The Spirited Sixth Sense ...

[Cesar R M]

Much of the blame needs to fall squarely on the shoulders of Walt Disney Imagineering. Above everything else I believe the lack of constant attraction development in Disney World over the last ten years is mostly due to the soaring cost and uncontrolled budgets of WDI designed attractions.

I can total BS on this... really?

Running with @NoChesterHester 's point, Forbidden Journey's budget was 80-90 million and Little Mermaid was around 100 million.

seriously?
how the hell these projects cost so much to develop?
isnt the tech already proven and used before? (the little mermaid as example)

That's the truth! Anytime WDI gets involved in any little thing, like getting a new sign, it costs 10 times as much as it could have from an outside company.

Well, considering the maintenance issues WDW is having, I don think having an "outside" company would do much better if things are run in the same way.
Also.. seriously? trying to de-assemble and eliminate one of the core parts of Disney? (aka the imagineering)
Thats like removing the money out of a bank!

It is not something unique to Disney. It happens in a lot of companies as they grow. They become systematized, bureaucratic and entrenched. This is nothing new either. Bob Gurr cites these sorts of developments as a big reason for his leaving Walt Disney Imagineering decades ago. The obsession with franchises does not help as you now involve even more divisions that have seen similar developments. There is also an opposite distortion in driving prices down based on the outsourcing model where work is done for free in order to secure contracts that @whylightbulb has discussed in the past.

agree!

 

[marni1971]

seriously?

Seriously.

 

[Pumbas Nakasak]

Even the Uni hotels WITH express, that isn't really a huge reason people stay there. They stay there because they are damn nice hotels right next to the parks.

.

Actually for most UK guests it is the prime reason they stay there.

 

[lobelia]

Lucasfilm is run by some real professionals. I have no doubt they can give us more Star Wars movies.

Plans for the parks can be good or bad. Contrary to modern Disney fans opinions details DONT make the experience - it has to have substance in its concept. The substance is what is missing from New Fantasyland.

The more I think about this the more I agree. If we are going to a theme park to be immersed in a story the story must be the center of the design. Simpsons and Harry Potter are successful because there are a great deal of complex characters and content. Game of Thrones is successful because the characters and the details in the story are more than one dimensional. They evoke feeling. This is probably why we a have a hard time accepting Avatar. The story line has no complexity. Characters are either good or bad. Pandora is pretty and they will be able to do some cool things but it's hard to be excited about it because we have little investment in the story. I used to get really excited to see what Disney could do with construction and ambience but now I'm looking for something a little more.

 

[NoChesterHester]

Any idea why? This is something I've believed for a long time now and even actual Imagineers I've talked to can't seem to produce a solid answer.

EDIT: Well, that's not true, they did have some answers, and I can share their opinions but I'd like to hear yours first.

I'm not inside WDI and I'm afraid I don't have answers. It is all opinion based on an outsiders point of view. I'm sure if it were straightforward and simple they would fix it.

If I had to guess it is greatly an inefficiency due to motivation. An outside company generally receives a lump sum to complete a task so there is incentive for efficiency. WDI doesn't have that same motivation.

 

[NoChesterHester]

I can total BS on this... really?

There is always budget, but it is rarely adhered to. Not on purpose (I hope), but blown through at some point in the process.

Management and pre-development knows this so they account for it. That is partially what inflates modern day WDI Cap Ex estimates for new attractions.

seriously?
how the hell these projects cost so much to develop?
isnt the tech already proven and used before? (the little mermaid as example)

That is the $100 million dollar question.

Well, considering the maintenance issues WDW is having, I don think having an "outside" company would do much better if things are run in the same way.
Also.. seriously? trying to de-assemble and eliminate one of the core parts of Disney? (aka the imagineering)
Thats like removing the money out of a bank!

That is silly. Everyone, including outside companies can be held to a standard. WDI isn't responsible for maintaining the attractions anyway, that is operations. Why would the upkeep issues be related in any way. If anything, the upkeep issues probably illustrate the shortfalls of the company.

No one is suggesting to eliminate WDI. But a leaner version could yield better results.

Fans still have an emotional attachment to the idea of WDI. The reality is there are lots of companies now that can do themed entertainment design.

 

[RSoxNo1]

I just logged into My Disney Experience to make some dining reservations for 6 months from now. When I logged in it needed more information from me: address, and agreeing to their new terms of service. So I filled out all that info and my profile had more or less been deleted.

I'm on hold with them now and my expected wait time is, "Greater than 30 minutes".

Dear Disney,

If I'm waiting 30 minutes I expect to get on a ride, not speak to a person because your $2 billion website remodel is a giant cesspool of crap. The only thing My Disney Experience has succeeded in doing is embarrassing the company. If one more vacation has been booked because of the "convenience" of this B.S. I will be shocked.

Get your [stuff] together.

Love,
Tim

 

[Lee]

I was abit stunned to learn Jim Disney (owner of the most excellent Westcoaster website) is friends with him. But then again i'm not surprised since he has been mocking Miceage and Jim Hill for years.

I'm not sure they actually know each other. More likely just a Twitter thing.

 

[jlsHouston]

I'm in the construction industry. I understand a lot about how private development actually works; how it gets spawned, how it gets funded, and what things actually cost.

Fans need to stop blaming the issues of the lack of development of the parks solely on some mythical bean counter or some high level suit inside the Team Disney Orlando building. It is a complex issue and not one easily solved. As some great posters here have pointed out the culture of the company itself is to blame.

Much of the blame needs to fall squarely on the shoulders of Walt Disney Imagineering. Above everything else I believe the lack of constant attraction development in Disney World over the last ten years is mostly due to the soaring cost and uncontrolled budgets of WDI designed attractions.

When a new attraction does get built it seems to cost 2-3 times what it should if an outside organization were tasked with executing the same thing. So while we expect them to spend extravagantly due to the premium price, we are actually getting half of what we should.

The fans have gotten used to these crazy inflated attraction cost numbers and clamor for the all powerful corporation to pony up more money to make it happen. Face it... If you were running this business you wouldn't build much either since WDI can't seem to deliver market rate attractions.

The system is broken without end in sight. The fans need to stop protecting Imagineering as some sacred cow. Hold them to task. They are ultimately the ones responsible for this.

I like this topic but if I think about this a lot I am probably one of the fans that would side to protect Imagineering as the sacred cow.....I mean something should be a sacred cow at TWDC, right?

 

[Crafty]

I always felt that it was Imagineering that was responsible for creating the 'magic'. The magic has been sliding away and without Imagineering, it would be gone altogether. Imagineering has been losing the battle with the sharp pencil boys.

 

[flynnibus]

Us "fans" are the only ones who really give a damn if the hotel has express or not. I guarantee most booking at Cabana Bay don't even know they are missing out on it.

Even the Uni hotels WITH express, that isn't really a huge reason people stay there. They stay there because they are damn nice hotels right next to the parks.

I have no idea what you are basing these thoughts on... But I believe you are fully 100% off on this except for the conventioneers

 

[ford91exploder]

I'm in the construction industry. I understand a lot about how private development actually works; how it gets spawned, how it gets funded, and what things actually cost.

Fans need to stop blaming the issues of the lack of development of the parks solely on some mythical bean counter or some high level suit inside the Team Disney Orlando building. It is a complex issue and not one easily solved. As some great posters here have pointed out the culture of the company itself is to blame.

Much of the blame needs to fall squarely on the shoulders of Walt Disney Imagineering. Above everything else I believe the lack of constant attraction development in Disney World over the last ten years is mostly due to the soaring cost and uncontrolled budgets of WDI designed attractions.

When a new attraction does get built it seems to cost 2-3 times what it should if an outside organization were tasked with executing the same thing. So while we expect them to spend extravagantly due to the premium price, we are actually getting half of what we should.

The fans have gotten used to these crazy inflated attraction cost numbers and clamor for the all powerful corporation to pony up more money to make it happen. Face it... If you were running this business you wouldn't build much either since WDI can't seem to deliver market rate attractions.

The system is broken without end in sight. The fans need to stop protecting Imagineering as some sacred cow. Hold them to task. They are ultimately the ones responsible for this.

Both WDI and TDO report to Burbank, So yes it is fair to blame some suit in TWDC because the WDI suit is responsible for the cost bloat and the TDO suit is responsible for not wanting to spend anything on new Attractions.

At this point it appears that WDI is the vehicle that TWDC uses to perform 'Hollywood Accounting' for anything related to P&R expenses because NOTHING justifies their costs relative to comparable creative organizations.

 

[RandySavage]

You don't need me to tell you this, but a large part of the cost issue being discussed is Overhead (WDI's is much, much greater than Uni's). Another is the style of attraction delivered by WDI (concrete rockwork and AAs are expensive). WDI remains the only company in the world that delivers terrain-following "mountain" outdoor coasters made of concrete rockwork, and my hat's off to them for that. Seven Dwarfs is the latest, stunning example; it is an awesome sight in person. WDI is the premium design and delivery shop, with premium prices, but most of the time, they can be counted on to deliver. Some of that cost-adding overhead maintains certain aspects I'd hate to see get shed (Archives, R&D) like MAPO was. Other pieces of overhead might be worth examining.

I'm pretty bullish on their(WDI's) product as of late. Just got back from WDW - noted plenty of problems/issues but most were on the operations/upkeep&maintenance (tons of non-functioning effects)/legal/landscaping/development side (TDO), not the new stuff WDI was adding to the parks. Consider this: If WDI had added nothing to WDW (zero 'CapEx') in the last decade, but everything (attractions, entertainment, retail) that was standing 10 years ago was meticulously maintained to the platinum, opening-day standard, and prices were frozen, I think that hypothetical State of the Resort would be praised when compared to today. This tells me the complaint-worthy problems stem mostly from areas outside WDI.

I thought the nearly-finished New Fantasyland & completed Storybook Circus were beautiful (especially when they emptied of strollers) and greatly improve the MK in perpetuity. Don't agree with the style-versus-substance argument: in theme parks, transporting environments are substance. NFL looks much better in person than in photos, too. Thought the Treasures of the Seven Seas game in Adventureland was outstanding and a great throwback to the unadvertised little inbetweens that are signatures of great parks. The new Test Track was a solid improvement. The Big Thunder Queue was a bonus. Haunted Mansion head-switching finale was a cool upgrade.

And that's just at the languishing (upkeep- and addition- wise) WDW. WDI has maintained a pretty excellent batting average elsewhere over the past few years, exemplified recently by the new Big Thunder effects in Anaheim, Mystic Manor, Grizzly Gulch, etc. Watching closely to see how this year's Mine Train and Ratatouille work out (new ride systems) and especially keen on what Shanghai shows us about WDI (what will a brand new, $3.7billion WDI castle park be like?) in 2015.

 

[DVC91]

I love reading the first few pages of big threads like this. After that I fast forward to the more recent pages when the entire conversation has devolved into arguments and I try to find out where it all went wrong

 

[ford91exploder]

Yes, but it took a lot more than 1 man.

All that I'm saying is that we can't judge our country or our society on the radical thoughts of one politician or one academic. People have radical ideas all the time. That right is still protected by the constitution. Implying that our country is heading towards becoming Nazi Germany because some person or group of people want to imprison anti-environmentalists for life is a stretch. If as a nation we elected senators and congressmen and a president that all felt that way maybe then there would be parallels.

One nutcase gets enough followers, A press fixated on 'access' does nothing followers elect those who believe same. All of a sudden you have evil incarnate as a government.

I grew up KNOWING people who lived in 1930's Germany they did not believe it could happen there either IT DID, And the democratic process brought it into being with all the legalities being observed with the press cheering on the 'Savior of the German People'.

Our parish priest was one of the kids 'hidden' from the Nazi's as he was one of the 'undesirables' destined for the camps.

Sticking your head in the sand and saying it can't happen here is the best way to ensure that it does happen here, The nutcases need to be called out and the dark corners of their ideology explored and reported to all, Not allowing the happy smiling face with a demons heart to continue on their merry way.

A very apt scene from Star Wars

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=cp069Y_P-9M#t=0

 

[NoChesterHester]

I always felt that it was Imagineering that was responsible for creating the 'magic'. The magic has been sliding away and without Imagineering, it would be gone altogether. Imagineering has been losing the battle with the sharp pencil boys.

Did you read any of this debate? That just isn't true.

 

[NoChesterHester]

I like this topic but if I think about this a lot I am probably one of the fans that would side to protect Imagineering as the sacred cow.....I mean something should be a sacred cow at TWDC, right?

I just don't understand this.

Why protect an ideal that no longer exists and is partially responsible for the declining state?

 

[huntzilla]

Yep. Northern VA my whole life. Did the metro and even commuter train thing for a while but it gets sketchy. You can get murdered...robbed...trains always late etc...

Been a NoVAnite my entire life. I think you are selling short how great and statistically safe this area is. Having said that, the trouble that the metro will undoubtedly bring to Tysons worries me.

 

[JimboJones123]

I just logged into My Disney Experience to make some dining reservations for 6 months from now. When I logged in it needed more information from me: address, and agreeing to their new terms of service. So I filled out all that info and my profile had more or less been deleted.

I'm on hold with them now and my expected wait time is, "Greater than 30 minutes".

Dear Disney,

If I'm waiting 30 minutes I expect to get on a ride, not speak to a person because your $2 billion website remodel is a giant cesspool of crap. The only thing My Disney Experience has succeeded in doing is embarrassing the company. If one more vacation has been booked because of the "convenience" of this B.S. I will be shocked.

Get your [stuff] together.

Love,
Tim

Well, that is 30 minutes after navigating the 5 minute phone menu wanting to know how often you visit after having already looked you up by your phone number.

 

[NoChesterHester]

Both WDI and TDO report to Burbank, So yes it is fair to blame some suit in TWDC because the WDI suit is responsible for the cost bloat and the TDO suit is responsible for not wanting to spend anything on new Attractions.

I'm not some TDO apologist, but I'm not positive this is actually how it happens and the blame may be partially in the wrong place. Everyone here assumes there is a group of suits at TDO that orders, or doesn't order up attractions.

Part of Imagineering is a division called pre-development. It is my understanding this arm of WDI functions very similar to a real world developer and the actually decide what is needed based on data and decide on what to build to meet that demand. This division of WDI actually comes to TDO and states, "you need one attraction for this park and here are your three expensive options." Many times they instead say, "your current levels don't necessitate a new attraction."

Yes that is WDI, not some suit in an office building in Burbank. I hope people understand this and start to let this sink in.

At this point it appears that WDI is the vehicle that TWDC uses to perform 'Hollywood Accounting' for anything related to P&R expenses because NOTHING justifies their costs relative to comparable creative organizations.

Truth.