The Spirited Seventh Heaven ...

[Animaniac93-98]

you've got at least one full Justice League film in there, probably two, Man of Steel II, very likely a Wonder Woman - that's three or four right there.

One small correction, the nine titles exclude two "event" films which will probably be Justice Leagues.

I still think it would be weird if they have Flash/Arrow on TV and the big screen at the same time, but with different actors. Maybe they just won't have them in the movies, but in that case again, it would still be odd not to have Flash in the JL.

It's nice to see DC willing to put out so much, but I don't see it all working together like it did for Marvel. MoS did nothing to set up or suggest a borader universe and piling the rest on so quickly might backfire if audiences don't buy into the first few titles.

 

[stevehousse]

One small correction, the nine titles exclude two "event" films which will probably be Justice Leagues.

I still think it would be weird if they have Flash/Arrow on TV and the big screen at the same time, but with different actors.

I have read 2 different stories about the Event films. They are either Justice League movies or the HP spin off movies...

 

[Animaniac93-98]

I have read 2 different stories about the Event films. They are either Justice League movies or the HP spin off movies...

That could be true too. I guess we'll find out soon enough.

 

[Goofyernmost]

Disney was well aware some pieces would not sell well if at all and that was considered acceptable as part of the show. So yes, there very much were pieces that it was known would be more of a museum display than merchandise. Do you really think they expected to sell many cars at Main Street Motors?

I didn't even know about the auto sales, but, that was someone elses investment. I'll bet that Disney didn't have a nickel invested in that. It was the main catalyst behind the sponsorship idea. Exposure was the key word. Exposure leading to sales. It that didn't happen the display stopped.

To answer your question, no I didn't expect people would buy a car while at a theme park, but, a car is not art work or expensive, unusual trinkets. If they didn't produce sales for someone, they didn't stay. That means that to keep it up Disney would have had to put their own money into displays that the majority just glance at, if they do that much, and walk on by.

I never said that I liked it, but, I do pull my head out of the sand long enough to understand what a theme park is there for. It's not an action of sainthood, it is an establishment that might have enough appeal to encourage people to spend money. No one ever went there specifically because there were some "different" items to look at in the unique shops, they went for the entertainment and while there, were exposed to other things. Those other things were obviously important to some people, but, not enough to make the continued cost to maintain that atmosphere worthwhile. If people want something like that to exist, they have to support it by buying the stuff that is sold there. They don't put price tags on stuff just for something to do.

 

[Jeffxz]

Comparing 30k daily ridership of HE seems normal, 15k each way I would assume. I'm not doubting that, especially when rides like Haunted Mansion pulls 40k/day. I sincerely doubt that all 30K are unique whereas DAK's 27k would be a "first park of the day" guest.

@PhotoDave219, this question isn't a criticism directed towards you, I'm just quoting you because this the question popped into my mind while reading your post.


Do we have any real confirmation that the TEA attendance numbers are based on the "First -Click" metric?

I realize that internally for accounting purposes Disney counts an multi-park admission pass as being redeemed on the first click of the day, but I have never seen any reference that states the TEA numbers are measured in the same way.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I didn't even know about the auto sales, but, that was someone elses investment. I'll bet that Disney didn't have a nickel invested in that. It was the main catalyst behind the sponsorship idea. Exposure was the key word. Exposure leading to sales. It that didn't happen the display stopped.

To answer your question, no I didn't expect people would buy a car while at a theme park, but, a car is not art work or expensive, unusual trinkets. If they didn't produce sales for someone, they didn't stay. That means that to keep it up Disney would have had to put their own money into displays that the majority just glance at, if they do that much, and walk on by.

I never said that I liked it, but, I do pull my head out of the sand long enough to understand what a theme park is there for. It's not an action of sainthood, it is an establishment that might have enough appeal to encourage people to spend money. No one ever went there specifically because there were some "different" items to look at in the unique shops, they went for the entertainment and while there, were exposed to other things. Those other things were obviously important to some people, but, not enough to make the continued cost to maintain that atmosphere worthwhile. If people want something like that to exist, they have to support it by buying the stuff that is sold there. They don't put price tags on stuff just for something to do.

You're still ignoring everything prior to Paul Pressler when there were shops specifically dedicated to being more about looking at items than as hard retail space.

Just look at what Eddie Sotto said about Main Street, USA at Disneyland Paris, the one he designed.

Main Street was much more of a museum than a retail mall.

 

[ford91exploder]

I didn't even know about the auto sales, but, that was someone elses investment. I'll bet that Disney didn't have a nickel invested in that. It was the main catalyst behind the sponsorship idea. Exposure was the key word. Exposure leading to sales. It that didn't happen the display stopped.

To answer your question, no I didn't expect people would buy a car while at a theme park, but, a car is not art work or expensive, unusual trinkets. If they didn't produce sales for someone, they didn't stay. That means that to keep it up Disney would have had to put their own money into displays that the majority just glance at, if they do that much, and walk on by.

I never said that I liked it, but, I do pull my head out of the sand long enough to understand what a theme park is there for. It's not an action of sainthood, it is an establishment that might have enough appeal to encourage people to spend money. No one ever went there specifically because there were some "different" items to look at in the unique shops, they went for the entertainment and while there, were exposed to other things. Those other things were obviously important to some people, but, not enough to make the continued cost to maintain that atmosphere worthwhile. If people want something like that to exist, they have to support it by buying the stuff that is sold there. They don't put price tags on stuff just for something to do.

The Disney parks USED to be differentiated from a traveling carnival by their attention to detail and theming of which merchandise is a KEY component, Example the long departed antique store in New Orleans Square and the Magic Shop on Main St. Both of these did not sell a great deal of merchandise but they were a part of the ATMOSPHERE.

With the attitude displayed in your post why not just sell WDW to Six Flags and call it Six Flags Orlando because hey anything that does not generate a short term profit is useless because parks are not 'Museums' and real customer service is so last century.

 

[tahqa]

Doing the math, 8 dispatches an hour gets them a total THRC of 2688; I'd wager they've been hitting 2,500 on a regular basis, which translates to a daily ridership of well over 30k. TEA/AECOM estimated DAK's 2013 attendance at 10.198 mil, which is a daily average of just under 27k.

The estimated average attendance in 2013 for IoA was about 22k and for USF was about 19k. So by your logic HE is outdrawing both IoA and USF as well. It's still a silly number and has no real meaning except to raise eyebrows.

 

[Goofyernmost]

You're still ignoring everything prior to Paul Pressler when there were shops specifically dedicated to being more about looking at items than as hard retail space.

And you are still ignoring why they were there, not so people can look at them, but, the fact that someone, be it Disney or an independent, was motivated by making money on those items. In that process it added atmosphere to the area. Win - Win! Then when there were no real profit in all that space, if it was independent it became a Win for Disney and a big time Lose for the vender. If Disney supported the merchandise then it was a Win for Disney and a Lose for Disney. One canceled the other out so therefore, it is no more. There are a lot of vocal complaints about it, but, I don't think that they have lost very many people from going to the parks with or without them.

Nothing about that appealed to me. I understand that many people do, but, that has never been my focus when entering a theme park. I think that DL locals are more inclined to spend time looking through that kind of stuff. People that have traveled a great distance do not have the luxury of time to casually check none entertainment venues out, much less, buy stuff that has to be shipped back someplace. Once Disney became a national destination, the significance of all that went away. It became nothing more then a place that required a lot of dusting.

 

[71jason]

I'm saying an assertion that outrageous needs to be backed up.

Not outrageous at all. AK pulling 19k on a good day this Summer. Let's call HE 20k to keep the math easy.

Effectively two E-ticket rides, one from IoA, one from US, so cut that in half--10k ride either direction. (I agree most people riding one way or going to ride back eventually.) Divide that by 14 hours, with early open, 8 am - 10 pm. LESS THAN 1,000 GUESTS/HOUR.

As was mentioned earlier, PotC and HM can pull close to triple that if you don't bog them down with FastPass.

The real take-away? Universal is relatively busy--whether or not up to projections I don't know, tho I tend to doubt from the unused queue space and cheap rates at Cabana Bay. EPCOT and AK and Sea World are noticeably slow this Summer. DHS is surprisingly not as dead as it should be. To paraphrase Mike S, build new attractions, get more guests, even in a slow Summer. Or just be MK.

 

[Goofyernmost]

The Disney parks USED to be differentiated from a traveling carnival by their attention to detail and theming of which merchandise is a KEY component, Example the long departed antique store in New Orleans Square and the Magic Shop on Main St. Both of these did not sell a great deal of merchandise but they were a part of the ATMOSPHERE.

With the attitude displayed in your post why not just sell WDW to Six Flags and call it Six Flags Orlando because hey anything that does not generate a short term profit is useless because parks are not 'Museums' and real customer service is so last century.

If that is what you got from what I said, then there is no need of continuing this discussion. Either I am not capable of making my point, or others are not able to or willing to understand how real life works. Obvious ATMOSPHERE is important, but atmosphere that is mostly ignored is wasted space. Main street facade is ATMOSPHERE, What's behind the doors is only important if it excites the viewer and if they even have the time to check it out. If it's gone now, it's because what was inside didn't matter to the majority of the guests. Proven out by the number of people that still go to the parks on a daily basis.

 

[lazyboy97o]

And you are still ignoring why they were there, not so people can look at them, but, the fact that someone, be it Disney or an independent, was motivated by making money on those items. In that process it added atmosphere to the area. Win - Win! Then when there were no real profit in all that space, if it was independent it became a Win for Disney and a big time Lose for the vender. If Disney supported the merchandise then it was a Win for Disney and a Lose for Disney. One canceled the other out so therefore, it is no more. There are a lot of vocal complaints about it, but, I don't think that they have lost very many people from going to the parks with or without them.

Nothing about that appealed to me. I understand that many people do, but, that has never been my focus when entering a theme park. I think that DL locals are more inclined to spend time looking through that kind of stuff. People that have traveled a great distance do not have the luxury of time to casually check none entertainment venues out, much less, buy stuff that has to be shipped back someplace. Once Disney became a national destination, the significance of all that went away. It became nothing more then a place that required a lot of dusting.

I am not ignoring why they were there, because Disney repeatedly boasted about them being part of the show, just like so many of the aspects that do not directly generate revenue but still made for the complete Disney experience. The showcase merchandise was only removed after Paul Pressler changed the business model to the one seen at malls. These are all changes that took place in the mid-to-late 1990s, well after Disney was a global vacation designation.

If that is what you got from what I said, then there is no need of continuing this discussion. Either I am not capable of making my point, or others are not able to or willing to understand how real life works. Obvious ATMOSPHERE is important, but atmosphere that is mostly ignored is wasted space. Main street facade is ATMOSPHERE, What's behind the doors is only important if it excites the viewer and if they even have the time to check it out. If it's gone now, it's because what was inside didn't matter to the majority of the guests. Proven out by the number of people that still go there on a daily basis.

The spaces were not widely ignored. They just failed to meet new standards of sales that were indiscriminately based only on square footage. The change in evaluation caused the showcase shops to increase sales, but only by taking those sales from elsewhere. The total sales did not improve, they were just more evenly spread around.

 

[71jason]

I believe that the hourly capacity of Kilimanjaro Safaris can be higher than both sides of Hogwarts Express.

Don't doubt it, but with less than 19,000 guests a day, not sure it needs that much capacity.

 

[71jason]

Doing the math, 8 dispatches an hour gets them a total THRC of 2688; I'd wager they've been hitting 2,500 on a regular basis, which translates to a daily ridership of well over 30k. TEA/AECOM estimated DAK's 2013 attendance at 10.198 mil, which is a daily average of just under 27k.

Been a fan for years, so please consider it constructive criticism when I say the TEA numbers are meaningless. Heard from two sources AK is running 19k on a good day this Summer. It's not that busy.

 

[ford91exploder]

You're still ignoring everything prior to Paul Pressler when there were shops specifically dedicated to being more about looking at items than as hard retail space.

Just look at what Eddie Sotto said about Main Street, USA at Disneyland Paris, the one he designed.

And it was BETTER that way as Main Street was an attraction not simply a shopping venue for cheap merchandise which I can find ANYWHERE,

I cannot necessarily see a glassblower or a crystal engraver at work or even the 3D laser imager which USED to be at Imageworks at EPCOT which is not something you see everyday even in my field at the local mall.

And yes I HAVE purchased some of the no longer available higher end merchandise which Walt and those who followed his philosophy placed there more as an example of what could be done and in the interests of customer service made it available for sale as one does not say NO to a potential customer. If a Display piece was $25,000 and a customer wanted it - well they got it Disney got two things in that case the customer's money and the customer was happy. Most places would simply say that piece is not for sale.

 

[ford91exploder]

I am not ignoring why they were they, because Disney repeatedly boasted about them being part of the show, just like so many of the aspects that do not directly generate revenue but still made for the complete Disney experience. The showcase merchandise was only removed after Paul Pressler changed the business model to the one seen at malls. These are all changes that took place in the mid-to-late 1990s, well after Disney was a global vacation designation.


The spaces were not widely ignored. They just failed to meet new standards of sales that were indiscriminately based only on square footage. The change in evaluation caused the showcase shops to increase sales, but only by taking those sales from elsewhere. The total sales did not improve, they were just more evenly spread around.

Precisely - now all merchandise space must sell X dollars per square foot,

Perhaps I should modify my proposal and lease the attractions to Six Flags and the retail space to Simon or General Growth Group for Triple Net and a percentage of the profits and the food service to Aramark for a franchise fee and 40% of the net

After all no one cares about atmosphere or service anymore correct???. So lets run WDW as a BUSINESS.

 

[twebber55]

Not outrageous at all. AK pulling 19k on a good day this Summer. Let's call HE 20k to keep the math easy.

Effectively two E-ticket rides, one from IoA, one from US, so cut that in half--10k ride either direction. (I agree most people riding one way or going to ride back eventually.) Divide that by 14 hours, with early open, 8 am - 10 pm. LESS THAN 1,000 GUESTS/HOUR.

As was mentioned earlier, PotC and HM can pull close to triple that if you don't bog them down with FastPass.

The real take-away? Universal is relatively busy--whether or not up to projections I don't know, tho I tend to doubt from the unused queue space and cheap rates at Cabana Bay. EPCOT and AK and Sea World are noticeably slow this Summer. DHS is surprisingly not as dead as it should be. To paraphrase Mike S, build new attractions, get more guests, even in a slow Summer. Or just be MK.

is DAK really only pulling 19000? wow thats low...when i was there in June it felt pretty light in terms of crowds... and that was before the goofy Frozen stuff

 

[danlb_2000]

@PhotoDave219, this question isn't a criticism directed towards you, I'm just quoting you because this the question popped into my mind while reading your post.


Do we have any real confirmation that the TEA attendance numbers are based on the "First -Click" metric?

I realize that internally for accounting purposes Disney counts an multi-park admission pass as being redeemed on the first click of the day, but I have never seen any reference that states the TEA numbers are measured in the same way.

TEA doesn't actually count people going into the parks. If the theme park companies don't provide actual numbers, which Disney doesn't, the TEA uses various methods to figure out the estimated attendance.

 

[Jeffxz]

TEA doesn't actually count people going into the parks. If the theme park companies don't provide actual numbers, which Disney doesn't, the TEA uses various methods to figure out the estimated attendance.

Understood, but the question is about how they estimate attendance. Do they estimate MK attendance based on how many total unique visitors entered the MK that day or do they estimate how many unique visitors entered the MK as the first Disney park for that day?

I realize the accuracy of the TEA numbers are questionable, but they are the best publicly available source of info and they are quoted quite often around here. I was just curious as to the method used to reach the estimates.

 

[EPCOTCenterLover]

Re DLR and Star Wars buildout in Tomorrowland- there's not a single attraction in all of Tomorrowland that I would really truly miss. The closest is Space Mountain, which could easily be reworked. If they have to get rid of all of them and start from scratch, I say go for it.