Theme parks' squabbling could kill bullet train project

[peter11435]

As for the rail stopping of donated land by Disney I don't care. They do, however, have to allow the local system to connect. The best way to do this is to donate the land and it becomes public land. That way there could be no argument against connections and they benefit with a stop right outside their door. I never thought the I-drive, or airport, stop made much sense to me.

I highly doubt that disney would have to allow the local system to connect. The government may be able to run rails through disney property, but never a station without disney's approval. Emminant Domain can only go so far.

 

[cloudboy]

The Las Vegas system was anything but underbudget. It went, way, way over - a in multiples of. Lot so foccruption and land costs and majorly bad decisions along the way. Ultimately they didn't care, though, becuase of what it will bring in. Are you sure about Seattle making a final recommendation? I don't think they have gotten there yet. I didn't even know that any other cities at this point were seriously considering Monorail in the US - I know a few had put it up but the Light Rail group pretty well killed all those ideas.

It would work alright if Disney were to allow other companies to use the station on their property, but they are unwilling to allow that. I think in the long run they are seriously shooting themselves in the foot.

I am sure they could take land for a transport system and station - that is done in many places. The problem is how much will it cost and how much fighting will Disney put up. Why it has to be there is still a question to me anyway - why not just outside Disney property along 536 - there was some pretty open land there last time I was there, and it would be close enough that Disney could easilly run busses there.

 

[bgraham34]

I was and do hope that it still will happen. Would that not be fun for a nice ride before you get on the rides in the parks.

 

[peter11435]

The Las Vegas system was anything but underbudget. It went, way, way over - a in multiples of. Lot so foccruption and land costs and majorly bad decisions along the way. Ultimately they didn't care, though, becuase of what it will bring in. Are you sure about Seattle making a final recommendation? I don't think they have gotten there yet. I didn't even know that any other cities at this point were seriously considering Monorail in the US - I know a few had put it up but the Light Rail group pretty well killed all those ideas.

It would work alright if Disney were to allow other companies to use the station on their property, but they are unwilling to allow that. I think in the long run they are seriously shooting themselves in the foot.

I am sure they could take land for a transport system and station - that is done in many places. The problem is how much will it cost and how much fighting will Disney put up. Why it has to be there is still a question to me anyway - why not just outside Disney property along 536 - there was some pretty open land there last time I was there, and it would be close enough that Disney could easilly run busses there.

I just think their is a difference between taking land to build a station servicing many places. Than taking land from disney to build a station for disney. I don't think thay could do that. If the station were to service more than just disney then yes thay could. But you can't force them to have a station.

 

[cloudboy]

That's what taking by emminent domain is. It's a way for the government to forcefully take some property of a private party for use for the better public good. That is how most transportation systems get built. Once the government takes it, it is theirs to do with as they need to (some questions aride from this when they take land and then sell it again at a profit like they do in some large projects).

The big problem comes in figuring out the value of that land and how much the owner has to be compensated. They have to give fair compensation, and Disney can always come out with the fact that their land is incredibly valuable, is land for a resort or something like that - it could potentially prove to be a huge financial cost.

I am nott totally familliar with the land around that part, but why can't they just skirt around Disney to the south? They can always put in a station where I drive and 535 or whatever highway it is that runs through Lake Buena Vista meet?

 

[peter11435]

I still don't think they could build a station on property. Its kind of like the new bonnet creek resort. Since Disney surrounded the property they had to give up land for the access road. However, you could not just take land on disney property to build a hotel. The Government could take land for tracks but a station on disney property, surrounded by disney property, and only servicing disney property would require disny's consent to be constructed. Emminant Domain restricts land owners from being able to stop construction of rails and roads because they are in the way, but does not allow for you to build anything you want on their property. And the problem with skirting around dinsey would be that you would be avoiding the reason mist would use the system or more importantly how it would make money. As far as high speed rail goes, the idea was to connect major destiantions in the state of florida. Too many stops along the way and the system is pointless, the goal should be to only stop at major cities, and while not exactly a city, Disney is just as large a destiantion in the state as any major city.

 

[stingrock23]

I agree with both Universal and Seaworld. I know that a majority of the people who go to Orlando just go to Disney, but alot go to Universal and Seaworld as well. How hard would it be to put another station somewhere along I-drive? I mean, I think by having more than just the Disney station that it would help accomodate people who don't stay at Disney.

Look, i'm a big fan of the mouse and the Magic Kingdom made Orlando what it is, but it's better for all tourists to have more than one stop if this thing gets built.

 

[peter11435]

I agree with both Universal and Seaworld. I know that a majority of the people who go to Orlando just go to Disney, but alot go to Universal and Seaworld as well. How hard would it be to put another station somewhere along I-drive? I mean, I think by having more than just the Disney station that it would help accomodate people who don't stay at Disney.

Look, i'm a big fan of the mouse and the Magic Kingdom made Orlando what it is, but it's better for all tourists to have more than one stop if this thing gets built.

I think that if a light rail/Monorail was built in Orlando that you are right. It should stop at Universal and Sea World as well. However the high speed rail should make as few stops as possible. And Disney is just as worthy of a stop as any city in the state, the other orlando parks are not.

 

[cloudboy]

So then they could not build a toll booth or rest area on a highway, or a terminal building for an airport? That just doesn't make sense. It's part of the public transportation service - they can build a station.

Why would you build a train just to serve Walt Disney World? What more would it accomplish? You could do the same with a simple metro system. Tourists are usually coming in by plane anyway, so a high speed rail would be a little overkill, no? It's not like it is being used to promote more inter city traffic, it doesn't focus on people who want to get from one city in Florida to another.

I think they need to take a step back and look at it in a larger shceme and then decide what makes sense.

 

[peter11435]

So then they could not build a toll booth or rest area on a highway, or a terminal building for an airport? That just doesn't make sense. It's part of the public transportation service - they can build a station.

Thats different, that toll booth or rest area services the highway not the location it is in. Taking land to expand an airport in Orlando or any other city would be different than taking land from disney to build a disney airport. If Disney does not want an airport they can't build one. Like I said if this station were to service more than just disney then yes they could build it. But they can not build a station on disney property that only services Disney if disney does't want it built. Their is big difference between the two.

 

[Rosso11]

I am nott totally familliar with the land around that part, but why can't they just skirt around Disney to the south? They can always put in a station where I drive and 535 or whatever highway it is that runs through Lake Buena Vista meet?

I am not 100% positive but I have heard from numerous sources that Disney actually owns quite a bit of property around the designated borders. They do this to keep control of there immediate surroundings. If you notice right outside of the gates most of the property is still very well maintained which includes nicely kept shopping centers and hotels. You need to drive a while once you leave the designated Disney property with the waving Mickey before you reach a lot of the lower end Motels and stores. Proof of this is the fact that all of the college program kids live outside of the designated property lines in Lake Buena Vista, yet are still technically on Disney property.

 

[MouseRight]

Stop The Train I Want to Get Off! :lol:

Basic Info on the High Speed Project:

The Florida voters amended the state constitution to require the state to build a High Speed Rail System, that will connect major cities within Florida.

In developing that system, the state has created a Phase 1 - Tampa to Orlando Airport.

They are talking about putting a station on this line on 50 Acres of Disney property at the intersection of I-4, 192, and the Osceola Parkway. The state's reason is kind of like Field of Dreams, but the opposite - "If they come, you should build it." Meaning, the majority of people come to Disney, if you don't put a station near Disney, people will not use it.

Disney has offered 50 acres to the project. No charge. Saving Millions of dollars and no hassle to push people off of property somewhere else.

Disney is an official government entity - Reedy Creek Improvement District. I am not a lawyer, but I would think that the state may have trouble taking away Disney land under eminent domain without their approval. My assumption - one government taking land away from another is not kosher. They just don't do it. I know when the local school district, which is an arm of the county, wanted land owned by one of the cities within the county for a school they couldn't do it without agreement from the city involved. I would also guess that the laws that created Reedy Creek prevent this.

Being a High Speed Rail Line whose purpose is to attract people from other major metropolitan areas to ride it to reduce traffic statewide, The state wants to limit the # of stops. The airport stops are necessary to connect to other transportation hubs. That is why the Orlando Airport is a stop in phase 1. Disney is a stop because it is on the line between Orlando and Tampa and it is a major metropolitan area onto itself. Having a stop between Orlando Airport and Disney defeats the "High Speed" of the project.

People coming from Tampa are not gonna want to fly by Disney to a stop in the I-4/International Drive corridor and then get off and go back to Disney on a bus or whatever.

Let's also remember that the proposed location is about a 10 minute drive from Sea World (on back roads) and probably a 15-20 minute drive to Universal (on I-4). No one who takes the train from Tampa or Miami and gets off at this stop is gonna complain that they have to take a 10 to 20 minute bus or monorail (I would love to see a monorail built. Just to validate Walt's hope that major cities would adopt the system).

Gotta go do some work. More to follow later.

 

[peter11435]

I think Mouseright is, well, right.

 

[cloudboy]

peter11435-

Huh? I don't get your argument. That is what eminent domain is - taking property by a public entity. Unfortunately it has nothing to do with whther one party likes it or not - if it did they would just buy it outright. They wouldn't need eminent domain!

Rosso11-

What do you mean Disney property versus Disney property they own? Disney has a very large chunk of real estate - not just what most people percieve as the edge of the parks, but things such as Crossroads and Lake Bryan. I am talking going further east than all of that, then swinging down thorugh Kissimmee.

MouseRight-

I understand how you are saying that the majority of users are going to ride from Tampa to Disney. Correct - because those will be the only people who use it. I still don't think people understand what the role of the train is - it is NOT a Disney express. It is supposed to be a link that will 1) aleviate traffic that has to use the I-4 corridor, as well as b) make it easier for people to get from one city to the other. You have to remember that there is a whole lot more to Orland than just Disney and Universal. The number of people going from Tampa to Disney is not enough to justify a high-speed train. The numbers just would not be there.

the problem is, Disney wants to have exclusive rights to it. They will donate the land - IF none of their competitors or other tourist destinations can use it. All that is is getting the government to pay for Disney's exclusive system.

I am not familliar with eminent domain law myself, but Disney property is run by a government board - it is not it's own entity. It is not exclusive form the state. It may be costly, but it can be done. May not even have to. And yes, a higher level government can take over a lower level government. Heck, Boston completely obliterated three towns and took a serious chunk out of 3 more just to build a reservoir.

Again, why is it always what is most convenient to the Disney guest? Why do they get so much more attention? I know they provide a large amounts of taxes, but that is promoting one corporation over another. Isn't that completely illegal? So Disney has to go out and spend money building a link to the train station. Let them spend the money that is only going to support them.

 

[peter11435]

My argument is that station in Disney will for the most part only benefit Disney. Eminent Domain is meant for what is needed to benefit society. The Eminant Domain law while it would require Disney allow roads and rails built through their property would not allow the state to build a station.

If the rail were to be built to the east of Disney yet not stop at Disney what would be the purpose. The other orlando destinations alreadt know had have publicly sad that they want to be on the line that goes from the airport to Disney, not a line that does not go to Disney. Like it or not, Disney remains the sole reason that many orlando attractions make money and are there to begin with. They want to be able to feed off a train of people heading to Disney.

 

[MouseRight]

peter11435-
MouseRight-

I understand how you are saying that the majority of users are going to ride from Tampa to Disney. Correct - because those will be the only people who use it. I still don't think people understand what the role of the train is - it is NOT a Disney express. It is supposed to be a link that will 1) aleviate traffic that has to use the I-4 corridor, as well as b) make it easier for people to get from one city to the other. You have to remember that there is a whole lot more to Orland than just Disney and Universal. The number of people going from Tampa to Disney is not enough to justify a high-speed train. The numbers just would not be there.

the problem is, Disney wants to have exclusive rights to it. They will donate the land - IF none of their competitors or other tourist destinations can use it. All that is is getting the government to pay for Disney's exclusive system.

I am not familliar with eminent domain law myself, but Disney property is run by a government board - it is not it's own entity. It is not exclusive form the state. It may be costly, but it can be done. May not even have to. And yes, a higher level government can take over a lower level government. Heck, Boston completely obliterated three towns and took a serious chunk out of 3 more just to build a reservoir.

First paragraph above - Your arguments are good. However, I'll make some commenst on them.

"The number of people going from Tampa to Disney is not enough to justify a high-speed train. The numbers just would not be there." - You're right but, let's remember this is Phase 1. Unless the people of Florida vote to throw out the amendment, the State of Florida has to build a High Speed Rail System that connects the major metropolitan areas. I don't think of it as a Disney Express. It will eventually be bigger than that.

"the problem is, Disney wants to have exclusive rights to it" - I have not heard this. My understanding is that Disney and the State want to locate the one station that will be between Tampa and the ORlando airport on the edge of Disney property. I have read nothing that says that Disney won't allow other hotels, resorts, and themeparks to send buses to the station. Just think what kind of lawsuits there will be if the State uses public money to build the dam thing, but won't let everyone use it. If they do build a light rail or monorail system in the area it should stop at the same location so people can switch between the two. Remember brother Jeb wants to run for President one day. That kind of controversy won't help him.

"And yes, a higher level government can take over a lower level government." - I wasn't sure about this, but I am willing to bet some dough that the Reedy Creek legislation prohibits this somehow. Remember, the State of Florida bent over backwards, and more, to make Walt happy when he announced that he was building WDW. Anyway, they don't have to seize the land. Disney wants to give it to them. :lol: I drive these roads all of the time. The proposed location is convenient. It's a short drive from there to I-4, Route 535, 536, the Greenway and International Drive and all of the WDW Gates. To me its six of one and half a dozen of another.

Remember, I am against the entire project. But if does get built, Sea World, Universal and everyone else has to remember that:

DISNEY RULES. YEAH! :lol:

 

[cloudboy]

Almost everything I have heard about the project states that Disney is pretty much adamant about not giving access to others. And it would be easy to do - they can easilly exclude any other transportation systems from getting onto the property and traversing those rodas or other types of transit from reaching the station. Let's face it - it is a cash cow for them and they know they have the upper hand.

Brother Jeb is pretty much dead set against it to begin with. I for one would love to see a good high-speed rail link built. But I think that this particular plan has too many faults, and if it IS built, will really only serve to discourage other people from building high-speed rail links.

I also think central Florida has really got to wake up and start thinking a little more globally. They can't base their entire lives around one company. Maybe if they put some effort into something else people would go some place other than Disney. While Disney is drawing a lot of peole, a lot of them are not really helping anyone other than the aiport and Disney itself.

 

[peter11435]

While Disney is drawing a lot of peole, a lot of them are not really helping anyone other than the aiport and Disney itself.

Thats not entirely true if you count for third party vendors and manufactures of merchandise and food products. Not to mention the huge impact of Disney being the largest single site employer. Disney benefits the region as well as the state more than any of us could ever imagine.

 

[cloudboy]

All that still goes back to either Disney or evens out. Whether that work gets split amongst one or five companies - it still is the saem amount.

There's also the argument that a lot of that is purely large corporation product and the real benefits to the average person are mostly as lower level jobs. By decentralizing and focusing on more smaller companies, you are employing a wider spectrum of workers with different levels of experience and skills, and you tend to have much more of the actual company local to you, instead of in an entirely different state.

 

[peter11435]

All that still goes back to either Disney or evens out. Whether that work gets split amongst one or five companies - it still is the saem amount.

There's also the argument that a lot of that is purely large corporation product and the real benefits to the average person are mostly as lower level jobs. By decentralizing and focusing on more smaller companies, you are employing a wider spectrum of workers with different levels of experience and skills, and you tend to have much more of the actual company local to you, instead of in an entirely different state.

What you seem to be forgeting is that is Disney wasn't there, Orlando would not have demand for four or five companies employing tens of thousands of workers.