Theme park group says state guidelines ‘sentence’ laid off and furloughed workers to ‘poverty’ - OCR/SCNG

October82

Well-Known Member
I think everyone realizes the federal government doesn’t do much of anything. They can and should create the environment to allow things to get done by people who actually know what they are doing. That’s capitalism. Trump and the admin get some credit for creating that environment if for no other reason than they were in charge. They also rightfully get SOME blame, but not to the extent we’ve seen.

There are two separate questions that are being conflated here. One of which is about policy to mitigate the harms of the virus, the other concerns manufacturing, distribution, and basic research. The Trump administration instituted policies that were in line with the rest of the world in terms of manufacturing and distribution. The basic research that led these vaccines to be developed had little to do with the Trump administration, and more to do with basic R&D over several decades. The policy failures (or successes) of the Trump administration to mitigate the spread of the virus are well known, and noting that they did some things right simply doesn't address those broader issues. They're just different topics.

*I should clarify my phrasing, I didn't mean to suggest that the federal government didn't do anything here. It was decades of basic R&D support and work by NIAID/BARDA that put us in a position to be able to develop a vaccine to a SARS or MERS like virus. The BioNTech and Moderna vaccines rely on new technologies are even bigger achievements of basic research. The current administration simply had little or nothing to do with any of this. The same is true of previous administrations and will be true of future ones.

If you want the US to lead on vaccine development, please ask your representatives to support funding for basic research. It's the overwhelming reason we have ended up with a successful vaccine.

The comment about lab coats emphasizes that those people are merely advisors to elected officials. They haven’t been elected by anyone to make decisions and elected officials have to make decisions based on MANY factors, several of which have nothing to do with science.

Any good doctor wants to save lives. They have an oath to “do no harm,” but the President and our elected officials have to live in reality and make decisions that are harder than “save every life possible.”

If we ran the world based on saving every single life, we wouldn’t fly planes, drive cars, or do much of anything. Policy has to be the greatest good for the greatest number. This means saving every life is not a real solution to a more complex problem, ignoring that we actually don’t know how to save every life in this situation.

I agree with you that policy is about more than the basic scientific facts. But science is not just biology, chemistry and physics. There are scientific answers to these policy questions, and I want the people who do that kind of science to be making the decisions. I'm not interested in a political debate, but the simple fact was that the Trump administration did not engage in a policy response to the Covid-19 pandemic that was in line with the consensus of the scientists whose job it is to answer questions like "how do we save the most lives with the least damage to the economy?" It's a problem when politics comes before science. When simple, popular, and convenient answers are substituted for the hard and unpopular ones.

All American companies have worldwide influence. Anyone who helped Pfizer in the process gets full credit.

The vaccine was developed by BioNTech, Pfizer is the manufacturing partner. BioNTech is a German company run by Turkish immigrants. BioNTech was funded by the EU and the German government while Pfizer only received late stage funds from the US government to support manufacturing. To be clear, none of this is meant to detract from the accomplishments or hard work that American scientists did here. There's plenty of credit to go around, even for the vaccines that have failed. The point here is to highlight that this is a global scientific achievement that we should all be celebrating, not one that should be turned into further political fodder.
 
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Darkbeer1

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Because of the contentious way in which things like this are liable to be politicized, it's important to understand that the federal government had very little to do with the development of the vaccines themselves. Of the three leading vaccines, only one was developed by an American company (the Moderna vaccine), while the other two (Oxford/Astrozeneca and Pfizer/BioNTech) were developed primarily in the UK/EU. Interestingly, the Pfizer vaccine is the product of a German company and developed by Turkish immigrants.

What "Operation Warp Speed" primarily does is not accelerate the development of vaccines, but prepare the infrastructure for their manufacturing and streamline the approval process. It allows companies to begin manufacturing without knowing if their vaccine will ultimately be safe and effective. That's important, but it's also something that every developed country recognized and supported with a similar effort. The US is not unique in how it approached developing a vaccine.

No one will disagree with you that the Trump administration handled (at least) the early parts of this effort responsibly. But the people who made this happen are international groups of doctors and researchers who were working on these technologies before the coronavirus even existed. Let's not detract from their achievement by politicizing it.



The people who developed the vaccine wear lab coats. The people who streamlined the regulatory process wear lab coats. The people who started the vaccine manufacturing and distribution wear lab coats. The people who solve very complex problems wear lab coats. I'm not certain why you want someone other than those wearing lab coats to be responsible for figuring out how to do science and save lives. They're generally the people that I look for first. The demonization of scientists and doctors for cheap political ends needs to stop.
Funny that TIME Magazine named Biden and Harris over all the folks that developed the vaccines.

They truly are the Persons of the Year!
 

MoonRakerSCM

Well-Known Member
A lot of TDS in this thread... some users on here unfortunately suffer from it... so much blind hatred... shows how easily people can be mislead to dangerous thinking based on false premise...

... as long as orange man bad though amirite?
 

truecoat

Well-Known Member
Let’s look over the chain of events...

Trump said it was totally under control in January and would go away in February.

He said it again in March as the virus surged, wanted the churches packed for Easter and pushed hydroxycloroquine.

Pushed the same drug in April, said we should shine light in our bodies or inject cleaners.

In May he refused to wear masks and discouraged the practice. Both him and Pence wouldn’t wear them while visiting hospitals and factories.
Claimed he was taking hydroxycloroquine to prevent the disease.
Was planning on dismantling the pandemic task force at this time.

June.
Insisted it was under control. Fought the FDA on revocation of the approval of hydroxycloroquine.
Denied a second surge was taking place.
Said we need to slow down testing to improve stats.
Said in the WSJ people were wearing masks to show that they don’t like him.

July
Claimed it was under control and was doing a great job.
Nuked a bunch of data formerly available on the CDC site.
Kept pushing hydroxycloroquine.
Withdrew from the WHO saying they were a puppet of China yet he praised China for their handling of the pandemic in January, February and March.

In August again claimed it was under control and would go away.
Finally encouraged mask use but ignored all guidelines at the Republican Convention.
When asked about the 150,000 dead, said it is what it is.

Sept
Said Covid-19 virtually hurt nobody and openly disputed the effectiveness of masks.

October, he gets Covid-19 and then exposes his staff by having them drive him around.
Goes back to the White House and takes off the mask.
White House concedes it can’t control it but also claims they ended the pandemic.
Trump says you won’t hear of it anymore after Nov 4th.

We all know what happened in Nov and Trump went into hiding. Doesn’t care about the 300,000 dead and thousands more every week, just phony election claims. We have the lamest duck in all lame ducks.
 

BrianLo

Well-Known Member
You know we have 11 full doses of vaccines procured per citizen up here and most of these deals were in place before the US?

I'm confused on what Americans are being told was actually done differently in terms of their vaccine procurement. They are on pretty equal footing with many other Western Nations. Which is not to say a poor job was done by any means, just not a unique performance.

America's truly greatest contribution to speed up delivery was as a Phase 3 trial site.


The conversation has mostly moved on, but Influenza today is not the same virus from 15 years ago. It changes gradually and occasionally significantly. COVID-19 thus far remains a single entity. So summing 40/k per year over time would actually be counting many different strains; whereas COVID-19 is nearly a 10-fold worse performer, despite having fairly unprecedented efforts to slow it down.
 

Californian Elitist

Well-Known Member
You know we have 11 full doses of vaccines procured per citizen up here and most of these deals were in place before the US?

I'm confused on what Americans are being told was actually done differently in terms of their vaccine procurement. They are on pretty equal footing with many other Western Nations. Which is not to say a poor job was done by any means, just not a unique performance.

America's truly greatest contribution to speed up delivery was as a Phase 3 trial site.


The conversation has mostly moved on, but Influenza today is not the same virus from 15 years ago. It changes gradually and occasionally significantly. COVID-19 thus far remains a single entity. So summing 40/k per year over time would actually be counting many different strains; whereas COVID-19 is nearly a 10-fold worse performer, despite having fairly unprecedented efforts to slow it down.

It's not uncommon for some Americans to believe that we were the first for many things. But you're right, there were multiple countries involved with the vaccine process, not just the United States.
 

October82

Well-Known Member
You know we have 11 full doses of vaccines procured per citizen up here and most of these deals were in place before the US?

I'm confused on what Americans are being told was actually done differently in terms of their vaccine procurement. They are on pretty equal footing with many other Western Nations. Which is not to say a poor job was done by any means, just not a unique performance.

Domestic politics.

America's truly greatest contribution to speed up delivery was as a Phase 3 trial site.


The conversation has mostly moved on, but Influenza today is not the same virus from 15 years ago. It changes gradually and occasionally significantly. COVID-19 thus far remains a single entity. So summing 40/k per year over time would actually be counting many different strains; whereas COVID-19 is nearly a 10-fold worse performer, despite having fairly unprecedented efforts to slow it down.

Ironically because the spread of the disease is so poorly controlled, doing phase 3 trials in the US allowed them to finish much quicker than in other nations that have handled the pandemic better.
 

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