Theme park group says state guidelines ‘sentence’ laid off and furloughed workers to ‘poverty’ - OCR/SCNG

[MoonRakerSCM]

Chef Mickey, do you have any light to see on the recent "adjusted" vs "unadjusted" ICU bed availability?

 

[unmitigated disaster]

Did I deny anywhere that the vaccine is a good idea? No. I am, I am sure, way down the list for one, but I'd get it tomorrow.

You can stop lecturing about lost jobs and wages; hard as it is to believe people other than Disney employees have been laid off. I am lucky; I was not but only because management has zero interest in my shift. My entire hotel is skeleton crew. My brother's been job hunting since March.

 

[el_super]

I guess you missed the part of the flu being around longer and killing 40,000/yr? What's worse, 40,000 deaths per year forever or 300,000 one year and then it's gone?

If your hospitals don't have the capacity to handle the 300,000, but do have the capacity to handle 40,000 a year, the 300,000 would be (and is) worse.

Life is a #%#% sandwich sometimes and you people have to understand it's going to always be the greatest good for the greatest number.

I agree. But what you have to understand is that keeping people alive does more service to the economy than letting people needlessly die.

As has been pointed out many times, in a state like Florida where there are no lockdowns, the economy is still ruined AND they have twice the deaths.

I will also point out that those 300,000 you seem to think of as an acceptable lost, are the current fatalities WITH restrictions in place. Without them, we could be looking at millions dead. What would that do to the economy?

This vaccine, along with precautions and care is the way out. More shutting down is silly.

So what would you do to decrease the volume of people needing medical attention and ICU beds in the time between now and the vaccine is available?

 

[truecoat]

I guess you missed the part of the flu being around longer and killing 40,000/yr? What's worse, 40,000 deaths per year forever or 300,000 one year and then it's gone? Again, NOT saying Covid is permanently going away, but the flu has been consistent killer and we let it happen like it's just "part of life." The flu killed even more people before the vaccine too.

Killing the elderly is a hugely important data point for the way you would handle this. Locking down the nation is a silly solution that hasn't worked anyway. Also, let's talk about the humanitarian issues with locking people in their homes, denying them the ability to, you know, live, work, and pursue happiness?

Again, there are MASSIVE costs to shutting anything down. Look at just Disneyland to stay on topic. What are those people supposed to do?

Life is a #%#% sandwich sometimes and you people have to understand it's going to always be the greatest good for the greatest number. It is in the interest of WAY more people to allow the economy to function and take precautions versus just shutting things down. By the way, shutdowns will never work because you will NEVER get your "ideal" shutdown scenario and the virus will immediately start spreading again post shutdown.

This vaccine, along with precautions and care is the way out. More shutting down is silly.

It’s not the way out if people don’t take the vaccine. The misinformation has taken hold and many, many more will pay for it. And the survivors with damaged lungs, hearts and other organs.

 

[Chef Mickey]

If your hospitals don't have the capacity to handle the 300,000, but do have the capacity to handle 40,000 a year, the 300,000 would be (and is) worse.




I agree. But what you have to understand is that keeping people alive does more service to the economy than letting people needlessly die.

As has been pointed out many times, in a state like Florida where there are no lockdowns, the economy is still ruined AND they have twice the deaths.

I will also point out that those 300,000 you seem to think of as an acceptable lost, are the current fatalities WITH restrictions in place. Without them, we could be looking at millions dead. What would that do to the economy?



So what would you do to decrease the volume of people needing medical attention and ICU beds in the time between now and the vaccine is available?

Last 7 days...Florida has 44 cases per 100,000. California has 72 cases per 100,000. Texas is even less than Florida. Death rates are almost the same The last 7 days. Why? Since the beginning, Florida, Texas and California are in the 55-75 deaths per 100,000. New York City is at 291. The numbers are sometimes Worse with more restrictions.

That is a ridiculous take...people aren’t dying in the streets. Largely very elderly folks are dying in hospitals along with 3 other conditions.

The economy in Florida IS recovering, because it is open. I mean, is this a joke? WDW is one example of people working every day. Not so much in California. And the California Covid numbers are TRASH. They are doing NO better and worse compared to many open states.

The 40,000 people dying every year from the flu forever is a serious virus because it’s every year. Covid is a new virus. As we learn more, it becomes less new and less dangerous in all likelihood. We have a chance to completely vaccinate it away, which would mean it runs its course and the flu is still here, killing people. How would Covid be a bigger deal if it’s totally gone in 12 months?

What do you mean acceptable? Life isn’t so black and white. It’s unacceptable to tell people they have no liberty and can’t work. I am not against restrictions that make sense for everyone. Your argument that more lockdowns somehow not only saves a lot of the 300,000 (doubtful) and has no other impacts is laughable.

California has no appreciably better statewide numbers than anyone else and also has some of the most onerous restrictions. It’s not working for them and they are hurting people’s livelihood.

And this may hurt your feelings, but 60% of the people dying have literally lived their entire life expectancy. Before everyone goes crazy, I’m only speaking from the economics side here because it was mentioned in the above. Those elderly 75+ year old lives don’t have some huge positive economic impact. Young, healthy people dying would be of much greater concern to the economy, so you’re completely wrong from that perspective. It doesn’t mean their lives aren’t valuable or they deserve to die, but they are statistically going to die from something because they have lived literally their entire lives.

For the people that need hospital care, you MANAGE it, like most hospitals are doing today, successfully. Nationwide Lockdowns should not be completely driven by a few struggling hospitals.

 

[Chef Mickey]

It’s not the way out if people don’t take the vaccine. The misinformation has taken hold and many, many more will pay for it. And the survivors with damaged lungs, hearts and other organs.

Yeah, for you, it’s never over. When everyone is vaccinated, you’ll say people have permanent damage with no evidence that’s is anywhere near widespread. We get a vaccine, it’s not good enough, it’s not easy enough, it’s not available enough, it’s not fast enough, it’s not taken enough, and there are always reasons for panic and cynicism.

People may not want to take it on an every person basis, but it helps. It takes worst case scenarios off the table. The facts are, healthy people and people under 65 have almost zero risk. That is a fact. We are moving on with precautions because there is no choice. The process of total vaccines takes WAY too long for more onerous restriction.

We are FAR ahead of the game and the vaccine is a game changer.

You make my point even stronger when you have this pessimistic view that we still have a long way to go. Lockdowns won’t change that, so there is literally no choice but to move on and just do the best we can. Disneyland will be closed for 2 more years or maybe forever if people like you were in charge. Thankfully, they aren’t in charge in most places, but sadly it is so in California.

 

[MoonRakerSCM]

I've noticed upon a quick look at a few areas across the country (since I'll be travelling in the coming weeks I've been snooping) and it seems that many other states and areas have peaked in this wave already while California is still soaring... only difference I can see is the much firmer lockdowns in CA. Only explanation I can think of since no one has actually been looking into what's causing this spike (other than stupidly blaming "Karens" at an OC Starbucks) is CA's harsh lockdowns have caused people to not care anymore due to stress.

 

[Chef Mickey]

I've noticed upon a quick look at a few areas across the country (since I'll be travelling in the coming weeks I've been snooping) and it seems that many other states and areas have peaked in this wave already while California is still soaring... only difference I can see is the much firmer lockdowns in CA. Only explanation I can think of since no one has actually been looking into what's causing this spike (other than stupidly blaming "Karens" at an OC Starbucks) is CA's harsh lockdowns have caused people to not care anymore due to stress.

I think a lot of spread is simply within family and friends. Long term exposure by hanging out at houses and apartments. When there are lockdowns, you do a lot more hanging out at someone’s house bc it’s boring.

 

[Chef Mickey]

Dude, he's on tape saying his plan was to downplay the virus. The people involved with policy discussions have admitted he hasn't attended task force meetings in a few months.

You don't have to carry water for Trump, it's pretty evident how badly he screwed up the response.

Avoiding panic is not a completely bad strategy. The media took care of the panic.

You’re all silly if you think anyone knew what they were doing, particularly in the beginning. Fauci literally said it wasn’t a threat, said masks don’t help, and the surgeon general said the same thing.

Let’s also not act like one person could prevent this, but Trump played the game in many important ways. He banned travel EARLY and was criticized, heavily. Called xenophobic. He went along with the lockdown. He got industry together to help test and handle the storm. He pushed for a vaccine. He secured doses. Could he have done better? Maybe, but would it have mattered? Would anyone be able to force mask wearing, social distancing, or banning gatherings?

Did he do everything right? No, but no one did. America is a different place with different people, geography, media, reporting transparency, government and population densities. Careful comparing countries. We do know many countries are struggling. Are they all idiots led by idiots? Whatever.

In the end, the vaccine is here from Pfizer, an American company, with many other American companies coming in with their version. Trump should get some credit for that if he gets blame for the other.

Biden‘s “amazing“ Covid plan for which largely got him elected is literally nothing new and a total joke. Biden doesn’t even know what office he ran for...let’s be serious. He practically didn’t even campaign and was elected on a “I’m not Trump” basis with no plan. He’s a fool just like the rest of them and throw in Trump that mix too. Politicians don’t save us from anything.

No one can handle this, but the speed we got a vaccine is truly remarkable and should be celebrated.

 

[MoonRakerSCM]

Good ole pelosi walking down the street in Chinatown, hugging people and telling them come to Chinatown... because trump was racist for stopping travel. What a tool.

 

[Darkbeer1]

 

[truecoat]

Avoiding panic is not a completely bad strategy. The media took care of the panic.

You’re all silly if you think anyone knew what they were doing, particularly in the beginning. Fauci literally said it wasn’t a threat, said masks don’t help, and the surgeon general said the same thing.

Let’s also not act like one person could prevent this, but Trump played the game in many important ways. He banned travel EARLY and was criticized, heavily. Called xenophobic. He went along with the lockdown. He got industry together to help test and handle the storm. He pushed for a vaccine. He secured doses. Could he have done better? Maybe, but would it have mattered? Would anyone be able to force mask wearing, social distancing, or banning gatherings?

Did he do everything right? No, but no one did. America is a different place with different people, geography, media, reporting transparency, government and population densities. Careful comparing countries. We do know many countries are struggling. Are they all idiots led by idiots? Whatever.

In the end, the vaccine is here from Pfizer, an American company, with many other American companies coming in with their version. Trump should get some credit for that if he gets blame for the other.

Biden‘s “amazing“ Covid plan for which largely got him elected is literally nothing new and a total joke. Biden doesn’t even know what office he ran for...let’s be serious. He practically didn’t even campaign and was elected on a “I’m not Trump” basis with no plan. He’s a fool just like the rest of them and throw in Trump that mix too. Politicians don’t save us from anything.

No one can handle this, but the speed we got a vaccine is truly remarkable and should be celebrated.

Our “president” is exactly the reason its so bad . Kept saying it’s part of a hoax, it’ll go away, what, 4 or 5 different times this year? We won’t hear about it after the election last I heard. He never took it serious, downplayed wearing masks and put people at risk by having large gatherings. He is a failure in leadership.

 

[George Lucas on a Bench]

And yet, Operation Engage is the reason America has a vaccine first and has once again saved the rest of the world. I suppose the entire world should begin thanking The Donald.

 

[Chef Mickey]

Our “president” is exactly the reason its so bad . Kept saying it’s part of a hoax, it’ll go away, what, 4 or 5 different times this year? We won’t hear about it after the election last I heard. He never took it serious, downplayed wearing masks and put people at risk by having large gatherings. He is a failure in leadership.

It will go away after the vaccine he helped bring in record time.

Again, we had enough panic from everyone else.

It's funny to me you blame a single man as "the reason it's so bad." LOL! Delusional to a very complex problem, but you got your new President who is simply clueless and would let anyone in a lab coat tell him how to handle a country. This will be solved because of the efforts in 2020, like it or not.

You got your pure politician, who will likely do nothing but be a politician (AKA nothing). You saw Biden's closely guarded Covid plan? Glad he "unveiled" it as if it has a shred of anything new in it.

 

[Californian Elitist]

Our “president” is exactly the reason its so bad . Kept saying it’s part of a hoax, it’ll go away, what, 4 or 5 different times this year? We won’t hear about it after the election last I heard. He never took it serious, downplayed wearing masks and put people at risk by having large gatherings. He is a failure in leadership.

That part.

The Trump administration is not the only one to blame here though. Plenty of American citizens are to blame as well, specifically the "But my freedom!" ones.

 

[October82]

It will go away after the vaccine he helped bring in record time.

Again, we had enough panic from everyone else.

Because of the contentious way in which things like this are liable to be politicized, it's important to understand that the federal government had very little to do with the development of the vaccines themselves. Of the three leading vaccines, only one was developed by an American company (the Moderna vaccine), while the other two (Oxford/Astrozeneca and Pfizer/BioNTech) were developed primarily in the UK/EU. Interestingly, the Pfizer vaccine is the product of a German company and developed by Turkish immigrants.

What "Operation Warp Speed" primarily does is not accelerate the development of vaccines, but prepare the infrastructure for their manufacturing and streamline the approval process. It allows companies to begin manufacturing without knowing if their vaccine will ultimately be safe and effective. That's important, but it's also something that every developed country recognized and supported with a similar effort. The US is not unique in how it approached developing a vaccine.

No one will disagree with you that the Trump administration handled (at least) the early parts of this effort responsibly. But the people who made this happen are international groups of doctors and researchers who were working on these technologies before the coronavirus even existed. Let's not detract from their achievement by politicizing it.

It's funny to me you blame a single man as "the reason it's so bad." LOL! Delusional to a very complex problem, but you got your new President who is simply clueless and would let anyone in a lab coat tell him how to handle a country.

The people who developed the vaccine wear lab coats. The people who streamlined the regulatory process wear lab coats. The people who started the vaccine manufacturing and distribution wear lab coats. The people who solve very complex problems wear lab coats. I'm not certain why you want someone other than those wearing lab coats to be responsible for figuring out how to do science and save lives. They're generally the people that I look for first. The demonization of scientists and doctors for cheap political ends needs to stop.

 

[Chef Mickey]

Because of the contentious way in which things like this are liable to be politicized, it's important to understand that the federal government had very little to do with the development of the vaccines themselves. Of the three leading vaccines, only one was developed by an American company (the Moderna vaccine), while the other two (Oxford/Astrozeneca and Pfizer/BioNTech) were developed primarily in the UK/EU. Interestingly, the Pfizer vaccine is the product of a German company and developed by Turkish immigrants.

What "Operation Warp Speed" primarily does is not accelerate the development of vaccines, but prepare the infrastructure for their manufacturing and streamline the approval process. It allows companies to begin manufacturing without knowing if their vaccine will ultimately be safe and effective. That's important, but it's also something that every developed country recognized and supported with a similar effort. The US is not unique in how it approached developing a vaccine.

No one will disagree with you that the Trump administration handled (at least) the early parts of this effort responsibly. But the people who made this happen are international groups of doctors and researchers who were working on these technologies before the coronavirus even existed. Let's not detract from their achievement by politicizing it.



The people who developed the vaccine wear lab coats. The people who streamlined the regulatory process wear lab coats. The people who started the vaccine manufacturing and distribution wear lab coats. The people who solve very complex problems wear lab coats. I'm not certain why you want someone other than those wearing lab coats to be responsible for figuring out how to do science and save lives. They're generally the people that I look for first. The demonization of scientists and doctors for cheap political ends needs to stop.

I think everyone realizes the federal government doesn’t do much of anything. They can and should create the environment to allow things to get done by people who actually know what they are doing. That’s capitalism. Trump and the admin get some credit for creating that environment if for no other reason than they were in charge. They also rightfully get SOME blame, but not to the extent we’ve seen.

My only point in bringing up credit for the administration was you have to be objective when you’re blaming them for everything else.

I detailed in a separate post that one man isn’t responsible for all good or all bad, but Trump has literally been blamed by many for every Covid death. The venom and hatred maybe 50% of Americans have for a single man is destructive.

The comment about lab coats emphasizes that those people are merely advisors to elected officials. They haven’t been elected by anyone to make decisions and elected officials have to make decisions based on MANY factors, several of which have nothing to do with science.

Any good doctor wants to save lives. They have an oath to “do no harm,” but the President and our elected officials have to live in reality and make decisions that are harder than “save every life possible.”

If we ran the world based on saving every single life, we wouldn’t fly planes, drive cars, or do much of anything. Policy has to be the greatest good for the greatest number. This means saving every life is not a real solution to a more complex problem, ignoring that we actually don’t know how to save every life in this situation.

All American companies have worldwide influence. Anyone who helped Pfizer in the process gets full credit.

 

[el_super]

And yet, Operation Engage is the reason America has a vaccine first

Didn't the UK get the vaccine first?

 

[unmitigated disaster]

I think everyone realizes the federal government doesn’t do much of anything. They can and should create the environment to allow things to get done by people who actually know what they are doing. That’s capitalism. Trump and the admin get some credit for creating that environment if for no other reason than they were in charge. They also rightfully get SOME blame, but not to the extent we’ve seen.

My only point in bringing up credit for the administration was you have to be objective when you’re blaming them for everything else.

I detailed in a separate post that one man isn’t responsible for all good or all bad, but Trump has literally been blamed by many for every Covid death. The venom and hatred maybe 50% of Americans have for a single man is destructive.

The comment about lab coats emphasizes that those people are merely advisors to elected officials. They haven’t been elected by anyone to make decisions and elected officials have to make decisions based on MANY factors, several of which have nothing to do with science.

Any good doctor wants to save lives. They have an oath to “do no harm,” but the President and our elected officials have to live in reality and make decisions that are harder than “save every life possible.”

If we ran the world based on saving every single life, we wouldn’t fly planes, drive cars, or do much of anything. Policy has to be the greatest good for the greatest number. This means saving every life is not a real solution to a more complex problem, ignoring that we actually don’t know how to save every life in this situation.

All American companies have worldwide influence. Anyone who helped Pfizer in the process gets full credit.

Our President did not run his virus response on anything but "I don't care if you all die as long as I, and maybe Ivanka, survive". I mean, that's his entire life philosophy.

 

[drizgirl]

Our President did not run his virus response on anything but "I don't care if you all die as long as I, and maybe Ivanka, survive". I mean, that's his entire life philosophy.

Take a deep breath. You’re losing all credibility.