Politics Theme Park Reopening Guidelines to be released 10/20/20

This thread contains political discussion related to the original thread topic

MisterPenguin

President of Animal Kingdom
Premium Member
Can anyone remind me why theme parks need to be closed if the death rate for COVID 19 is almost the same as the flu?

Or is that not true?

Considering that there's 225K dead from COVID since March, I would contend that COVID rather obviously does not have the same death rate as the flu, no matter how much the anti-maskers, the open-nowers, the politicizers, the science-deniers would try to make it seem so by slicing the data to make COVID and flu seem the same.
 

Stevek

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
I can understand that it may be more transmissible and possibly have more severe long term consequences but how much deadlier is it? Considering the questionable way they have been counting COVID deaths and how flu deaths don’t have to be reported in the US? So to get a bit more specific, is it being perhaps slightly deadlier worth the negative economic impact? And the long term impact of kids not being in school? And me going crazy not only because I’m bored but because I’m truly never off as I’m either working long days or playing teacher at home with a newborn and a son we re homeschooling?


2017-2018 Flu 45 million cases, 61,000 deaths
2018-2019 Flu 35 million cases, 34,157 deaths
COVID-19 8.5million cases, 230,000 deaths (I updated this to latest reported numbers)

Ultimately, up to the individual if they believe these numbers.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
I can understand that it may be more transmissible and possibly have more severe long term consequences but how much deadlier is it? Considering the questionable way they have been counting COVID deaths and how flu deaths don’t have to be reported in the US? So to get a bit more specific, is it being perhaps slightly deadlier worth the negative economic impact? And the long term impact of kids not being in school? And me going crazy not only because I’m bored but because I’m truly never off as I’m either working long days or playing teacher at home with a newborn and a son we re homeschooling?
Flu deaths are reported no differently. There is nothing special or different about how COVID-19 is determined or reported. It’s the same system and processes that have already existed for years.

COVID-19 is the third leading cause of death in the US behind only heart disease and cancer, both of which are groups of various diseases of various causes that are only rarely infectious. This is not slightly worse than the flu. It is nearly five times more than a very, very bad year for flu deaths.

Shutting down schools is not something new. High flu cases could get a school closed. Cases of meningitis will close schools. Polio outbreaks used to close schools for weeks and there was no alternative of virtual schooling.

Like mental health, the loudest school concerns are a crock. They’re an excuse from people who generally would have dismissed the concern before the pandemic. American schools have been sliding for years and the pandemic has shown a light on the lack of developing scientific literacy as well as some basic knowledge of medicine/virology and history.
 
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mickEblu

Well-Known Member
A factor of 5-10 times is a good intuitive guess.



I don't know of any reputable evidence of systematic issues in the counting of Covid deaths.


I would have to look into how flu deaths are reported and estimated more closely to comment on the specific issue, but we have both primary estimates (case fatality rates) that depend on testing and reporting, as well as secondary ways of estimating the death toll due to each cause (for example, excess death counts, SEIR modeling). Those estimates are consistent with one another.


One of the basic issues that has been lost in this debate is that we do not choose whether there are consequences. When we talk about something like Covid-19, we know that the case fatality rate is as high as ~5%. When you combine that with an R0 of ~2, we are talking about millions of deaths (rather than hundreds of thousands). Losing millions of lives has severe and incalculable economic impacts before accounting for the human suffering.

The question is not whether the costs of preventing spread are worth the loss of life, the question is how do we minimize the combined loss of life, economic and social impacts. We need to consider all of the dimensions of the problem, and most of our discussions are phrasing things as either/or dilemmas, without acknowledging that we would be an economic recession and facing severe social consequences no matter what public health officials had done. There is a wide body of evidence that countries which responded effectively to the pandemic (early universal mask wearing, delayed reopening) have done better on economic and social measures than countries that didn't. So the evidence seems to indicate that the answer to "So to get a bit more specific, is it being perhaps slightly deadlier worth the negative economic impact?" is yes, it is worth the economic consequences to mitigate the pandemic.

We need to stop acting like we have an either/or dilemma before us. We need to respond to the pandemic and mitigate the social and economic consequences through stimulus and support for people like teachers and families with children.


I agree it’s not either/ or. I’m not sure I agree with everything (including the way the cases are being documented) but I appreciate the response.
 
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GimpYancIent

Well-Known Member
They work in china... then again they weld doors shut and you might not be seen again if you leave your house. The only way to do it properly is make people stay in their homes... impossible, impractical and prob illegal in the US
What you describe is recorded to have happened. Sad. If there truly was an international court the Chinese government, in its entirety, would be prosecuted for crimes against humanity. I truly hope Americans never drift in the direction of that sort of thinking.
 

DrAlice

Well-Known Member
We need to stop acting like we have an either/or dilemma before us. We need to respond to the pandemic and mitigate the social and economic consequences through stimulus and support for people like teachers and families with children.
This. This. This.

I'd add to your last sentence: and multi-generational households with grandparents.
 

MisterPenguin

President of Animal Kingdom
Premium Member
Let me take a stab at it because the underlying documentation is truly dense and their spreadsheet only shows values and no formulas:

A) Take the Positivity Rate and the number of COVID Cases per 100,000 people from two weeks ago.
  • stats from from two weeks ago because of delays of reporting... the past week's numbers are constantly changing and are usually under-reported
  • this applies to a city or county... which I'll call a 'district' from here on out.

So, let's walk through the situation of these three districts whose numbers this week are...

District (County/City)Positivity %Cases per 100,00
Los Angeles3.4 "orange"10.1 "purple"
Orange3.2 "orange"4.6 "red"
San Francisco0.8 "yellow"2.5 "orange"


B) Now, apply a modifier to the Cases/100k People (last column). Here's how...

This modifier depends on total number of tests that the district administers per 100k people.​
- Don't get this number confused with Cases/100k people, which is the absolute number of those who've tested positive. We're talking instead about the total number of tests administered whether positive or negative.​
The number of tests is a "median" (i.e., an "average") of the previous week. So, going back two weeks, you average out the number of tests per day administered that week and divide by 100k people. This is the district's "median testing" stat.​
You take the district's median number of tests/100k and compare it to California State's median number of tests/100k.​
If your district has been doing more testing than the state median, then your "Cases of COVID per 100,000" number can get adjusted down.​
An adjustment reduction is given for having a district median anywhere up to two times the state median of testing. Within that range, the higher your testing, the more your Cases per 100k gets reduced to a maximum of 60% of the unadjusted figure.​
So, let's look at the current stats: The California state median of testing for COVID is about 240 tests per 100,000 people for the whole state over the prior week.​
  • Los Angeles has a testing rate per 100k of 386 which reduces its Cases/100k [which is 10.1] to 75% of its unadjusted value [which becomes 7.6].
  • San Francisco has a testing rate of 596 and its Cases/100k [which is 2.5] is adjusted down to 60% of its value [which becomes 1.5]
  • Orange has a testing rate of 218. Uh oh... that's *less* than the median. That could mean its testing rate [of 4.6] can be adjusted *up*!!
    • However, if a district has a Positivity Rate that is under 3.5% [Orange County's positivity is 3.2%], then it gets off on good behavior and it doesn't get its Cases/100k inflated. And thus, no adjustment to Orange's Cases [stays at 4.6].​

The new standings after adjustments:

CountyPositivity %Cases per 100,00
Los Angeles3.4 "orange"7.6 "purple"
Orange3.2 "orange"4.6 "red"
San Francisco0.8 "yellow"1.5 "orange"


C) Next comes the "Equity Adjustment."

The state doesn't want counties to avoid providing testing and caring for its poorest or disenfranchised members. And so, there is a really complicated way to determine what parts of the district are in the 'lowest quartile' (lowest 25% bracket) and to make sure these two things happen:​
  1. The most depressed parts of the district have Positivity Rates that are close to that of the rest of the county.
  2. The most depressed parts of the district have targeted health care plans.
In order to progress to a better tier the difference between the the lowest quartile and the rest of the district needs to be minimized.​
So, not caring for the lowest quartile can hold you back, however, caring for the lowest quartile can have rewards!! For even though your district's case rate (per 100k) may not qualify for the next lower tier, if both the district as a whole, and it's lowest quartile's *positivity* qualify for the next tier then the district can move into the next tier.​
And this kinda makes sense because if you let the virus run rampant in depressed areas (where all your minimum wage employees live), it won't just stay there when they go to work in the wealthier part of the district.​



Conclusion: And that's why San Francisco is in the Yellow Tier even though their Cases/100k is still in Orange. That's because both the whole district's Positivity and their lowest quartile's Positivity are in Yellow (plus all the work they did to show they have targeted health care plans for the lowest quartile).

CountyPositivity %Equity Positivity %Cases per 100,00
Los Angeles3.4 "orange"5.9 "red"7.6 "purple"
Orange3.2 "orange"5.6 "red"4.6 "red"
San Francisco0.8 "yellow" ✅1.5 "yellow" ✅1.5 "orange"

So... Orange County went backwards...

 

Stevek

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
So... Orange County went backwards...

They're not getting to yellow anytime soon so it really doesn't matter anymore. We all just need to resign ourselves that it's unlikely Disney opens up until there is a vaccine...which is now estimated to be in wide distribution by April.
 

Disney Irish

Premium Member
So... Orange County went backwards...


The question is can they recover quick enough for this to be a minor blip.

One piece of data that should be pointed out that isn't being reported, OC this week finally came up to the state testing levels. So maybe its a step in the right direction.
 

Disney Irish

Premium Member
They're not getting to yellow anytime soon so it really doesn't matter anymore. We all just need to resign ourselves that it's unlikely Disney opens up until there is a vaccine...which is now estimated to be in wide distribution by April.
I still think its possible for OC to get to Yellow. But it does mean that they really need to get public buy-in on it, and quick. Things that have been discussed here such as incentives might be the only way to do it.
 

Stevek

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
I still think its possible for OC to get to Yellow. But it does mean that they really need to get public buy-in on it, and quick. Things that have been discussed here such as incentives might be the only way to do it.
Just feels like a next to impossible task...one that could even be more challenging post election.
 

DCBaker

Premium Member
"Disneyland plans to install more than 23,000 coronavirus health and safety measures to prepare for the eventual reopening of the Anaheim theme park resort now that California has issued guidelines for the state’s major tourist destinations to return to full operation.

Disney will roll out thousands of COVID-19 sanitization stations, protective barriers and warning signs by the time Disneyland, Disney California Adventure and Disney’s three Anaheim hotels fully reopen alongside Downtown Disney."

 

Stevek

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
This country used to thrive on beating impossible tasks, now we seem to cower and just complain.

Anyways, it'll be interesting to see what happens over the next week or two.

And yes, 6 days and counting.
I think had we done this better at the beginning, the task would have been easier to take on. Now it just feels like more and more people are willing to live with the risk. I mean, our president says it's nothing to worry about so why should they? :banghead:
 

Stevek

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
"Disneyland plans to install more than 23,000 coronavirus health and safety measures to prepare for the eventual reopening of the Anaheim theme park resort now that California has issued guidelines for the state’s major tourist destinations to return to full operation.

Disney will roll out thousands of COVID-19 sanitization stations, protective barriers and warning signs by the time Disneyland, Disney California Adventure and Disney’s three Anaheim hotels fully reopen alongside Downtown Disney."

When they open up Trader Sam's, I will drink enough rum drinks to sanitize my insides.
 

fctiger

Well-Known Member
Sadly seeing what is happening in the country and that the virus has become basically more serious than ever again and cases going up quickly, sadly I think California made the right call not to reopen any of the theme parks. Last week I was against the decision but what a difference a week makes. Fact is pretty much all the states are rising in cases including California. It looks like the second wave is here and it looks brutal. Again we need a federal plan to try and contain it on some real level and not 50 different plans. That is clearly not working.

But yes as much as it pains me, it look like its a good call to keep the parks closed. And lets not kid ourselves, yeah yellow tier does look almost impossible at this point, but so does the orange tier. And sadly once you open something like Disneyland up and people start moving around again in a big way to attend these parks, you probably are going to have spikes in cases again. I'm not saying from the parks themselves, but from outside could create more cases and could easily throw those counties back in higher tiers given what we are currently seeing across the country.

There are no easy solutions. We all want these parks back, especially Disneyland open again, but I care more about the safety of the people in general.
 
D

Deleted member 107043

So... Orange County went backwards...

pretends-to-be-shocked-gif-8.gif
 

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