The Spirited Sixth Sense ...

ford91exploder

Resident Curmudgeon
Eisner issues was not promoting Jeffrey Katzenberg and allowing Pixar to steal animation by using CGI where Disney refused to go. Both was caused by Eisner big ego. Frank Wells wasn't around to keep the egos in check. This all happened around 1995.

Iger know how to bring people together for a common cause. Steve Jobs health played a part with selling Pixar. I'm not sure what exactly brought George Lucas and Steve Jobs to Disney.
Was it the hate of Eisner or the smooth talking Iger that brought Pixar and Lucas to Disney?

I agree with those stating Iger biggest issue is he is not creative thus not playing attention to WDW.

With Lucas - If he did not sell when he did his take on the sale of Lucasfilm LTD would have been about 30% lower so it was all about the benjamins in his case. With Jobs I think he wanted to concentrate on running Apple because he was starting the runup to the iPad/iPhone and APPLE+PIXAR was too much even for him to run.
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
If it has quality then it will impress people regardless of whether it's a movie tie in or not. But there's already a lot to fear that the substance is going to be lacking. An already clearly massively value engineered version of the expansion is in effect, with the main E ticket coaster having been cut out per what insiders have stated here. So we're left with a Soarin-inspired simulator along with a (potentially drop-less) boat ride described as a "C ticket".

Of the two, the boat is the only one i'm really interested in at this point. Tired of simulators entirely, not an acceptable substitute (as a headliner attraction) in my book for a real ride travelling through a show building with actual physical sets and animatronics (don't care if they're labeling it as an E ticket). So the boat ride is the only real thing in this expansion i've even got my eye on. But it's extremely concerning that the imagineers have so little faith in it that internally they've classified it as merely a C ticket in quality. Little Mermaid after all was described as an "E ticket lite" during construction, and the Mine Train is only considered a D ticket internally. That doesn't give much hope that the boat ride will be better than an already disappointing New Fantasyland.

The only possible good news is the involvement of Rohde and Cameron, but there's only so much that can be done with a project if crippling budget mutilation ends up occurring (which is likely at this point due the failed money pit of nextgen). There also isn't anyone with real power involved with the creative process who will be willing to conduct political leverage in order to keep the bean counters from ruining things (like Lasseter was able to do with Cars Land when bean counters attempted to ruin that project). Like Fantasyland, I expect this to be a pretty new area to look at (again especially with who is overseeing the project), but I have my expectations for actual ride substance and quality set extremely low.

It is absolutely impossible to make the assumption that Pandora will be good at this point. We've only got a couple of models and concept art to go off and no substantial work has even started yet. We know too little to assume the best from this.

I am with you on the boat ride. I am looking more forward to it then the e-ticket. I'm hoping you are wrong about it being a C. There were those alleged leaked plans that called it a "C ticket", but I thought those may have been later exposed as not being real or accurate. I kinda got the feeling that maybe the "Soarin 2.0" and "C ticket boat ride" labels were rolled out by the anti-Avatar camp to belittle the project. Maybe that's just wishful thinking. If the budget is what it's rumored to be (close to double FLE) and the boat ride is cheap and lame what the heck are they spending the cash on?
 

Figments Friend

Well-Known Member
Agreed. If I recall correctly, they actually would occasionally run those animated shorts in a standalone form on the Disney Channel when I was little. It may have been alongside other Disney shorts in the compilation shows such as Donald Duck Presents, Quack Attack and Mickey's Mousetracks aired in the 90's.

You remember well, Merlin.

:)

Yes, those animated segments used to be aired.
They are all up on YouTube these days...and well worth watching.

Here is one to start ya off....
Remind you of a certain Attraction...?

 

ParentsOf4

Well-Known Member
If the purpose of that (other then just plain old increase in revenue) is to encourage people to stay onsite, they have to raise it a whole lot more before it isn't worth not paying the per night rate at a Disney Resort. I don't like it, but, it's not a deterrent for me yet. It's not even close yet! So... if you're listening Disney Exec's keep bringing it up until I can say... well, that's it for me. To connect it with Frozen...
I really should spend time at other places anyway.
As one political party likes to suggest frequently, lowering taxes raises revenue.

In 2004, the last full year of the all-inclusive Park Hopper tickets, Parks & Resorts annual revenue was $7.8B and operating income was $1.1B. In 2006, the first full year of the reformatted Magic Year Way tickets, annual revenue was $9.9B and operating income was $1.5B. P&R gross margin increased from 14.5% to 15.5%.

WDW made the theme parks more affordable by offering a less expensive theme park ticket option and revenue & profits went up!

Go figure.
 

ford91exploder

Resident Curmudgeon
Wouldn't the classic be Tarzan, John Carter isn't the classic. They should of taken the premise and bring it into a 21st Century feel. It looked way too goofy ... they should of killed it.

ERB had a Bunch of classics, Tarzan was one of the best known but ERB fueled a lot of imaginations one way or another, Although John Carter I don't think lends itself to a film adaptation, It's more of a epic tale in the tradition of Homer (the ancient greek not the denizen of springfield)
 

ford91exploder

Resident Curmudgeon
I am with you on the boat ride. I am looking more forward to it then the e-ticket. I'm hoping you are wrong about it being a C. There were those alleged leaked plans that called it a "C ticket", but I thought those may have been later exposed as not being real or accurate. I kinda got the feeling that maybe the "Soarin 2.0" and "C ticket boat ride" labels were rolled out by the anti-Avatar camp to belittle the project. Maybe that's just wishful thinking. If the budget is what it's rumored to be (close to double FLE) and the boat ride is cheap and lame what the heck are they spending the cash on?

Transfer Rubles comrade... Transfer Rubles - With WDI being the conduit to funnel cash from P&R to Burbank.
 

Andrew C

You know what's funny?
As one political party likes to suggest frequently, lowering taxes raises revenue.

In 2004, the last full year of the all-inclusive Park Hopper tickets, Parks & Resorts annual revenue was $7.8B and operating income was $1.1B. In 2006, the first full year of the reformatted Magic Year Way tickets, annual revenue was $9.9B and operating income was $1.5B. P&R gross margin increased from 14.5% to 15.5%.

WDW made the theme parks more affordable by offering a less expensive theme park ticket option and revenue and profits went up!

Go figure.

Do you consider the US economy was humming along nicely from 2004 to 2006, so people had more money to spend on leisure?
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
Transfer Rubles comrade... Transfer Rubles - With WDI being the conduit to funnel cash from P&R to Burbank.

I know you love a conspiracy theory and all, but what???? If this was China or Japan I could see the logic and the economics, but WDW is wholly owned so wouldn't WDI be funneling cash from Burbank right back to Burbank? What would the end game be?
 

Computer Magic

Well-Known Member
With Lucas - If he did not sell when he did his take on the sale of Lucasfilm LTD would have been about 30% lower so it was all about the benjamins in his case. With Jobs I think he wanted to concentrate on running Apple because he was starting the runup to the iPad/iPhone and APPLE+PIXAR was too much even for him to run.
Perhaps but they both waited to sell until Eisner was out. Steve and George had falling outs with Eisner which hurt their previous partnership.
 

Andrew C

You know what's funny?
In what alternate universe was the economy doing well in 2004-6 please tell us. For MOST of the country it went into recession 9/12/2001 and has stayed there ever since with the periodic dead cat bounce.

Think what you like but the economy was pretty decent in the mid 2000's. Unemployment was actually low and people were spending a lot more money than they are now. You can call it a bubble if you would like or an artificial boom, that's fine, but that doesn't change the facts.
 

Andrew C

You know what's funny?
Do you think lowering ticket prices by more than $100 per person had no effect on WDW theme park attendance or hotel occupancy?

It was a simple question. I was not disregarding what you were saying. I was just thinking about other factors that could have also contributed. Don't get all defensive on me now.
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Nah, I'm sorry, using those numbers in this manner is barely meaningful.

If I buy a Chicago mac&cheese stand for ten dollar, swap the cheese for provolone, and sell the stand for a thousand dollars a month later, I have increased its value by 100 x 12 = 1200 times per annum.

If I buy IBM for $100 billion, and manage to return it from $5 loss to $15 profit per year, selling it ten years later for $200 billion, I'll have doubled its worth in ten years,

By using the numbers in your fashion, in my example, the street stand vendor would be a twelve thousand times better businessperson than the CEO who oversaw one of the great turnarounds of modern US industrial behemoths. Using the numbers of market capitalization growth in this sense is meaningless.

Using real numbers is meaningless, but comparing TWDC to a Chicago mac&cheese stand (not that I have seen one, hot dog or pizza stand might have been better) is?

The point my friend was making in the note was that Disney was a tiny corporation with a very tired BRAND that was about to be sold off piece by piece when Michael and Frank took over in 1984. They took a TINY company and made it a worldwide media powerhouse, and during Michael Eisner's tenure the market cap exploded by 30 fold.

That is anything but meaningless (although, yes, I would agree that your example is nonsensical and, therefore, meaningless).

To use the analogy of swapping out cheese to the spectacular achievements TWDC made during ME's tenure shows a profound lack of understanding.

But let me point out, and it's possible others already have as I read this thread in order and am on page 313, the 2005 valuation of the WDC could be viewed as unfair to Michael Eisner as it had been depressed by a recession, the worst domestic terror attack in US history, multiple wars and a general collapse in the tourism sector.

Pre 9/11, what was the market valuation of TWDC? I can tell you the $59 billion 2005 number suffered from Wall Street discounting the stock, largely (but not totally) over MAJOR concerns in the P&R division.

But back to your original point, @Empress Lily, if the market cap of TWDC (or any company) as cited in the note to me is a bogus metric, do tell me if I were to buy TWDC today, what price would I have to pay for it and what would that number be based on?

Thanks.

Should one wish to do so regardless, here are more meaningful, because comparable, data sets. The two most recent decades, the first under Eisner (1995-2004), the second under Iger (2005-2014):

DIS Market Cap 1995: $54.26 billion
DIS Market Cap 2004: $49.35 billion
DS Market Cap 2014: $138.4 billion
Ouch!
Eisner sans Wells lost five billion. Iger exploded market cap.

My, my, at least we know you are creative. Perhaps, even a creative enough acountaneer to work for Disney. Tell me, Lilly, you just stated that Iger ''exploded market cap'' but in reality he did little more than double it during his tenure. If you were investing your money in a company, would you want the executive who took each of your dollars and made you 30 more? Or, would you want the one who took your dollar and handed you back two and change?

... Playing with numbers can be fun. Just the facts.
 

ford91exploder

Resident Curmudgeon
I know you love a conspiracy theory and all, but what???? If this was China or Japan I could see the logic and the economics, but WDW is wholly owned so wouldn't WDI be funneling cash from Burbank right back to Burbank? What would the end game be?

Actually I don't like conspiracy theories because they are the antithesis of critical thinking, I do frequently bring up things people including myself don't like to think about.

Disney does 'Hollywood Accounting' in Hollywood accounting there is always a division which has a vastly overstated cost structure and nearly all the costs of the company are placed there, This Division then bills other Divisions for 'services rendered'.

This in turn reduces the overall profit while moving the cash from a profitable department to an unprofitable department after which it is transferred to the mothership for use elsewhere.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hollywood_accounting
 

ford91exploder

Resident Curmudgeon
Think what you like but the economy was pretty decent in the mid 2000's. Unemployment was actually low and people were spending a lot more money than they are now. You can call it a bubble if you would like or an artificial boom, that's fine, but that doesn't change the facts.

There were some bright spots but the majority of the country has been in a recession for 13+ years
 

spacemt354

Chili's
edit: I had a response but I'm not going to bother. I disagree with this statement as I'm sure most guests would. You missed the point of my Kali River Rapids example too. It wasn't just an isolated incident. Under Eisner's management team, attractions would get the green light and be shown to the public and then completely fail to deliver due to budget cuts. Same thing happened with Expedition Everest. There was a lot of talk initially that it would have multiple Yeti AA's and actual theming inside of the building (the concept art even showns a far grander version of the attraction). What we ended up with was a building that looks nice from the outside (as long as you don't stare at the backside of it from the parking lot) but is just a barebones coaster in darkness inside with 1 yeti AA at the end that doesn't even work. Compare that to Matterhorn Mountain at Disneyland that is fully themed all around the mountain, has actual show scenes and ice caverns, multiple AAs, etc. That is how Disney is supposed to theme a ride.

Showing concept art and then changing and budgeting down is part of the creative process. Take concept art and announcements with a grain of salt. I only believe when new attractions are coming when there is visible construction taking place on said attraction.

The original FLE was announced to the public. We all know that was changed. Even the Mine Train itself was supposed to be longer, contain more show scenes, etc, but why not complain about that too?

Avatar was on-off alive-dead for months on these forums after the announcement. Same with Cars Land, Star Wars, etc. If these went dead, or downgraded from the original plans (as always happens in the creative process) I don't see how us knowing about a potential project being slashed on these forums is any different (given the time-period, tech, etc) then Eisner announcing in the 90s "This is our new ride we want" ....then having it eventually be axed.

Budget cuts happen, show scenes are always cut, it happened with Mine Train. But why are Eisner's attractions the only ones to be criticized?

I'm not an Eisner apologist by any means. There were definitely some things to criticize towards the end of his tenure. However, I'm not going to go on the offense and categorically claim he was terrible for WDW and the Disney company as a whole. Overall, his influence took Disney to another level. He raised the bar on the theme park industry, making WDW into the vacation destination it is today.
 

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