The Spirited Back Nine ...

[hopemax]

No - it is pointing out where you have dead weight and under performing attractions. Why should I build more attractions if many are being passed over to start? The point being... build out parks that people are having fun in before deciding yet another park is the solution. Stop trying to funnel your entire property into a single park every night because your other existing parks and all their overhead can't function successfully for 16hrs a day.

I think some of what they are doing with FP+ is an attempt to guide people in this direction. Adding things like shows/parades/fireworks and meet and greets to the offerings is attempting to put those things on par with rides. I think if they really wanted to do this right they would need more meaningful diversions, but for some people those offerings are worth using a FP on.

One of the lines of thought that has run through my brain...

From a 1979 ticket book sold listing from Ebay.

E-tickets.
Jungle Cruise, Pirates of the Caribbean, Country Bears, Haunted Mansion, Hall of Presidents, Small World, 20,000 Leagues, Space Mountain
Big Thunder* (opened Sept 1979)

D tickets
Mickey Mouse Revue, Tropical Serenade, Riverboats, Tom Sawyer Island, Skyway, Mission to Mars, WEDway PeopleMover,Starjets

16 attractions, that if put together would make a very full day. And I'm guessing that guests, at that time, would rate all of them as "worth your time." And attendance was 13.8 million That should have lead to a pretty good "guests willing to distribute themselves around the park all on their own whims."

Go through that list today. Bears and Hall of Presidents get downgraded out by many guests. The rest of the first list gets split into two groups. I would guess more guests in 2014 would rate Space/BTMM a tier above Pirates/HM/Small World/Jungle Cruise...still worthwhile but "less" than guests in 1979 would have viewed them, so the way guests distribute themselves to those rides is now Tier 1 first, then if there is time Tier 2. 20K is now Mermaid, which I'd guess still makes the cut as worthwhile. Second list, which were the D's...Revue is now Philharmagic, probably stays, Mission to Mars is Stitch, downgraded out. Tiki Room, Riverboat, Tom Sawyer Island, PeopleMover, Starjets...all downgraded out. Skyway, removed.

The way people react, Peter Pan has probably upgraded itself on people's "must do" list. Splash is definitely a new addition to the must do list. But what else: Carpets - no, Barnstormer -no, Monsters - eh, but I didn't count If you Had Wings anywhere since it was free, so a wash, Mine Train, based on guest distribution, yes.

So we're left with: Splash, Space, BTMRR, Mine Train (maybe temporary?)...gap... HM, PotC, Small World, JC, Peter Pan..small gap.. Philharmagic, Mermaid. 11 attractions, a decrease of 5 "Crowd attracting attractions" but attendance has increased by 5 million. That's going the wrong way.

On our trip to Universal, I found myself going through their list. I can quite happily experience: MM, Shrek, RRR, Mummy, Transformers, Gringotts, MIB, Simpsons, ET, Terminator and feet like I saw some very good (D/Es). Or at the other park Hulk, Spiderman, Dudley, Bilge Rafts, Jurassic Park, FJ, Dragon Challengex2, Poseidon's Fury (barely, think more Philharmagic). And while maybe Seuss Landing doesn't have an individual attraction I'd rank that high, as a whole land it works really well, and I would never skip it.

Having 13.8 million people spread out among 16 "crowd attractors" (1979 Disney) or 8 million among 11 attractions (USO), or 7 million among 9+1 (IOA) works a heck of a lot better than trying to funnel 18.5 million people though 4 + 5 + 2 "crowd attractors." MK may have the best set of attractions of the parks, but compared to how many "crowd attractors vs attendance" in 1979 compared to now, it has by far not kept up the pace. FP+ may be doing the job of pushing things like Pirates and HM back to the very top of the list, for current guests, but I don't think they're happy about it. MK probably needs to have 20 crowd attracting, crowd eating attractions not 11. And M&G's are not high enough capacity to compensate. And neither will be single entertainment performances like parades.

 

[GoofGoof]

One of the lines of thought that has run through my brain...

From a 1979 ticket book sold listing from Ebay.

E-tickets.
Jungle Cruise, Pirates of the Caribbean, Country Bears, Haunted Mansion, Hall of Presidents, Small World, 20,000 Leagues, Space Mountain
Big Thunder* (opened Sept 1979)

D tickets
Mickey Mouse Revue, Tropical Serenade, Riverboats, Tom Sawyer Island, Skyway, Mission to Mars, WEDway PeopleMover,Starjets

16 attractions, that if put together would make a very full day. And I'm guessing that guests, at that time, would rate all of them as "worth your time." And attendance was 13.8 million That should have lead to a pretty good "guests willing to distribute themselves around the park all on their own whims."

Go through that list today. Bears and Hall of Presidents get downgraded out by many guests. The rest of the first list gets split into two groups. I would guess more guests in 2014 would rate Space/BTMM a tier above Pirates/HM/Small World/Jungle Cruise...still worthwhile but "less" than guests in 1979 would have viewed them, so the way guests distribute themselves to those rides is now Tier 1 first, then if there is time Tier 2. 20K is now Mermaid, which I'd guess still makes the cut as worthwhile. Second list, which were the D's...Revue is now Philharmagic, probably stays, Mission to Mars is Stitch, downgraded out. Tiki Room, Riverboat, Tom Sawyer Island, PeopleMover, Starjets...all downgraded out. Skyway, removed.

The way people react, Peter Pan has probably upgraded itself on people's "must do" list. Splash is definitely a new addition to the must do list. But what else: Carpets - no, Barnstormer -no, Monsters - eh, but I didn't count If you Had Wings anywhere since it was free, so a wash, Mine Train, based on guest distribution, yes.

So we're left with: Splash, Space, BTMRR, Mine Train (maybe temporary?)...gap... HM, PotC, Small World, JC, Peter Pan..small gap.. Philharmagic, Mermaid. 11 attractions, a decrease of 5 "Crowd attracting attractions" but attendance has increased by 5 million. That's going the wrong way.

On our trip to Universal, I found myself going through their list. I can quite happily experience: MM, Shrek, RRR, Mummy, Transformers, Gringotts, MIB, Simpsons, ET, Terminator and feet like I saw some very good (D/Es). Or at the other park Hulk, Spiderman, Dudley, Bilge Rafts, Jurassic Park, FJ, Dragon Challengex2, Poseidon's Fury (barely, think more Philharmagic). And while maybe Seuss Landing doesn't have an individual attraction I'd rank that high, as a whole land it works really well, and I would never skip it.

Having 13.8 million people spread out among 16 "crowd attractors" (1979 Disney) or 8 million among 11 attractions (USO), or 7 million among 9+1 (IOA) works a heck of a lot better than trying to funnel 18.5 million people though 4 + 5 + 2 "crowd attractors." MK may have the best set of attractions of the parks, but compared to how many "crowd attractors vs attendance" in 1979 compared to now, it has by far not kept up the pace. FP+ may be doing the job of pushing things like Pirates and HM back to the very top of the list, for current guests, but I don't think they're happy about it. MK probably needs to have 20 crowd attracting, crowd eating attractions not 11. And M&G's are not high enough capacity to compensate. And neither will be single entertainment performances like parades.

I think HM and Pirates are just as popular today. They don't get huge lines because of the capacity, but I'd definitely lump them in with the mountains.

 

[flynnibus]

I honestly think your cruise thing is flawed.
If the cruises are at 100% most of the time in a single area, you dont "expand" elsewhere. You ADD another ship.
Thats what Disney did by adding the Dream and Fantasy. (and 2 more rumored on the way).
Even other cruise companies are building more.

that's not even the same conversation..

the comment was about expanding what you are doing vs just adding more of the same. Like adding cruising instead of just adding yet another theme park.

 

[Cesar R M]

Disney is actually WAY behind in the cruise industry as far as number of ships. The quality of the ships are excellent, but most cruise companies have an incredible line-up of ships. Disney has been fairly cautious in building ships compared to other companies. Hell, they waited 10+ years to build the Dream/Fantasy.

better cautious than end with useless ships.
besides, Disney seems to have their target demographic captivated.
the ratting of their cruises (specially the fantasy) is way above any other ship.
I wonder if the Anthem and Quantum would get better scores...

 

[Cesar R M]

that's not even the same conversation..

the comment was about expanding what you are doing vs just adding more of the same. Like adding cruising instead of just adding yet another theme park.

it seems you're the one not getting the analogy.

 

[flynnibus]

it seems you're the one not getting the analogy.

The point was about adding new types of businesses... vs expanding WITHIN a business. You talk about how Disney expands WITHIN the cruise space... while I'm talking about them even GETTING INTO the cruise business. Your whole 'same area' comment is goofy... because cruise companies also simply MOVE ships to stimulate demand or increase revenue. But I'm talking BEFORE they were in the cruise biz to start with.

 

[RSoxNo1]

No.... CBJ just got snipped. Like a briss.

It went from CBJ to CBJ Vacation Hoedown and then back to the original CBJ... then years later it got snipped.

 

[Mike S]

It went from CBJ to CBJ Vacation Hoedown and then back to the original CBJ... then years later it got snipped.

I thought those overlays were seasonal?

 

[bhg469]

I think HM and Pirates are just as popular today. They don't get huge lines because of the capacity, but I'd definitely lump them in with the mountains.

My trip isn't complete without a ride through hm. Even the one time I made a day trip to wdw while I was in FL for work, HM is one of the only MK rides that I went on by myself.

 

[PhotoDave219]

It went from CBJ to CBJ Vacation Hoedown and then back to the original CBJ... then years later it got snipped.

But did they tear the building down and then bring it back?

 

[pax_65]

Some old attractions are beloved by Disney fans as "classics" even though they aren't great attractions by today's standards. I feel this way about Carousel of Progress. Demand should ultimately be the judge. Peter Pan always appears MOBBED - I realize part of this is capacity issues but still, it's bringing in a good crowd. Old attractions that don't have good demand should either be rehabbed/upgraded (like I wish they'd do with CoP) or replaced with better attractions. An easy example, Stitch is neither beloved nor popular, so let's do something way better with that space.

 

[ford91exploder]

Well, Down at the world for on the trip I was going to cancel, But through the miracle of Disney's faulty IT the trip was never cancelled. So went to Universal to see the Mannheim Steamroller concert (one of my favorites) and I've paid for premium tickets at other venues to see them

So this was first trip to UNI in 11 years, I was blown away , Cast Members who actually SMILED and spoke and understood ENGLISH as a first or strong second language, Went to the Hard Rock cafe gave our name and waited 25 minutes on a busy night and got a table had an awesome waiter Jerry by name and we had a great dinner experience and I DID NOT NEED TO RESERVE 6 bloody months in advance.

Short answer was DW and I left UNI with premium AP's which INCLUDE FOTL after 4PM and valet parking and they were less than HALF of the cost of Disney's similar and you can pay monthly and they AUTOMATICALLY renew none of the spend half an hour with Member Services trying to renew passes on the phone, And we Will be back, Staying at BLT in grand villa and unfortunately maintenance is absolutlely horrible - laminate torn in strips from one of the vanities and some careless repairs where the carpenters did not even TRY to match the stain colors.

This level of maintenance in the premier rooms is absolutely unacceptable and I have complained both in writing and email.

But what I saw at UNI is they worked very hard to make things seamless and eliminate 'resistance' there are no artificial hoops to jump through at UNI like there are at WDW.

And Yes neither DW's or my MDE experience accounts are working AGAIN this trip, For crying out loud what the H--- is wrong with WDW IT operations. So no FP for us this trip, We probably will be making good use of the UNI passes this trip as I refuse to do the help desk thing AGAIN this trip. We will spend a couple of days at AK as it's our favorite and there is much to see and do there. We can spend hours just watching the tigers.

 

[PhotoDave219]

So… How long before universal starts the marketing campaign of "you don't need a reservation"?

 

[Mike S]

Well, Down at the world for on the trip I was going to cancel, But through the miracle of Disney's faulty IT the trip was never cancelled. So went to Universal to see the Mannheim Steamroller concert (one of my favorites) and I've paid for premium tickets at other venues to see them

So this was first trip to UNI in 11 years, I was blown away , Cast Members who actually SMILED and spoke and understood ENGLISH as a first or strong second language, Went to the Hard Rock cafe gave our name and waited 25 minutes on a busy night and got a table had an awesome waiter Jerry by name and we had a great dinner experience and I DID NOT NEED TO RESERVE 6 bloody months in advance.

Short answer was DW and I left UNI with premium AP's which INCLUDE FOTL after 4PM and valet parking and they were less than HALF of the cost of Disney's similar and you can pay monthly and they AUTOMATICALLY renew none of the spend half an hour with Member Services trying to renew passes on the phone, And we Will be back, Staying at BLT in grand villa and unfortunately maintenance is absolutlely horrible - laminate torn in strips from one of the vanities and some careless repairs where the carpenters did not even TRY to match the stain colors.

This level of maintenance in the premier rooms is absolutely unacceptable and I have complained both in writing and email.

But what I saw at UNI is they worked very hard to make things seamless and eliminate 'resistance' there are no artificial hoops to jump through at UNI like there are at WDW.

And Yes neither DW's or my MDE experience accounts are working AGAIN this trip, For crying out loud what the H--- is wrong with WDW IT operations. So no FP for us this trip, We probably will be making good use of the UNI passes this trip as I refuse to do the help desk thing AGAIN this trip. We will spend a couple of days at AK as it's our favorite and there is much to see and do there. We can spend hours just watching the tigers.

Sad to hear MDE still seems to hate you. How was Diagon Alley? Was Weasley lifting his hat?

 

[wogwog]

People watching can sometimes BE an attraction, LOL

Soon people watching will be added as a FP selection.

 

[JediMasterMatt]

Some good conversation here (especially between flynibus & ParentsOf4).

The sad truth is that there is better and more logical discussion going on here in this forum about the issues facing WDW and the ways out of this mess than there is going on in Orlando or Burbank.

We all know math is hard; but, the issue for all of us who are fans of the place is that supply is getting trampled by demand. Too many people and they've already decided, there is only a few things they want to do while they are there. No matter how hard FP+ may try, you can't make guests going to attractions they already decided they don't want to experience become your Golden Goose that will fix the capacity woes.

Those that are smart around here also know that there isn't really any urgency for WDW management to change their ways as long as the profits keep coming in.

I certainly hope that when change comes (Pixar expansion, Pandora, Star Wars) that it is done the right way. Expansion that adds tangible capacity and not just gate drawing magnets. The last things we need as fans is to take the MK's problems and simply replicate them in 3 other parks.

With FP+ taking people out of lines, the place needs now more than ever - more "stuff" to pull the guests off the streets. Opening another gate with the same problems (of limited capacity) would only compound the long term problems.

It's the mindset that has to change first.

 

[PhotoDave219]

Sad to hear MDE still seems to hate you. How was Diagon Alley? Was Weasley lifting his hat?

It's like the yeti… they will put a strobe light on it soon enough

 

[RSoxNo1]

But did they tear the building down and then bring it back?

No. Another similar situation could be Main Street Electrical Parade.

 

[PhotoDave219]

No. Another similar situation could be Main Street Electrical Parade.

I'm not sure how a parade going to California is comparable to a building being torn down…
My point Timmy is that you're splitting hairs beyond belief. People are suggesting that we bring back Epcot attractions where the buildings aren't even standing anymore. Those are long, long, long gone and never to return.

 

[RSoxNo1]

I'm not sure how a parade going to California is comparable to a building being torn down…
My point Timmy is that you're splitting hairs beyond belief. People are suggesting that we bring back Epcot attractions where the buildings aren't even standing anymore. Those are long, long, long gone and never to return.

"Timmy"... really?

I think the only thing that has a remote chance of returning would be a version of the original Imagination. Sure, if I was in charge I'd push for a Horizons redux that would include an updated Carousel of Progress as well, but that's not realistic. Unfortunately, I think Epcot could be in trouble relative to DAK and DHS. I don't think Frozen, Soarin' 2.0 and Illuminations upgrades are enough for that park. I think they very well may be deliberately hamstringing Tom Fitzgerald as a convenient way to get him out the door.