesting the racist ride has to stay because otherwise the racists will be angry that it's remove and become even more racist? That's pretty extreme.

The only people being hurt in this are people who want Splash to stay and will stubbornly insist that any future attraction isn't good enough. Most people will move on and in 20 years Splash Mountain will end up being confused with Chuck E Cheese in memory.

You’re pretty extreme in insinuating everyone who’s angry over the ride’s removal is racist. In various ways, shapes and forms, Splash Mountain has been an institution that brought meaningful joy and inspiration to millions around the world. The fact that you’re demonizing and belittling our perspectives is proof that Disney’s actions have in fact created a space where we can’t have honest discussions about their controversial material, allowing radicalized positions on them to further develop and inevitably result the wholesale demonization of everyone and everything relating to them regardless of any nuance the situation may require.