Theme parks' squabbling could kill bullet train project

[cloudboy]

First, NOT a bullet train. Bullet trains are a specific design which run on segregated track on a different gauge. This is just High Speed Rail. Like Amtrak's Acella or the ones they have in France and Engalns and Germany. Meaning it could be designed to use already existing rails. It doesn't even have to be super high-speed - it is too short for that kind of need. They can just run regular electric or diesel high speed trains and get nearly as fast times.

It's not a matter of whether a rail line is good or bad - in this case it is how it is going to be implemented. Disney is basically blackmailing the thing, by saying we will not contribute any money, let you build track through our land, or let you build a station, if it does anything other than serve as a direct link to connect Disney and the two airports (Tampa and Orlando) and completely isolate the other competition in the area. Fact is it is selfish AND very detrimental to any buisnesses in the area. Not to mention a big waste of money to essentially support one company.

I think they should just ignore Disney, take the land for through rtacks by Eminent Domain, and build a station in the Lake Buena Vista/ I Drive area. If Disney wants service, let the use a bus like everyone else. I know they said that if that was done, then they would simply use their own busses at the airport. Fine - but treat them just like Mears. They shouldn't get any special treatment - that would be monopolistic. I am surprised that those companies havn't already used that in court already.

 

[peter11435]

First, NOT a bullet train. Bullet trains are a specific design which run on segregated track on a different gauge. This is just High Speed Rail. Like Amtrak's Acella or the ones they have in France and Engalns and Germany. Meaning it could be designed to use already existing rails. It doesn't even have to be super high-speed - it is too short for that kind of need. They can just run regular electric or diesel high speed trains and get nearly as fast times.

It's not a matter of whether a rail line is good or bad - in this case it is how it is going to be implemented. Disney is basically blackmailing the thing, by saying we will not contribute any money, let you build track through our land, or let you build a station, if it does anything other than serve as a direct link to connect Disney and the two airports (Tampa and Orlando) and completely isolate the other competition in the area. Fact is it is selfish AND very detrimental to any buisnesses in the area. Not to mention a big waste of money to essentially support one company.

I think they should just ignore Disney, take the land for through rtacks by Eminent Domain, and build a station in the Lake Buena Vista/ I Drive area. If Disney wants service, let the use a bus like everyone else. I know they said that if that was done, then they would simply use their own busses at the airport. Fine - but treat them just like Mears. They shouldn't get any special treatment - that would be monopolistic. I am surprised that those companies havn't already used that in court already.

The problem is that through Eminent Domain the state could not run rails through disney property, or buid a station. And without Disney's support(money, and riders) the entire project will fail.

 

[MouseRight]

.... Disney is basically blackmailing the thing, by saying we will not contribute any money, let you build track through our land, or let you build a station, if it does anything other than serve as a direct link to connect Disney and the two airports (Tampa and Orlando) and completely isolate the other competition in the area. Fact is it is selfish AND very detrimental to any buisnesses in the area. Not to mention a big waste of money to essentially support one company.

I think they should just ignore Disney, take the land for through rtacks by Eminent Domain, and build a station in the Lake Buena Vista/ I Drive area. If Disney wants service, let the use a bus like everyone else. I know they said that if that was done, then they would simply use their own busses at the airport. Fine - but treat them just like Mears. They shouldn't get any special treatment - that would be monopolistic. I am surprised that those companies havn't already used that in court already.

All of your arguments are sound and just. However, have you ever heard about the 800 Pound Gorilla? Disney is the 800 Pound Gorilla in this scenario. The state wants their support, money, land (much easier to get it from Disney than use immanent domain - whose house should they take away?), etc. etc. Given what Disney has done for the economy of Central Florida, (did anyone know where Orlando was before Walt bought the property?) they have the power, clout and the right and obligation to push for their agenda.

 

[MissM]

(did anyone know where Orlando was before Walt bought the property?)

Yeah my mom lived in what's now Winter Park back in the 60's. Dirt roads, moble homes and orange groves she told me. She still can't believe what it looks like these days!
-m

 

[MouseRight]

Yeah my mom lived in what's now Winter Park back in the 60's. Dirt roads, moble homes and orange groves she told me. She still can't believe what it looks like these days!
-m

Off topic. My wife and I went to WDW for our Honeymoon in May 1977. We drove from the Airport to WDW. Driving West on I-4 between Universal and WDW as you get close to Route 535 and WDW on the North side of I-4 it was all orange groves. Right where the hotels, shopping malls, and restaurants are now.

 

[phlydude]

As far as the state taking land from Disney, it's not going to happen. The original deals gave right of way for highways and Disney bought that property there for a reason. In addition, as much money the municipalities of LBV and Bay Lake generate for the state, they are not going to tick Disney off!

Besides, doesn't Disney have more money than the state of FL???? :lol:
Well, probably more lawyers!!

 

[cloudboy]

Disney is the 800 Pound Gorilla in this scenario.

Exactly. Pardon me for being leftist on this, but that is precisely why the best solution will not be the one built while corporate greed gets it's way and basically ruins everything for everyone else in that part of the satae. Florida really seems to suck as a place for thinking about it's residents. They should get the balls to stand up to Disney and say fine, we ARE going to take the land to at least build the rails through. But they are the pet big company - they think the entire world revolves around Walt Disney World and screw everyone else.

I had better go cool down now.

why don't they just build their own private landing strip and fly their own airline into it. Man, what did I just suggest - why did I open my mouth?

 

[ClemsonTigger]

Sometimes the Gorilla is right

Exactly. Pardon me for being leftist on this, but that is precisely why the best solution will not be the one built while corporate greed gets it's way and basically ruins everything for everyone else in that part of the satae. Florida really seems to suck as a place for thinking about it's residents. They should get the balls to stand up to Disney and say fine, we ARE going to take the land to at least build the rails through. But they are the pet big company - they think the entire world revolves around Walt Disney World and screw everyone else.

I had better go cool down now.

why don't they just build their own private landing strip and fly their own airline into it. Man, what did I just suggest - why did I open my mouth?

Yea, you are wandering in Michael Moore territory on this one. Just because someone (or some company) has money doesn't mean they have to "share". They should have the same rights (or lack of rights) as everyone else.

As was said earlier on this thread, the reason a Disney stop is more logical is that it handles 3+ times as many people as an I drive stop would. End discussion. The only residual is that people don't want Disney treated the same as everyone else.

And yes, changes to Florida constitution has gotten as bad as California. Good ideas yes, but ya gotta have the money. New Jersey only changes the constitution to cover our political dealings, much simpler.

 

[Jeff D]

Some of you are getting two different projects put together. The rail was talked about going to the Orlando airport but that was way back and now theat whole poject is being based on the Orlando Light Rail system that is being designed considering several different technologies. Actually the Las Vegas monorail succes has them very interested in the Disney/ Bombadier sytem that they had no interest in before. They realized that being elevated and single beam meant a far less impact on roads, traffic, and buildings that the systems they were considering didn't help.

I agree with MouseRight on just about every point on this project. I do want to put it out there that Bombadier has been named the primary contractor for the trains and railway but form what I understand they are pushing the state to a high speed bullit train instead of rail due to the failures of the Amtrack System.

My probem with this project is what has been stated but also goes with public transpoartation in general in the US. It completely drives me crazy with the poor systems they have and then they complain nobody uses it.

Here is my the scenario and follow with me it relates to the whole thread. We have this affection with city buses. Some places have subways and/ or trains but those are in such limited use areas they can't relate to most of the country. we have this bus system that runs over and entire city with multiple inefficient routes that takes far too long and way too many stops to get anywhere in a decent amount of time.

What we should be doing is this. The High speed projuect is actually a good start by using a fast train (maglev is still a part of the idea but not for now) to tie the majo metroplolitan areas of the state(s) together. In the cities you incorporate a non-intrusive light rail system to tie together the major areas of your city.

I prefer a monorail or elevated system for the limited impact on traffic with only stops at major areas not every half mile and it needs to move at a decent speed. I cannot stand when these are super slow.

Now you use your buses (or other means that are found to be needed) for the frequent stops within each given area of the city. This is the complete hub and spoke idea with each form of transportation serving what it was desinged to do.

The Florida project started out as a beginning to this goal and has quickly headed to how many stops can we get away with to please the ones with the influence. It's a shame but until the above can actually be realized i say kill the project.

Nobody wats the above system because they claim it's too confusing. I say quit spoon feeding the people and make them start using their brains.

Those of you in Orlando and Tampa with the horrible traffic and one main road need to start pushing those in charge to get teh beltway plans sitting there on the way. In Tampa the eastward extension of 275 east to circle north and connect north of that region would give you a way around Lakeland that has had a lot of designing but sits there due to bicking over who will benefit the most. Same with Orlando. A doule beltway has been designed for the most part that would make it far easier to move from each side of the city but again lowly bickering is holding it up.

Sorry for the long rant but i had to get it out there.

 

[cloudboy]

Are you sure on that? My understanding was that the light rail project was defeated (this would have served I drive and the environs). The high speed rail connector from Tampa, and eventually on to Daytona, was part of the constitutional ammendment. Bombardier is trying/succeded in convincing them to go with the turbine powered trains instead of the electrified ones that Acela uses. Thus where the Jet Train name came from.

As far as the constitutional bit goes - well, that's what happens when you have a government that isn't much of a representation of the people. The people eventually turn to a higher level. Sorry, couldn't resist.

As for Clemson Tiger, why should the government throw all it's money to support one company and basically screw over the other companies and the people? If Disney wants their own private system, let them pay for it all by themselves. There is more to Orlando than Disney, and the state and county have a duty to everyone, not just the pet company.

And how does one stop at Disney make any sense? It only serves that one bracket, and more importantly makes everyone have to find alternative transportation. Not very efficient.

 

[peter11435]

Exactly. Pardon me for being leftist on this, but that is precisely why the best solution will not be the one built while corporate greed gets it's way and basically ruins everything for everyone else in that part of the satae. Florida really seems to suck as a place for thinking about it's residents. They should get the balls to stand up to Disney and say fine, we ARE going to take the land to at least build the rails through. But they are the pet big company - they think the entire world revolves around Walt Disney World and screw everyone else.

I had better go cool down now.

why don't they just build their own private landing strip and fly their own airline into it. Man, what did I just suggest - why did I open my mouth?

Again the state will not take land from Disney. That would be near impossible and would create a huge battle between the two. And like it or not the entire world (of central Florida, and a good chunk of the rest of the state) does revolve around Walt Disney World. There was a recent study that was posted here that showed the total economic impact of the resort on the state, and how much tax money every resident in Florida saves each year because of the resort. If you saw these numbers you would also say, "what ever you do give Disney what they want". And like I said building without a stop at Disney would make the whole project a failure. Disney will bring more riders to the system than any other destination. So even if they did just take the land it would be pointless.

 

[MouseRight]

As for Clemson Tiger, why should the government throw all it's money to support one company and basically screw over the other companies and the people? If Disney wants their own private system, let them pay for it all by themselves. There is more to Orlando than Disney, and the state and county have a duty to everyone, not just the pet company.

And how does one stop at Disney make any sense? It only serves that one bracket, and more importantly makes everyone have to find alternative transportation. Not very efficient.

I am against the High Speed Rail or Bullet Train or whatever they call it until they can show us what the real economic and environmental costs are.

However, I think you are looking at this from the wrong angle. You are totally focused on teh fact that Disney will benefit. Let's forget about who pays for it or builds it. What is best for the average guest/visitor? It is not only Disney that benefits from the rail station being close to Disney, it is the majority of visitors who will benefit. Fact is Disney and the surrounding 5 mile radius attracts the majority of the hotel guests/visitors to Central Florida. I am not sure what the actual figures are, but based on the fact that Disney has over 25 resorts on property and their are many more surrounding it that locating the station on the edge of Disney property is actually better for the "average" visitor to Central Florida. A Disney station located on Disney Property in a "High Speed / Low # of Stops System" will benefit more than having it in the "I" corridor. A high speed rail system with one stop by Disney is the way to go for the visitors, economy, logistics, and taxpayers (Disney donates the land and helps fund the construction).

If you are talking about a government financed light rail/monorail line between the Orlando Airport and Disney, of course it should stop at several stops between them to accommodate all.

 

[TTA Traveler]

did anyone mention that rental car companies would be losing tons of business????

 

[cloudboy]

What is best for the average guest/visitor? It is not only Disney that benefits from the rail station being close to Disney, it is the majority of visitors who will benefit.

Why build it then? The tourists going to Disney already get on a mears shuttle and head righ to the parks. That is not a majority of the people on I-4.

Remember that this is still a government project. While Disney will be putting some money torwards it, a majority of it will still be paid for by the government. The idea is to reduce the traffic impact of I-4. You could always tell people to go home - but then they don't spend money and you don't get taxes. A train would theoretically reduce the number of tourists on the road. But lets look at where those tourists are. People flying in (the only non Disney stops are the airports) either rent a car or take a shuttle. Now lets say that the convenience of the train accounts for a portion of the people renting a car. That will reduce the number of cars, but only those who decided to spend that money on staying at the park. If you want to stay in an off site hotel - no go. Want to go somewhere other than on site - well, you'd have to rent a car at the airport. So the only people who it is going to take off of the roads are the people who stay on Disney property. It benefits no one else, and it draws that many people away from local businesses, is it worth spending the money on?


It is dangerous that Orlando is getting so dependant upon the Disney company. What would happen if Comcast did take over, or if Dsiney suddenly found a way to stop paying as much in taxes, Or god forbid something drastic happened to the company and the number of visitors tumbled. I like Walt Disney World, but I don't think it always has our best interests as it's best interests.

 

[Figment1986]

I have been on I-4... it can be dangerous at times... (I was born in 86... and i never remember I-4 not being under construction anywhere...)

I think if we can get this train together and make it FAST... it may work...

As long as i do not get taxed for it... I may ride it if i have to get to orlando or Disney....

If this train project is going to coasts an arm and a legg of each resident or even most people... find a way to make it more finantial... charge disney more

 

[MouseRight]

Why build it then? The tourists going to Disney already get on a mears shuttle and head righ to the parks. That is not a majority of the people on I-4.

It is dangerous that Orlando is getting so dependant upon the Disney company. What would happen if Comcast did take over, or if Dsiney suddenly found a way to stop paying as much in taxes, Or god forbid something drastic happened to the company and the number of visitors tumbled. I like Walt Disney World, but I don't think it always has our best interests as it's best interests.

First, let's remember that we are talking about 2 projects. One is a high speed rail line between major metropolitan hubs in Florida. This is the one that the people of Florida amended their constitution for. I assume one stop would be in Miami, one in Fort Lauderdale, one in West Palm Beach, one in Tampa, etc. etc. Where should this stop go in Orlando? I say that if people are traveling to Central Florida that they are more than likely going to Disney. Thus I buy the argument that the stop should be on the edge of Disney property. Also, under this deal, the government would be saving millions of dollars by not having to buy and seize the land needed for this and some of the right of way that will be needed. Will someone else want to, or be able to, match that deal? No! Universal and Sea World don't have the land.

The other project is a light rail or monorail line between the Orlando Airport and Disney. In this case, they should put in as many stops as they can between the two that will not discourage people from riding due to time delays.

Finally, your final paragraph has some valid concerns. But how are these different than any town in America that is dependent on the local factory or large employer. Look what has happened to Rochester, New York. The area is being decimated by the Kodak and Xerox downsizing and outsourcing. Does the fear of losing the gravy train (pun intended) mean that one should P-O the beast? I don't think so. You and the beast have to peacefully coexist and agree that some things that are good for the beast are, by default, good for you. You work with, and for the beast, until circumstances change. Then you pack up your belongings and find a new life somewhere else. Given that Mickey owns 24 square miles of land in Central Florida and controls the lion' share of the economy, there is no way he can be ignored no matter how much you want to. If you are really concerned about Disney disappearing (God forbid), you shouldn't build anything.

 

[peter11435]

First, let's remember that we are talking about 2 projects. One is a high speed rail line between major metropolitan hubs in Florida. This is the one that the people of Florida amended their constitution for. I assume one stop would be in Miami, one in Fort Lauderdale, one in West Palm Beach, one in Tampa, etc. etc. Where should this stop go in Orlando? I say that if people are traveling to Central Florida that they are more than likely going to Disney. Thus I buy the argument that the stop should be on the edge of Disney property. Also, under this deal, the government would be saving millions of dollars by not having to buy and seize the land needed for this and some of the right of way that will be needed. Will someone else want to, or be able to, match that deal? No! Universal and Sea World don't have the land.

The other project is a light rail or monorail line between the Orlando Airport and Disney. In this case, they should put in as many stops as they can between the two that will not discourage people from riding due to time delays.

Finally, your final paragraph has some valid concerns. But how are these different than any town in America that is dependent on the local factory or large employer. Look what has happened to Rochester, New York. The area is being decimated by the Kodak and Xerox downsizing and outsourcing. Does the fear of losing the gravy train (pun intended) mean that one should P-O the beast? I don't think so. You and the beast have to peacefully coexist and agree that some things that are good for the beast are, by default, good for you. You work with, and for the beast, until circumstances change. Then you pack up your belongings and find a new life somewhere else. Given that Mickey owns 24 square miles of land in Central Florida and controls the lion' share of the economy, there is no way he can be ignored no matter how much you want to. If you are really concerned about Disney disappearing (God forbid), you shouldn't build anything.

Actually I beleive there is only one project. The light rail plans were killed a while ago. The high speed rail however would run from Miami, to tampa, with stops between the two. The MCO to Disney leg is what is being debated here. Disney wants it to come strait to them with no access to other orlando destiantions other than MCO. Other destinations want to be on the line too, Disney says they will not suppot the project if it is not direct to them. Therefore making it pointless to include other orlando destinations if it does not make a stop at Disney. And Disney actualy owns almost 50 square mile is central florida.

 

[ClemsonTigger]

Remember who gets paid

I am against the High Speed Rail or Bullet Train or whatever they call it until they can show us what the real economic and environmental costs are.

However, I think you are looking at this from the wrong angle. You are totally focused on teh fact that Disney will benefit. Let's forget about who pays for it or builds it. What is best for the average guest/visitor? It is not only Disney that benefits from the rail station being close to Disney, it is the majority of visitors who will benefit. Fact is Disney and the surrounding 5 mile radius attracts the majority of the hotel guests/visitors to Central Florida. I am not sure what the actual figures are, but based on the fact that Disney has over 25 resorts on property and their are many more surrounding it that locating the station on the edge of Disney property is actually better for the "average" visitor to Central Florida. A Disney station located on Disney Property in a "High Speed / Low # of Stops System" will benefit more than having it in the "I" corridor. A high speed rail system with one stop by Disney is the way to go for the visitors, economy, logistics, and taxpayers (Disney donates the land and helps fund the construction).

If you are talking about a government financed light rail/monorail line between the Orlando Airport and Disney, of course it should stop at several stops between them to accommodate all.

Cloudboy, please reread this by Mouseright as he is stating my comments in a different way. This rail is not about Disney benefit. You pay the rail line to ride the train, NOT Disney. Disney doesn't care if you use a rental car, limo, Mears or walk onto property, you start paying them after you get there. This does not change numbers visiting Disney or any other park.

As for the wonderful boondoggle of environmental impact, how can a clean rail system replacing a large number of cars and busses be a negative. The only real loosers I see in this are rental car companies, Mears and limo services. As Mouseright also highlighted, the reason for locating ON Disney property is to maximize ridership and therefore revenue for the rail line period. That is called an appropriate business decision.

 

[cloudboy]

When was it extended? I apollogize then, becuase it is obviously a different project. The original project I was aware of was a high speed rail line, that would start at MCO (Orlando International Airport) and then connect to Tampa. The origins lie in simply connecting the two cities, but it became bogged down in airports, and then Disney stepped in.

Disney has every interest in there being a link between the airport and their property. Captive audience. If you can control the customer's vacation the moment they leave the airport building, you are going to be making all of their money. How much money is lost (to Disney's view) to outside companies? How many people make money for Mears that could be going to Disney? How many people stay at an outside hotel instead of a Disney resort? Food outside the park? And all of that is also at an attractive price point, which means guests are that much more sensitive to the price on site (it may not be a large amount, but it still adds up!). Most importantly, by making it that much easier to get to Disney and that much harder to go to one of the other parks, does that not serve to cut down competition?

As far as cutting down on busses and other traffic - the only thing it is really going to replace in the long run is that traffic that goes directly to Disney (and what more they grab away from visiting other destinations). If you are not going to go to Disney and spend your entire vacation there, you are not going to be able to use the train. This is why I am against it, too. All it does is give an example of high speed ail being a high cost project that offers little benefit in the long run. It gives legitimate high speed rail initiatives a bad name, and they need all the help they can get right now.

Oh and as far as corporate towns - that is EXACTLY the point. It is called economic diversification. Citys like Rochester poured too much emphasis in one or two industries, and they got stung. The last thing you want as a economic foundation is dependencie on one company, and even one industry. Focusing on Disney at the exclusion of other tourist companies only hurts the tourist industry base. Good for Disney and bad for everyone else.

Personally, I think it is another case of short sightedness on the behalf of the planners and government and a total lack of interest in the voters in the future that has turned a possibly great project into a nightmare. There should be a high-speed link between all the cities, but let's focus on Tampa and Orlando. The train has five stops - Tampa Airport, Downtown Tampa, LAkeland, A stop somewhere on I-4 around the b-line, and Orlando International. Then build a good rapid transit system that feeds into Disney, I drive, The other park areas, as well as Orlando Center and Winter Park. It would link to the high-speed line at I-4. Yeah, I know it involves a connection, but you know what? People in every other place in the world can handle them, so can the tourists. Give them some credit.

 

[Jeff D]

The Orlando light rail project isn't dead. What happend is they wanted to go with an elevated system and go the cost to build and though it was too high. They then started looking at this womderful system that used electric busses at ground level on normal streets and some dedicated right- of-way. Alot of people complained and they backed off and said they would hold off a bit and look into it further.

Several members, for whatever reason, kept pushing the electric busses but a funny thing happend. The Las Vegas monorail system started taking root, was being built under budget, could accomodate far more people than the busses, was automated, and didn't interfere that much with surface street traffic both during construction and after.

Several council members started question the others why they were pushing a technology that would not be of much benefit and could be more of a cause to congestion that relief. This caused a littel stir and again they have decided to wait to see how feasible the monorail, or similar system, would be.

Last I heard a few months ago is that it has gained alot of momentum, even amoung some of those who opposed, and it is realy getting a strong look at it. Now that Seattle has decided to use the Las Vegas sytem and several other cities are about to go that route themselves Orlando is getting closer to resubmitting this propsal.

They know they need a good light rail system and that it would be a major boom to the toursit industry so it's a matter of time. It could lead to relaeving alot of congestion on I-4 and make it far eaiser to move between the different major tourist areas (I-drive, 192 resort area, various parks, downtown, and the airport) while giving locals a far better way to get around town.

As in all projects this could site there for years or get shot down and tossed but i believe Orlando could really set a precedent of modern inter-city transit if they used the right system and planning.

As for the rail stopping of donated land by Disney I don't care. They do, however, have to allow the local system to connect. The best way to do this is to donate the land and it becomes public land. That way there could be no argument against connections and they benefit with a stop right outside their door. I never thought the I-drive, or airport, stop made much sense to me.

As for how big this project is supposed to be. Originally it was just a high speed link between the Orlando airport and Tampa, but that didn't make Sense. Now it will be a huge project when all phases get completed, if they ever do. A link across between Daytona (originally starting with just Orlando) to Tampa. S. Fla to Orlando and a seperate line to Jacksonville, SW Fla to Tampa, Tampa to Talahassee, Orlando to Tallahassee, and an upper link Form Pensacola thru Tallahassee to Jacksonville. Giving a complete linked sytem to the entire state. I have seen the state maps with propsed lines and it would be great if done but at this point who really knows.