Theme parks' squabbling could kill bullet train project

[wannab@dis]

Since I live in Florida here's my view. I didn't vote for the railway and wouldn't mind it getting stopped or major changes happening. The biggest complaint I had at the time is how open ended the proposal was. There wasn't much pf a spending limit or strong time frame given to come up with a project. Basically it was a poilitcians dream to use up taxpayers money for whatever they wanted and no have too much accountability.

That is true for almost any government project. The timeline, goals and funding should be explicitly set up prior to the vote. But, it's a catch 22. That type of planning requires a LOT of money and they can't really spend it without the ok of the voters. So, we have the typical gov project. A vote without specifics or specifics without a vote.

I haven't kept up with the specifics of the project, but I thought they were creating first, a high speed rail between cities, and second, spur lines out to the convention center and WDW. If that's not true, then help me out with more information.

If that is true, why doesn't US / SW / I-4 propose a spur line to their location from a station other than WDW. If Disney doesn't want the line from their station directly to their competitor, I can understand. But they should not have any complaints about a similar line to their competitors that they would have. If they do, then hold up their line until they agree to both lines.

Since they are a goverment they could request bonds and Federal subsidies just like the county to build the exspansion.

I don't believe Disney could get funding for projects on their property. I believe the Reedy Creek government controls the property that "includes" Disney, but funding could only be for Reedy Creek "public" property, not Disney property.

 

[626]

It just sounds like Universal and Sea World are a bunch of sore losers to me. Just because it doesn't benefit them they want to axe the whole project?! It sounds like something I'd expect from a 5 year old, not from adults. I echo the earlier post that suggested that they just use the money pooled for DEBT to create some sort of expansion from the train to their own tiny, pitiful insignificant theme parks.

 

[cloudboy]

Couldn't resist replying to this one.

Surprisingly, I am totally against the current plan that they have for high spped rail (PS it is not a bullet train!). While I certainly would support a good rail service, this particular implementation is really, really bad.

A rail service tht would stop only at Disney and then on to Tampa and the west would not drive any more tourism dollars. It does not draw in more people, it only recenters where they spend their money - now completely and totally at Disney. While their tactics are quite questionable, I can certainly see that any of the tourism businesses in Orlando should be fighting this tooth and nail. It will kill them, and it will kill ultimately kill Orlando, as it removes their economic base.

I am also firghtened of what kind of message this is going to send to others looking to implement high speed rail. Suddenly it is going to become a business tool that is used to drive corporate greed over public service - it is going to reflect that high spped rail is economically destructive, and it is going to turn it into another cheap thrill park attraction.

This bothers me so much! Firstly, it shows that all Florida is interested in is corporate dealings and stock holder value than actually servicing it's citizens, secondly it reflects badly on public transportation and high speed rail in particular, and lastly, it really reflects badly on Disney and how greedy and malicious they have become.

 

[MouseRight]

Theme parks' squabbling could kill bullet train project
18 July 2004"

Bullet Train = Fast speeds over long hauls. The purpose of the bullet train that the voters voted for was to tie together the big metropolitan areas and the major transportation hubs of Florida. As you add stops it slows down the bullet train and takes longer to get to where it is supposed to. Having three stops (Airport, International Drive and WDW) does not make sense. Even if they added a stop there, people will still have to get off the bullet train and take a bus to Sea World or Universal or any of the other tourist attractions. Here is the scenario. I am staying at a Disney hotel. I take a Disney bus to the Bullet train. Then the Bullet Train to International Drive. Then a bus to Sea World or Universal. Taking a bus from the hotel has to be faster. I have never thought of either Sea World or Universal as being out of reach when I stay at WDW or visa-versa. If someone from Miami is gonna take the bullet train to Orlando it won't matter to them where the stop is. As long as they get to the region faster and more comfortably than driving a car up the Florida turnpike.

The voters of Florida were well intentioned in their support of this idea. However, cost estimates have ballooned to billions and billions of dollars. The total economic and environmental impact was not known at the time of the vote. Now that these issues have been flushed out more it is not a bad idea to ask the voters if they still want it.

My opinion. We don't need it at the current costs.

 

[MissM]

As someone who lives in the Tampa Bay area and who loves heading to Orlando (generally and specifically for WDW to the tune of once every other weekend or so all this past year), I only wish they'd get the darned thing going. There is literally only one route to take to get from Tampa to Orlando - the hellish, overworked, under construction continuously for at least 15 years now, bogged down I-4. They spend 10 years at a time adding a 3rd lane to a 25 mile section of I-4 (and are currently working on another 35 miles worth all at once) - and it's not helping. It's not anywhere NEAR as fast enough expansion as the traffic drive demands. You'd be surprised how many people that live here in the Tampa Bay area never go to Orlando simply because the drive isn't worth it. Two, large, metropolitan, major cities a mere 90-odd miles appart and it might as well be the moon for as difficult as it is to get between them.

On a good day, I've made it in an hour and a half or so. A bad? Almost four hours. And you never know when you start out, which it will be. Sometimes, they shut down lanes (or all of a direction); sometimes there's accidents which close down the road; sometimes there's just so much congestion that you come to a crawl. Doing 2 miles an hour on an Interstate is a hell of a frustrating experience, let me tell you.

I'm for a bullet train connecting the two cities (as was like 80% of voters). I just know that even if they ever start building it, I'll need to wait oh, 13 years or so for it to be done. It's a slap in the face they've been stalling as long as they have to Florida residents who voted for this. Our construction delays are the stuff of national hilarity if you're stuck in the middle of it.
-m

 

[mkt]

I don't wanna imagine when it gets to the point that a $60 plane ticket would be a viable alternative to dealing with the 2-3 hours of gridlock I-4 has had lately

 

[SIR90210]

If DEBT believes that adding more roads will solve the traffic problem and not mass transportation, they need to take a look at the Washington, DC Metro Area, namrly Northern Virginia. The Metro (subway) and VRE (Virginia Rail) Lines are essentially useless, bypassing the major airport and major business areas plus malls! There was a referendum to grt the subway extended to all of these places three times. The first time they built a toll road (no one uses it), the second a six lane, NON-limited access highway, and they just shot it down again, on the theory that no one would ride it, while systems nation-wide use their downtown-airport lines at and above capacity, and the same can be said for Metro, while the roads are the second worst congested in the country behind LA! I say DEDEBT, DErail DErail the Bullet Train, even if it isn't really a bullet train!

 

[Jon_in_NC]

It just sounds like Universal and Sea World are a bunch of sore losers to me. Just because it doesn't benefit them they want to axe the whole project?! It sounds like something I'd expect from a 5 year old, not from adults. I echo the earlier post that suggested that they just use the money pooled for DEBT to create some sort of expansion from the train to their own tiny, pitiful insignificant theme parks.

Well then what does that make Disney for saying they would not allow a station on their property if it made stops at the Universal area? Now that sounds like something a sore loser 5 year old would say to me. Universal and Sea World have not tried to fight for a non-stop at Disney, they just want to be included on the train's route. I was under the impression that the train was supposed to be 'public transportation'. If you deny the public transportation to certain areas, that sounds discriminatory to me. Yes, it would be nice to take a train right over to Disney and not have to worry about driving or riding in a taxi, but I also like to go to those other "tiny, pitiful, insignificant theme parks" too, and denying train riders the opportunity to make a stop there is, I feel, underhanded.

Disney is being the big bully on this one. Come on guys, Eisner, whoever, you know you're the main draw in Orlando and most people go to you anyway. But saying you refuse a train station if it stops at competitors? That is not in the best interest of the people of Florida, the tourists, or business.

 

[TomDisney]

If I remember correctly, the reason why Disney is getting a stop and not Universal or SeaWorld is that Disney agreed to help fund the project as long as there were no stops for the train created near Universal, SeaWorld, or the convention center.

 

[MissM]

I don't wanna imagine when it gets to the point that a $60 plane ticket would be a viable alternative to dealing with the 2-3 hours of gridlock I-4 has had lately

You're not far off there. Ugh, it's a nightmare already. And it gets worse every year.
-m

 

[MouseRight]

That is true for almost any government project. The timeline, goals and funding should be explicitly set up prior to the vote. But, it's a catch 22. That type of planning requires a LOT of money and they can't really spend it without the ok of the voters. So, we have the typical gov project. A vote without specifics or specifics without a vote.

This may be too much info for some people, but... Just so those outside of Florida understand. The vote for the bullet train (high speed rail) was a vote for a constitutional amendment that required the state to build and fund it. The citizens of Florida, as do some other states, have the ability to amend the constitution by bypassing the legislature with these amendment votes. Over the last few years, the Florida constitution has been amended to lower class sizes in all schools, add pre-school education, and many obscure things (something about baby pig housing or something like that). These amendments, all noble and well intentioned cuases, are written by lobbying and public interest groups, and get on the ballot by obtaining thousands of signatures. The abundance of amendment votes in recent years has created a fiscal crisis - who is gonna pay for all of these projects, particularly since Florida does not have a state income tax. Partially due to the bullet train and the other high priced amendments, the rules have recently been changed to require that the vote be on a single clearly defined issue and that there be an economic impact of the amendment provided to the voters.

I personally think that the Florida constitution is too easily amended under these circumstances and like other states, and the Federal government, there should be a multi-layer process of several votes and double checks to see if the issues are fairly presented and voted on. The bullet train idea is an example of this.

 

[phlydude]

If DEBT believes that adding more roads will solve the traffic problem and not mass transportation, they need to take a look at the Washington, DC Metro Area, namrly Northern Virginia. The Metro (subway) and VRE (Virginia Rail) Lines are essentially useless, bypassing the major airport and major business areas plus malls! There was a referendum to grt the subway extended to all of these places three times. The first time they built a toll road (no one uses it), the second a six lane, NON-limited access highway, and they just shot it down again, on the theory that no one would ride it, while systems nation-wide use their downtown-airport lines at and above capacity, and the same can be said for Metro, while the roads are the second worst congested in the country behind LA! I say DEDEBT, DErail DErail the Bullet Train, even if it isn't really a bullet train!

Philadelphia's SEPTA rail line from the PHL airport to Central Philadelphia is so underused that there were talks of closing it down. Reason? For $5 more, you could take a taxi into town quicker than the train and to where you want to get dropped off. The train leaves once every half hour and takes you to a 1 of 3 central train stations in the heart of the city. If you want to transfer to another train, it's another fee. To the subway, $2.10. To a bus, $2.10. By the time you get home, it is $20 bucks later, and you had to carry all your bags on and off trains, up and down steps.
For me, $8 per day for Economy parking is the way to go!!

 

[netenyahoo]

Why not have one stop at Disney and at that one stop Disney allows the other parks to have busses to take people to their parks. Disney would get more traffic anyhow and everyone could be happy. It could be a big transportation hub for all of Orlando. With one stop for the train it would be a faster trip to Tampa too. It would also make it convienient to get to US and Seaworld from WDW - just go to the transportation hub on your Disney bus and then get on a US or Seaworld bus. I know Disney doesn't want competition, but they really don't have that great of a competetion anyhow. I don't think they would be hurt by my idea.

 

[phlydude]

Disney is giving up 50 acres to have a train station and train right of way on their property. They will not allow any transportation owned or affiliated with another theme park on their property, regardless if it is bus, train, monorail or whatever. Taxi's are different because they are not affiliated with a park.

IMHO, the train project needs to be delayed until Maglev trains can be incorporated into the design. The trains they want to use are similar to Amtrak's Acela trains which are dated already and barely any faster than the standard rail service. Amtrak is finally working on improving the track bed to increase speeds but they aren't really much faster aside from the ability to maintain the speed through a sharp curve by tilting.
Maglev are lower maintenance and potentially twice as fast as the designs that they are proposing. The ride is smoother because they levitate over the rails rather than ride them which cause less friction and less operating costs.

If Sea World, the OCCC and Universal want a train line, let them foot the bill for a light rail line from the airport up I-drive (they could use the median before Sand Lake and the Spur rd (Universal Blvd?) that was just recently completed and widened to the OCCC.

 

[netenyahoo]

That would work too to have a seperate system like light rail for US, Seaworld and the Convention center. Any way it happens I think it is smart to have only one stop for a high speed train and that one stop would serve the public best by being at WDW to get tourist to where they need to go and not on the streets.

 

[phlydude]

I truly think something needs to be done with I-drive but a bullet or Maglev train will not work. Light rail can run in the middle of the road and only have to cross the North-bound lanes of I-drive when it heads towards Universal off that spur road (unless it's elevated of course - but those who live in a big city where there's an El-train know what happens to the areas under the trestles)

 

[corran horn]

Even though I don't live in FL, I wanted to add my 2 cents. I see the "DEBT" group as a way to kill a project that could benefit all of central FL. It doesn't make sense to me and I'm sure we don't have all the facts.

Well, it'll benefit people who want to go from the Airport to Disney or to Tampa. People that have to pay for it but aren't going to really use it won't see the benefit of it. Remember the makeup of a large chunk of the people who actually vote down here. Grandpa and Grandma don't really like paying for such things.

Sure, it'll clear some traffic off of the highways and stuff, but things like that have a habit of growing to fit the opportunity. How many people will take I-4 (that don't now) because they believe traffic will be lighter with a train taking away some of the traffic?

Considering the thing's going to blow right by my house (off the greenway) I'm not sure about my wishes for this project.

 

[wannab@dis]

This may be too much info for some people, but... Just so those outside of Florida understand. The vote for the bullet train (high speed rail) was a vote for a constitutional amendment that required the state to build and fund it. The citizens of Florida, as do some other states, have the ability to amend the constitution by bypassing the legislature ... snip

Thanks for the information. That is really messed up. Talk about creating chaos on top of chaos. That is no way to start or plan any project and state funded projects should never be instigated by special interests.

I think the high speed rail would be great for FL, but only if they phase it in with local interests driving the needs. Just think, Orlando / Daytona / Tampa are close enough to connect and large enough to drive usage. I would think that commuting would be a nice percentage of usage.

 

[peter11435]

Disney wants a quick way for guests to get from MCO to Disney and back. They have already said if it travels to I-drive Sea World or Universal they will not support the train. If Disney doesn't support the train the whole project is pointless. Disney is never going to allow other parks to transport guests off their property. Nor are they going to support a spur line to those other "destinations." My guess is that nothing will ever get built unless the other parks back off. I don't think that Disney will.

 

[OnWithTheShow]

Finally some modernization of the American rail system, and some disgruntled competitors are trying to quash it. :hurl: