The Spirited Sixth Sense ...

Goofyernmost

Well-Known Member
Not enough likes for this post! Oh, EPCOT Center- I miss your glory days!
We all miss the early days of EPCOT Ctr. I do too, but, you know what we can spend a lifetime looking back and in the process miss today and tomorrow. Epcot, is not the same, true! It has changed from one focus to a more foggy focus, but, it's what we have now. I enjoyed Horizons, but I also enjoy Mission: Space and to me it seems like I am part of it way more then I ever did with Horizons. I enjoyed WoM and thought it was very Disney, but, it's gone and Test Track has replaced it. WoM is not coming back either, there is only so long anyone should mourn the loss of a theme park ride before we move on and get enjoyment out of what is there. I loved Imagination as a complete Pavilion and hate that it no longer is one. I hate that they put Michael (hand to crotch) Jackson back in when it was rejected so many years ago. If I am absolutely honest the only part of the Imagination ride that was jaw dropping was the first part with the turntable, Dream Finder and Figment, after that it was cool but it was also boring in many places. UoE was a 45 minute advertisement for Exxon. Now, like her or not, Ellen has made it at least focused on science and explanations and HUMOR. Don't miss the original at all. Wonders of life, had Body Wars and Cranium Command, other then that, for adults, meh! It is criminal that nothing new has gone in there though.

Let's skip back over to The Land, shall we? Originally there was The Symbiosis Film that I cannot comment on because I have never seen it. Living with the Land is essentially the same ride as when it open. Soarin is a much more immersive show then Kitchen Kabaret that, if you let yourself admit it, was just a kiddy puppet show with catchy music. You never saw an hour long line waiting to see Kabaret, I'm sure. The Seas, OK I miss the Hyrdolators they were a fun part of it, but, today's ride, although dominated by Nemo is longer and at least leaves one with something to look at. Not a huge improvement but at least different. The inside, aquarium view hasn't changed a lot, if you've seen one fish swimming you have seen them all. Interesting but only for short periods of time. Sure they had the diver in the tube, but that wasn't constant and if you weren't there at showtime you didn't get to see it. Turtle talk is more entertaining.

One part that has changed negatively, in my mind, is Innoventions. That used to take up a lot of time, just looking around at things. It was never my favorite and probably not that many others felt it was a must see. I did enjoy it though.

The next is purely my opinion. Spaceship Earth, was never the same after the Walter Cronkite version ended. He was a voice that I grew up listening too and he projected calmness and the sense that everything no matter how much it changed was going to be alright. As for the ending, I haven't see one yet since the place opened up that I didn't think was lame and mostly an afterthought. Sometimes the more things change the more they stay the same.

Epcot remains my favorite park not only for what it once was, but for what it is today. I can venture one thing though and that is, if the bean counters had any reason to think that EPCOT was pulling them in, we would still be looking at everything we did in 1983. The idea that we, as a group, rehash the "old" EPCOT as much as we do seems to just be a futile attempt at nostalgia. They aren't coming back, the world has changed to the degree that it isn't wanted, except for by a group of raging fans. In the overused words of the Frozen song... "Let it Go!"
 

lebeau

Well-Known Member
We all miss the early days of EPCOT Ctr. I do too, but, you know what we can spend a lifetime looking back and in the process miss today and tomorrow. Epcot, is not the same, true! It has changed from one focus to a more foggy focus, but, it's what we have now. I enjoyed Horizons, but I also enjoy Mission: Space and to me it seems like I am part of it way more then I ever did with Horizons. I enjoyed WoM and thought it was very Disney, but, it's gone and Test Track has replaced it. WoM is not coming back either, there is only so long anyone should mourn the loss of a theme park ride before we move on and get enjoyment out of what is there. I loved Imagination as a complete Pavilion and hate that it no longer is one. I hate that they put Michael (hand to crotch) Jackson back in when it was rejected so many years ago. If I am absolutely honest the only part of the Imagination ride that was jaw dropping was the first part with the turntable, Dream Finder and Figment, after that it was cool but it was also boring in many places. UoE was a 45 minute advertisement for Exxon. Now, like her or not, Ellen has made it at least focused on science and explanations and HUMOR. Don't miss the original at all. Wonders of life, had Body Wars and Cranium Command, other then that, for adults, meh! It is criminal that nothing new has gone in there though.

Let's skip back over to The Land, shall we? Originally there was The Symbiosis Film that I cannot comment on because I have never seen it. Living with the Land is essentially the same ride as when it open. Soarin is a much more immersive show then Kitchen Kabaret that, if you let yourself admit it, was just a kiddy puppet show with catchy music. You never saw an hour long line waiting to see Kabaret, I'm sure. The Seas, OK I miss the Hyrdolators they were a fun part of it, but, today's ride, although dominated by Nemo is longer and at least leaves one with something to look at. Not a huge improvement but at least different. The inside, aquarium view hasn't changed a lot, if you've seen one fish swimming you have seen them all. Interesting but only for short periods of time. Sure they had the diver in the tube, but that wasn't constant and if you weren't there at showtime you didn't get to see it. Turtle talk is more entertaining.

One part that has changed negatively, in my mind, is Innoventions. That used to take up a lot of time, just looking around at things. It was never my favorite and probably not that many others felt it was a must see. I did enjoy it though.

The next is purely my opinion. Spaceship Earth, was never the same after the Walter Cronkite version ended. He was a voice that I grew up listening too and he projected calmness and the sense that everything no matter how much it changed was going to be alright. As for the ending, I haven't see one yet since the place opened up that I didn't think was lame and mostly an afterthought. Sometimes the more things change the more they stay the same.

Epcot remains my favorite park not only for what it once was, but for what it is today. I can venture one thing though and that is, if the bean counters had any reason to think that EPCOT was pulling them in, we would still be looking at everything we did in 1983. The idea that we, as a group, rehash the "old" EPCOT as much as we do seems to just be a futile attempt at nostalgia. They aren't coming back, the world has changed to the degree that it isn't wanted, except for by a group of raging fans. In the overused words of the Frozen song... "Let it Go!"

8385380_i_disagree_answer_2_xlarge.jpeg
 

Funmeister

Well-Known Member
We all miss the early days of EPCOT Ctr. I do too, but, you know what we can spend a lifetime looking back and in the process miss today and tomorrow. Epcot, is not the same, true! It has changed from one focus to a more foggy focus, but, it's what we have now. I enjoyed Horizons, but I also enjoy Mission: Space and to me it seems like I am part of it way more then I ever did with Horizons. I enjoyed WoM and thought it was very Disney, but, it's gone and Test Track has replaced it. WoM is not coming back either, there is only so long anyone should mourn the loss of a theme park ride before we move on and get enjoyment out of what is there. I loved Imagination as a complete Pavilion and hate that it no longer is one. I hate that they put Michael (hand to crotch) Jackson back in when it was rejected so many years ago. If I am absolutely honest the only part of the Imagination ride that was jaw dropping was the first part with the turntable, Dream Finder and Figment, after that it was cool but it was also boring in many places. UoE was a 45 minute advertisement for Exxon. Now, like her or not, Ellen has made it at least focused on science and explanations and HUMOR. Don't miss the original at all. Wonders of life, had Body Wars and Cranium Command, other then that, for adults, meh! It is criminal that nothing new has gone in there though.

Let's skip back over to The Land, shall we? Originally there was The Symbiosis Film that I cannot comment on because I have never seen it. Living with the Land is essentially the same ride as when it open. Soarin is a much more immersive show then Kitchen Kabaret that, if you let yourself admit it, was just a kiddy puppet show with catchy music. You never saw an hour long line waiting to see Kabaret, I'm sure. The Seas, OK I miss the Hyrdolators they were a fun part of it, but, today's ride, although dominated by Nemo is longer and at least leaves one with something to look at. Not a huge improvement but at least different. The inside, aquarium view hasn't changed a lot, if you've seen one fish swimming you have seen them all. Interesting but only for short periods of time. Sure they had the diver in the tube, but that wasn't constant and if you weren't there at showtime you didn't get to see it. Turtle talk is more entertaining.

One part that has changed negatively, in my mind, is Innoventions. That used to take up a lot of time, just looking around at things. It was never my favorite and probably not that many others felt it was a must see. I did enjoy it though.

The next is purely my opinion. Spaceship Earth, was never the same after the Walter Cronkite version ended. He was a voice that I grew up listening too and he projected calmness and the sense that everything no matter how much it changed was going to be alright. As for the ending, I haven't see one yet since the place opened up that I didn't think was lame and mostly an afterthought. Sometimes the more things change the more they stay the same.

Epcot remains my favorite park not only for what it once was, but for what it is today. I can venture one thing though and that is, if the bean counters had any reason to think that EPCOT was pulling them in, we would still be looking at everything we did in 1983. The idea that we, as a group, rehash the "old" EPCOT as much as we do seems to just be a futile attempt at nostalgia. They aren't coming back, the world has changed to the degree that it isn't wanted, except for by a group of raging fans. In the overused words of the Frozen song... "Let it Go!"

CHALLENGE TIME! Even though the things you gave your opinion about are true...do this for just a moment.

Close your eyes. Imagine the breathing living essence of EPCOT Center...not the coming and going of attractions and voiceovers.

The complaints that people post about what EPCOT Center used to be like is not anti-new attractions. IT is that the new stuff has destroyed the 'spirit' of everything EPCOT Center stood for. What it meant. The will, power and exploration of mankind.

I think you missed the same point about the steam trains. Something you will probably not understand. Not trying to be mean but I think you see Disney theme parks as bolts holding a painted piece of fiberglass that is in the shape of an elephant to a rotating steel arm instead of realizing you really can fly on the back of Dumbo WITHOUT the magic feather.
 

marni1971

Park History nut
Premium Member
We all miss the early days of EPCOT Ctr. I do too, but, you know what we can spend a lifetime looking back and in the process miss today and tomorrow. Epcot, is not the same, true! It has changed from one focus to a more foggy focus, but, it's what we have now.
Perhaps, and no offence meant, you missed the point.

EPCOT Center was greater than the sum of its parts. Most parts were awesome, but the small parts from the BGM to the logos, signs and typography, to the landscaping, architecture, lighting, the exhibits, Communicore, eateries and shows, all the way up to the E tickets made the park unique.

Nowerdays it's a few pockets of great amongst a sea of average and mismatched, hotchpotched themes and vague directions.

Again, no offence.
 

JimboJones123

Well-Known Member
Epcot used to be a full day experience.

Half of Future World in the morning. World Showcase in the afternoon. The other half of Future World in the evening.

There were no Future World capacity issues. The lines flowed. They were not the 60 to 120 minute bog downs. Half of each pavilion was the attractions. The other half was experiencing the rest of the the pavilions.

Honestly, if I had to spend an entire day at Epcot now, I would kill myself. Wheb we do go, we spend half the time walking around World Showcase because the other attractions have either stupid long lines or are just not must see.

The Land boat ride is at least one that can provide a quality experience at a respectable wait.
 

sshindel

The Epcot Manifesto
We all miss the early days of EPCOT Ctr. I do too, but, you know what we can spend a lifetime looking back and in the process miss today and tomorrow. Epcot, is not the same, true! It has changed from one focus to a more foggy focus, but, it's what we have now. I enjoyed Horizons, but I also enjoy Mission: Space and to me it seems like I am part of it way more then I ever did with Horizons. I enjoyed WoM and thought it was very Disney, but, it's gone and Test Track has replaced it. WoM is not coming back either, there is only so long anyone should mourn the loss of a theme park ride before we move on and get enjoyment out of what is there. I loved Imagination as a complete Pavilion and hate that it no longer is one. I hate that they put Michael (hand to crotch) Jackson back in when it was rejected so many years ago. If I am absolutely honest the only part of the Imagination ride that was jaw dropping was the first part with the turntable, Dream Finder and Figment, after that it was cool but it was also boring in many places. UoE was a 45 minute advertisement for Exxon. Now, like her or not, Ellen has made it at least focused on science and explanations and HUMOR. Don't miss the original at all. Wonders of life, had Body Wars and Cranium Command, other then that, for adults, meh! It is criminal that nothing new has gone in there though.

Let's skip back over to The Land, shall we? Originally there was The Symbiosis Film that I cannot comment on because I have never seen it. Living with the Land is essentially the same ride as when it open. Soarin is a much more immersive show then Kitchen Kabaret that, if you let yourself admit it, was just a kiddy puppet show with catchy music. You never saw an hour long line waiting to see Kabaret, I'm sure. The Seas, OK I miss the Hyrdolators they were a fun part of it, but, today's ride, although dominated by Nemo is longer and at least leaves one with something to look at. Not a huge improvement but at least different. The inside, aquarium view hasn't changed a lot, if you've seen one fish swimming you have seen them all. Interesting but only for short periods of time. Sure they had the diver in the tube, but that wasn't constant and if you weren't there at showtime you didn't get to see it. Turtle talk is more entertaining.

One part that has changed negatively, in my mind, is Innoventions. That used to take up a lot of time, just looking around at things. It was never my favorite and probably not that many others felt it was a must see. I did enjoy it though.

The next is purely my opinion. Spaceship Earth, was never the same after the Walter Cronkite version ended. He was a voice that I grew up listening too and he projected calmness and the sense that everything no matter how much it changed was going to be alright. As for the ending, I haven't see one yet since the place opened up that I didn't think was lame and mostly an afterthought. Sometimes the more things change the more they stay the same.

Epcot remains my favorite park not only for what it once was, but for what it is today. I can venture one thing though and that is, if the bean counters had any reason to think that EPCOT was pulling them in, we would still be looking at everything we did in 1983. The idea that we, as a group, rehash the "old" EPCOT as much as we do seems to just be a futile attempt at nostalgia. They aren't coming back, the world has changed to the degree that it isn't wanted, except for by a group of raging fans. In the overused words of the Frozen song... "Let it Go!"

Dear spaghetti monster, I don't think I have the strength to not respond to this post.

Part of me wants to go through piece by piece and attack each of your points. Part of me wants to defend the honor of my beloved Kitchen Kabaret over that overblown clone of a ride that should have stayed in California, take down your idea that a good portion of the original Imagination was boring, scoff at the thought that "once you've seen one fish swimming you've seen them all", debate in detail why swapping Horizons for Mission:Space was a massive debacle, get into the idea of an empty pavilion sitting unused, piece by piece take issue with this post. But, you know what, it's all opinion. You are free to your opinion on Epcot. You'll find some people even agree with parts of it.

What I want to focus on here is something different. More meaningful. It's what EPCOT once stood for, and what it does now. EPCOT as envisioned by Walt is entirely different than what was built. Walt's vision for an experimental community was not going to fly as a theme park (if it would have worked is another interesting point of discussion). But, while there were not people living, working, collaborating, inventing in the EPCOT that was opened in the 80's, I always felt the spirit of what the park stood for. Through entertainment and technology, it was meant to foster the imaginative spirit and inquisitive nature of all of us to realize the things that are possible in the world. It was meant to educate and inspire us to a greater future.
That is what is lacking today. It's all been taken away, given lip service here or there, but based on the (incorrect) assumption that people thought learning was boring, and that kids needed to be talked to at the lowest level possible in order to keep them engaged.

World of Motion gave me the history of travel, and through understanding where we came from, it inspired us to look towards the places we could go in the future. Test Track just lets me know a simplified (and false) version of how they design and test current cars.

Nemo. I don't think I can even say it. What does Nemo do to inspire us? Seabase Alpha let us look towards the time when undersea exploration might help us understand the very nature of our planet in a deeper (pun!) way. The oceans make up 70% of our planet, and we've explored less than 5% of them. Forget the fish, that was NEVER the point of Seabase Alpha. Nemo inspires us to buy merchandise now.

Horizons. Sigh. "If we can dream it, we can do it". Looking towards the future. What Mission Space does is simulate something that for the most part happened in the 60's (substitute the moon for Mars). There is next to NOTHING forward facing in this. Nothing to inspire me to study the universe. Heck, there was nothing there to even inspire me to ride it a second time (ever).

Imagination is a travesty in it's current state, and it used to be the linchpin of the entire park. Through imagination, experience, and education the future was going to be possible. Now we learn about the 5 senses. Great, my kindergartener's mind will be blown.

No one wants to hear me rail against Soarin, believe me. Y'all seem to like that ride.

I loved the points brought up earlier regarding the soundtrack to EPCOT and what it truly meant. Those thoughts made me smile and nod.

I could go on and on. The point here is that what EPCOT was meant to do, it's mission statement:
To all who come to this place of joy, hope of enterprise and concepts of a future that promises new and exciting benefits for all. May EPCOT Center entertain, inform and inspire and above all, may it instill a new sense of belief and pride in man's ability to shape a world that offers hope to people everywhere in the world.

E. Cardon Walker, October 24, 1982

That is all gone now. Education was replaced for entertainment, and a lot of times in the lowest common denominator (ohh, skunk smell, LOLZ). Was EPCOT perfect? Of course not. Where Disney failed here was it took a step backwards and not forwards. EPCOT needed to be cutting edge at all times. It needed to be always looking one, two, five steps ahead. It needed to change ahead of the times. Instead it was gutted and in it's place was an empty facade with some neon lights that distract the children. And a hangglider simulation about California, you know, the FUTURE!
 

LondonGopher

Well-Known Member
It's easy to feel all doom-and-gloom about the state of society (and people were feeling that way even back in the "good ol' days." Which ones? Take your pick!), but I really don't think it's true that the majority of people shun educational opportunities that are also fun and entertaining. I live in Alabama, which enjoys a terrible reputation when it comes to education. Yet unapologetically educational venues like the McWane Science Center in Birmingham and the U.S. Space and Rocket Center in Huntsville remain packed. (Woe unto those who head to the McWane Center on a rainy Saturday.) Zoos and aquariums are educational at their heart, and those don't suffer. It's all in the presentation...and (though it sometimes seems to be a bad word around here) the marketing.

This is so true. Here in London, our museums are PACKED with kids on weekends and school holidays (this is partly because our national museums are free - like the Smithsonian in America). And those are hard-core learning museums (Natural History, Science, British Museum). To get tickets for the family performances of the symphony, we have to book months in advance, and families line up for ages before and after to try the instruments and meet the orchestra. The same is true for the kids' programs at the National Gallery and the other art museums. There are simply not enough places for all the kids who want to grow in knowledge.

Watch the kids touching the skull of the sabre-toothed cat, see the looks on their faces when they hear Shostakovich for the first time...it's hunger you see. And not hunger for chicken nuggets.

The MAJORITY may not be visiting eductional venues regularly but the minority that do are loyal and passionate about learning and (dirty word here in modern times)...self-improvement. This is the BOOT-STRAPS OPTIMISM that drove Walt Disney and used to be so visible in Epcot. We can be better, we can be MORE than just CONSUMERS. That idea is out of fashion right now...but I hope the worm will turn.
 

wdisney9000

Truindenashendubapreser
Premium Member
I love to imagine if EPCOT had become what Walt wanted it to be. An actual community. A community that re-wrote the rules on how we live and work together. Not just a community propped up by dollars and kept afloat by profits from the the theme park, but a new way of living. It actually could have changed the landscape of the entire world in a way that nobody could have envisioned. The same way DL and WDW changed the theme park business.

Walt was a visionary and I think he was onto something. He sat on that park bench and wanted something better for himself and his children to enjoy their time together and he made it happen in a big way. Perhaps after he was done with the theme park business he wanted something better for mankind and the future and he set out to do it, in a way that could potentially shape the future to allow this planet to become what many people only dream about it becoming. A Peaceful, resourceful, self sustaining, crime free, poverty free world. While that may seem like a stretch, so was the idea of DL when Walt first pitched it.

How many people mention how they go to DL or WDW to "escape reality"? And thats just a theme park! The escape would not be necessary if the world was a better place and I think Walt was trying to install the foundation for that type of world. Sadly though, when he died, the hopes and dreams of that better tomorrow died with him and the IDEA of a better tomorrow was turned into a slogan to be profited of off. The greed of man will never allow this world to become a better place.
 

ford91exploder

Resident Curmudgeon
interesting take from a person who i know who has taught in japan where students learn by writing down word for word what the teacher writes on the board..the most simplistic way of teaching yet Japan "scores" higher than we do on most standardized test...reason....number one respect for learning and reason number two it matters at home
kids here have the ability to take college level classes as a junior in high school so being challenged can be done...
dont get me wrong the public school system is far from perfect and neither party has a clue what to do about it..the bottom line is educational problems are not political and they cannot be fixed by politicians

Education can however be made WORSE by politicians intervening which is exactly what we see happening today.

I can do fairly complex math in my head, Today's kids need a calculator to make change from a dollar basic SKILLS are not being taught or being taught very poorly. My great grandmother who attended a 1 room school on the Hungarian plains could do math in her head.

But the schools will spend WEEKS on why we should recycle (it should be obvious to any thinking being WHY) use curly lightbulbs etc, Basic skills like math and english who cares about those.

I was visiting a school in the Netherlands and the kids are learning Dutch/German/French/English/Chinese in the FIRST GRADE! and it's ALL the kids in the class learning ALL the named languages.

We can go rah-rah American Schools the reality is we suck at education here.
 

Goofyernmost

Well-Known Member
CHALLENGE TIME! Even though the things you gave your opinion about are true...do this for just a moment.

Close your eyes. Imagine the breathing living essence of EPCOT Center...not the coming and going of attractions and voiceovers.

The complaints that people post about what EPCOT Center used to be like is not anti-new attractions. IT is that the new stuff has destroyed the 'spirit' of everything EPCOT Center stood for. What it meant. The will, power and exploration of mankind.

I think you missed the same point about the steam trains. Something you will probably not understand. Not trying to be mean but I think you see Disney theme parks as bolts holding a painted piece of fiberglass that is in the shape of an elephant to a rotating steel arm instead of realizing you really can fly on the back of Dumbo WITHOUT the magic feather.
No, I didn't miss the point about either one of them. (Not the Dumbo one, because that isn't flying, it's riding in a plastic elephant with a broken ear, apparently, because it only flies in a circle.) Granted I don't feel the same about steam trains, but, I do about Epcot. I loved the old Epcot. The point I'm making is that it no longer matters how any of us feel about it. It is gone and it isn't coming back. Why? Because an awful lot of today's guests, had no exposure to the old EPCOT. They are a different generation, for a lack of a better way to put it, and our idea of quality entertainment is different then theirs. Because of that the old EPCOT did not have the draw that sustained it, as it was, and it is no longer there. The world has changed and everything looks better when looking backwards to those of us that have experienced it. Whether or not, it has lost it original essence is of little concern to any of those that either didn't experience or, like mention before, "didn't want to be educated while on Vacation".

My one and only point is that we keep bringing it up, not in the sense that it is good to remember it, but in the sense like if we enough they will change it back. All we do is ruin what is, currently there for ourselves and, as I listed in my post, there are a lot of things that have made the new Epcot worth the effort as well.

Besides that I don't post that stuff as an argument, which I know you think I do, but, as the way that I look at it now. I liked EPCOT of old and I like Epcot of new. It's that simple. I go to Epcot now and still enjoy it, but differently then I did back then. I miss some of the old things and the objective that built them, but, I miss lots of things that we used to have that we don't have in life now. I will repeat, no one ever has to agree with my opinion about things and I don't have to agree with yours either. I am not, however, going to stifle my opinion because someone thinks I am trying to pick a fight when all I am doing is telling people how I feel about things and why I feel that way. And please pack away that "Challenge" garbage. None of us are in Middle School anymore. I understand the Disney "magic" of old and new. I haven't made 44 trips there, mostly from Vermont without being somewhat influenced by it. I know that people like me are classified as "Pixie Dusters", I maintain that it is those that cannot let go of the past and deal with the present, as it is, that are a little Pixie saturated. The only way that I can make a statement that has any relevance at all when it comes to how they run the parks is with my wallet (i.e. no longer giving them money to support their vision of how it should be.) Back in the day, is nice for conversation but without a time machine, it isn't easily attainable anymore.

The original Disney Park (DL) and the first few years after Walt died, they continued to be operated as if he was still there calling the shots. The Disney Company, as it is now, would be a total shock to him. Even though he knew how to be successful on a much smaller scale, what it is now would floor him. It could no longer be a one man show. It now relies on many different personalities to make decisions. Decisions by committee are notorious for being useless. Are the Disney Parks like they once were? No, not even close,
Both MK east and west are pretty close to how it was, because they haven't changed much of anything for a couple of decades.

In all seriousness though, I get tired of defending my opinion. It's not up for bids. It's how I feel about things all of which you have every right to disagree with, but, it does upset me when you treat me like a 5 year old that cannot see or understand how others feel about stuff. But, is there a big enough number of "others" to make change come about? That's what I doubt and just, like this post, take up space complaining with absolutely no chance of making an impact on those that have control.

Perhaps, and no offence meant, you missed the point.

EPCOT Center was greater than the sum of its parts. Most parts were awesome, but the small parts from the BGM to the logos, signs and typography, to the landscaping, architecture, lighting, the exhibits, Communicore, eateries and shows, all the way up to the E tickets made the park unique.

Nowerdays it's a few pockets of great amongst a sea of average and mismatched, hotchpotched themes and vague directions.

Again, no offence.
None taken... how could I take offense when I had absolutely nothing to do with the original or the current. I haven't once said that overall it is better now then it was then, to any of us. Even today they spin it as building it for Walt. Walt would have burnt it down, that never was what he envisioned as EPCOT. For one thing it isn't a Community, it is now and was then a theme park. A good one yes, but to always reference back to Walt is like saying that I invented the automobile because I own one. It was a very good park that almost none of us appreciated until it was gone. For a time shortly before it changed, how many lines did you have to wait in to see Horizons, WoM, WoL, Imagination, The Seas, The Land? We took it for granted and got bored with it. They all had lines when the park opened, but the times, guest and desires changed and now it's gone. It lived in a brief era that worked during that time, but, stopped. We miss it, but if I had to guess, we are a huge minority of current Disney guests.
 

ford91exploder

Resident Curmudgeon
Dear spaghetti monster, I don't think I have the strength to not respond to this post.

Part of me wants to go through piece by piece and attack each of your points. Part of me wants to defend the honor of my beloved Kitchen Kabaret over that overblown clone of a ride that should have stayed in California, take down your idea that a good portion of the original Imagination was boring, scoff at the thought that "once you've seen one fish swimming you've seen them all", debate in detail why swapping Horizons for Mission:Space was a massive debacle, get into the idea of an empty pavilion sitting unused, piece by piece take issue with this post. But, you know what, it's all opinion. You are free to your opinion on Epcot. You'll find some people even agree with parts of it.

What I want to focus on here is something different. More meaningful. It's what EPCOT once stood for, and what it does now. EPCOT as envisioned by Walt is entirely different than what was built. Walt's vision for an experimental community was not going to fly as a theme park (if it would have worked is another interesting point of discussion). But, while there were not people living, working, collaborating, inventing in the EPCOT that was opened in the 80's, I always felt the spirit of what the park stood for. Through entertainment and technology, it was meant to foster the imaginative spirit and inquisitive nature of all of us to realize the things that are possible in the world. It was meant to educate and inspire us to a greater future.
That is what is lacking today. It's all been taken away, given lip service here or there, but based on the (incorrect) assumption that people thought learning was boring, and that kids needed to be talked to at the lowest level possible in order to keep them engaged.

World of Motion gave me the history of travel, and through understanding where we came from, it inspired us to look towards the places we could go in the future. Test Track just lets me know a simplified (and false) version of how they design and test current cars.

Nemo. I don't think I can even say it. What does Nemo do to inspire us? Seabase Alpha let us look towards the time when undersea exploration might help us understand the very nature of our planet in a deeper (pun!) way. The oceans make up 70% of our planet, and we've explored less than 5% of them. Forget the fish, that was NEVER the point of Seabase Alpha. Nemo inspires us to buy merchandise now.

Horizons. Sigh. "If we can dream it, we can do it". Looking towards the future. What Mission Space does is simulate something that for the most part happened in the 60's (substitute the moon for Mars). There is next to NOTHING forward facing in this. Nothing to inspire me to study the universe. Heck, there was nothing there to even inspire me to ride it a second time (ever).

Imagination is a travesty in it's current state, and it used to be the linchpin of the entire park. Through imagination, experience, and education the future was going to be possible. Now we learn about the 5 senses. Great, my kindergartener's mind will be blown.

No one wants to hear me rail against Soarin, believe me. Y'all seem to like that ride.

I loved the points brought up earlier regarding the soundtrack to EPCOT and what it truly meant. Those thoughts made me smile and nod.

I could go on and on. The point here is that what EPCOT was meant to do, it's mission statement:


That is all gone now. Education was replaced for entertainment, and a lot of times in the lowest common denominator (ohh, skunk smell, LOLZ). Was EPCOT perfect? Of course not. Where Disney failed here was it took a step backwards and not forwards. EPCOT needed to be cutting edge at all times. It needed to be always looking one, two, five steps ahead. It needed to change ahead of the times. Instead it was gutted and in it's place was an empty facade with some neon lights that distract the children. And a hangglider simulation about California, you know, the FUTURE!

May his noodly appendages caress you...
 

lebeau

Well-Known Member
I would never advocate for Epcot to move backwards. That defeats the entire purpose of a place called Future World. Epcot needed to be updated. Disney chose to do it in the cheapest, easiest way possible. They abandoned the core principles of the park. And not because people thought it was too boring or too educational. It's because trying to remain on the cutting edge when technology is constantly racing forward is hard to do and expensive. Easier to get thrills with thrill rides. Who cares if they have nothing to do with what makes the place special? Apparently, not @Goofyernmost. Personally, I find the new parts of new Epcot to be a mishmash of meh. World Showcase has yet to be molested.
 

twebber55

Well-Known Member
Education can however be made WORSE by politicians intervening which is exactly what we see happening today.

I can do fairly complex math in my head, Today's kids need a calculator to make change from a dollar basic SKILLS are not being taught or being taught very poorly. My great grandmother who attended a 1 room school on the Hungarian plains could do math in her head.

But the schools will spend WEEKS on why we should recycle (it should be obvious to any thinking being WHY) use curly lightbulbs etc, Basic skills like math and english who cares about those.

I was visiting a school in the Netherlands and the kids are learning Dutch/German/French/English/Chinese in the FIRST GRADE! and it's ALL the kids in the class learning ALL the named languages.

We can go rah-rah American Schools the reality is we suck at education here.
well I agree in theory but if we suck so bad why do these kids from all over the world still come here for college.... also when a lot of these kids throughout the world get filtered out by age 12 and only their top students actually go the AP/college route where as we force all of our kids to take the ACT and go to college...again this is just my opinion (someone with two educational degrees and 18 years experience) but the educational experience is superior to what it was 20 years ago but the American home has disintegrated and the value of education is not appreciated
kids are reading far more than they did 20 years ago...I know I didn't have several books to read for summer reading like kids do today...again most of what I say is anecdotal but still from a professional point of view
anyways you make great points
 

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