The Spirited 8th Wonder (WDW's Future & You!)

[John]

I just want to take a time out here.....seriously. I am not a numbers guy ( unless it is on a measuring tape). But @ParentsOf4 has a unique way of explaining numbers (Disney centric) in a way I totally understand and appreciate that. Thanks buddy!

So what about that DVC? The first 30 some odd pages we seemed to have stayed on course, but then we got derailed as always. Atleast I havnt heard the "U" word mentioned yet....so that is a positive sign.

 

[GoofGoof]

Since Iger took charge, there has been one resort opened: AOA. I believe you and I previously discussed why this happened, at least partially because it was a half-completed facility in need of serious work to prevent further decay.

DVCs? I think one of the primary topics of this thread is to lament Disney's obsession with DVCs in recent years, whose "investments" are tied directly to immediately recoverable revenue. Ditto with shops & restaurants, such as Disney Springs.

Beyond that, the small improvements you mention also happened under previous Disney management, often with little fanfare because they were considered basic maintenance of the of the facility.

There's a reason I wrote "(vs. required FF&E and capital maintenance)" in my previous post.

Really, the money returned back into the theme parks for true improvements has been minimal.

The investments under Iger have largely been low risk or virtually risk free. The Marvel acquisition was a little more of a risk, but Lucas Films was a no brainer. On the parks front getting the Chinese govt to front a large portion of the new park there lowers risk. Adding cruise ships was virtually risk free since the demand was so high. DVC is very low risk and virtually risk free if the owners don't finance. It's a safe play. Major park expansions or new cash resorts are higher risk with less predictable and measurable returns. The two main exceptions under Iger were DCA 2.0 and Nextgen. DCA 2.0 took stones. The economy wasn't great when the project started. It could have easily been delayed or even shelved. Nextgen took even bigger stones. It was completely out of character to green light such an uncertain project and then follow through with funding it. Someone really sold Iger on that one.

I'm throwing on my rose colored glasses for a minute. FLE was a solid investment which appears to be successful. Pandora and AK nighttime is underway and has the potential to be a big upgrade at that park. If Iger is risk adverse he won't likely green light too many higher risk projects at WDW at the same time. I would like to see more love for DHS and EPCOT too. Adding more DVC won't hurt the chances of more park expansions since DVC is low risk. DVC will prop up the P&R numbers. I'm not naive enough to think that all of the profits from selling more DVC will be plowed back into P&R, but if they stopped selling DVC they would have to make up for those lost profits somehow. That somehow would likely be more cost cutting.

 

[SpaceMountain77]

That is what they are indeed, well-said. In the case of BCV/BWV/BLT, the great location helps you overlook a lot.

We have started staying at other timeshare resorts in Orlando and it's the same thing really. But paying a lot less helps with satisfaction.

Agreed. For some resorts, like BCV, BWV and BLT, convenience helps to overshadow villa wear.

My BCV studio was worn and dated. After my stay, I joked that DVC truly captured the spirit of a late 1800's beach side resort by going all the way and sourcing furniture from the turn of the 20th century. The villas are not worn, they have the character of over 100 years of history.

 

[flynnibus]

Since Iger took charge, there has been one resort opened: AOA. I believe you and I previously discussed why this happened, at least partially because it was a half-completed facility in need of serious work to prevent further decay.

DVCs? I think one of the primary topics of this thread is to lament Disney's obsession with DVCs in recent years, whose "investments" are tied directly to immediately recoverable revenue. Ditto with shops & restaurants, such as Disney Springs.

Yet all are significant capital investments.

S
Beyond that, the small improvements you mention also happened under previous Disney management, often with little fanfare because they were considered basic maintenance of the of the facility.

There's a reason I wrote "(vs. required FF&E and capital maintenance)" in my previous post.

overhauling (star tours, sse, test track,etc) are not just the typical modernize show control, lighting, safety, etc and are not maintanence.

New attractions (milf), shows(nemo, castle projection), dining (new locations), parades, etc. no where am I saying this is all the best ever, or even at the rate necessary... But to say they done nothing is disingenuous and 'previous management' is just moving the goal posts.

They are behind the curve... But let's not distort to extenuate the argument.

I argue this is not just semantics because I believe a large part of the problem is the company overextending itself and diluting its efforts.

 

[dhall]

That only works if you care about the long term. Look at the ages of most Disney execs from Iger to Holz to Kalogridis to Crofton etc. Why would they care about the state of WDW in 2024? They'll all be very long gone from the company by then. This is all about making money NOW. Today, tomorrow, this quarter, next. That's about as forward thinking as these folks get.

I wonder if maybe the most realistic thing we could hope for would be for TWDC to spin off P&R as a separate company. TWDC doesn't make any sense right now as a combined entity -- all of the (hate to use this word non-ironically) synergy to be derived from having IP's crossing in-house platforms are being wasted by inappropriate strategies in the film divisions, WDFA, and P&R.

It seems like the (possibly only) parts of the business that are firing successfully are the parts that still have the most independence from Burbank. It's also somewhat true that the parts of the business that are firing successfully are those that are lead by people whose passion is the business that they are in. P&R is lead by folks who rotate in and out as a stopping point on their way to the board room of The Walt Disney (Holding) Company.

Matt Ouimet seems like he is a theme-park lifer -- how much better off would P&R be if Ouimet's career path had been to turn DLR around before running all of P&R for a decade or two. That can't possibly happen with the holding company in place.

 

[71jason]

I'm not sure that using an example of a company that made a decision to knock down a good regional theme park and replace it with an actual shopping mall (that is chock full of outlet-type stores and has had a problem with gang violence) is really making your argument.

TDO chose to knock down a national theme park (albeit one so cutting age that it didn't often get described with that term), then let the land sit empty 6 years before building an actual shopping mall. In both cases, seems kind of dopey in retrospect.

 

[SpaceMountain77]

Do DVC members staying on WDW property get the same perks as regular resort guests staying at WDW?

We are not eligible for the free dining packages.

Honestly, you would be hard pressed to find a DVC member that could clearly articulate DVC perks. There really is nothing over what annual passes and Tables in Wonderland get you.

 

[GoofGoof]

Am I the only person who doesn't care about hotel room vacancy rates or DVC?

Probably the other people read the first post and realized the discussion was about DVC so they left the thread. WDW Magic has tons of threads about everything under the sun related to WDW. Not every thread interests me. I don't feel the need to enter any of the threads about topics I don't care about to let the people there know my feelings, but it's a free country. Whatever floats your boat. Thanks for checking in.

 

[GoofGoof]

We are not eligible for the free dining packages.

Honestly, you would be hard pressed to find a DVC member that could clearly articulate DVC perks. There really is nothing over what annual passes and Tables in Wonderland get you.

Don't forget pool hopping. I have yet to take advantage of it, but if that sort of thing interests you it's available. We also get random discounts on things like boat rentals at the contemporary and certain restaurants for certain meals. Plus the 10% merchandise discount at some stores.

 

[Mike S]

I just want to take a time out here.....seriously. I am not a numbers guy ( unless it is on a measuring tape). But @ParentsOf4 has a unique way of explaining numbers (Disney centric) in a way I totally understand and appreciate that. Thanks buddy!

So what about that DVC? The first 30 some odd pages we seemed to have stayed on course, but then we got derailed as always. Atleast I havnt heard the "U" word mentioned yet....so that is a positive sign.

When I joined this site I hoped I wouldn't have to use the ignore feature but some of these arguments just got tiring. Thanks to this latest derailment my list is up to 3. Ignore is your friend.

 

[PhotoDave219]

Nope...never been in the place....but have walked by it....does that count?....LOL Ok a TGIF's with a bowling ally. I just never had the inclination to go in there. I am glad you enjoy it. Question, by your observations and best guess....whats the guest vs local demo numbers?

The locals (beyond myself & @71jason ) tend to stay away. It was the best thing ever once it opened but they moved into the next shiney object.

The pizza is really good. Bartenders are good, live music is too.

 

[dhall]

This is IMO, but... Pirates is legitimately good. TSMM tech in cool, walkaround set. Buzz, Virtual Jungle Cruise, Space Mountain are OK. There are some lesser diversions that are worth keeping (if they haven't been removed). Put in a couple of attractions more like Pirates, and you've got something. Of course, Disney has to care about DQ. I know it's run down, but the bones of something good are still there. I think it's still worthwhile. Is it worth the $50 or whatever the standalone admission is? No, but 3 of the 4 parks aren't worth their standalone price, either. Most people probably go on WPF&M or an AP.

I'm a little surprised how few of the game concepts have been reproduced in the parks. Aren't arcades less expensive to deploy in the parks as spinners? A lot of the stuff that works in DQ could serve as arcade anchors, interactive queue diversions, or pre/post show elements.

The Buzz Bumpercars mechanism could work fairly well as an alternative to a spinner, serving the same role as Luigi's Flying Tires in Carsland (although probably a lot more reliable, and with better capacity). Using the virtual sword fight mechanism as a big part of a Jedi attraction seems like a no-brainer.

 

[Mr. Moderate]

Am I the only person who doesn't care about hotel room vacancy rates or DVC?

If actually you care about the parks and when you look at the big picture of everything going on with WDW, you should. The high vacancy rates and DVC are part of an ever growing problem that is hurting the operation as a whole. Guests are getting turned off at the high rack rates of the Disney resorts as they should be because the pricing structure WDW uses, isn't even close to being near reality. Same with the rising theme park tickets and when you factor in that there's no real updating or improvement of the parks, but full speed ahead on DVC, anyone with clear thinking can see that company is headed down the wrong path and has been for quite awhile. It's making me realise that maybe in a few years I should sell off my DVC and take a step back or two from my family's love affair with WDW and DLR. As a longtime fan of the parks, I'm concerned about the future and terrible leadership I see coming from Disney's upper management.

 

[dadddio]

TDO chose to knock down a national theme park (albeit one so cutting age that it didn't often get described with that term), then let the land sit empty 6 years before building an actual shopping mall. In both cases, seems kind of dopey in retrospect.

What is this theme park that you are referring to?

 

[SpaceMountain77]

Don't forget pool hopping.

Oh, pool hopping. For us, pool hopping is one of those things that seems like a good idea, we discuss doing it and then never do.

I would like to visit BoardWalk's Luna Park and the feature pools at OKW and SSR, but it is really too much of a hassle if you do not have a car. Last December, on a day that the monorail was down, it took me an hour to get from GF to WL. Please do not ask me how this is possible because I could not explain it myself.

I know I waited at the boat dock for a boat to MK, which stopped first at the Polynesian. I thought a bus to WL would be faster than waiting for another boat, which might have been true, but it still took an hour.

 

[SpaceMountain77]

What is this theme park that you are referring to?

Opryland USA, I believe.

 

[BrerJon]

The future of DTD is quite compelling and I know of no other place like it.

There are *loads* of places like that. Not even leaving Orlando, five minutes down the road, is Pointe Orlando, where you can shop at quality stores, see IMAX movies, visit attractions like Wonderworks or Ripley's, eat at a great selection of highly themed quality restaurants, go to numerous unique nightlife experiences - a comedy club, a blues club, an ice bar... all in one place, without leaving the complex.

That's just one example, I'm sure almost every big city has something similar.

If anyone doubts Springs is going to be basically a smart Outlet mall, just pay a visit to any of Orlando's big malls, look at the huge Brazilian crowds pouring out money there, and you'll see exactly why DS was greenlit - Disney is licking their lips at the thought of keeping those dollars on property.

 

[wdisney9000]

You can't really enjoy the beautiful Florida sunshine or natural lake setting of DTD at MoA now can you?

Sunshine is no different in Fla than Arizona or any other state and a lake setting is nice but no different/better than a mall in the city surrounded by beautiful architecture and skyscrapers. Someone at MoA may enjoy the setting of a WATER PARK or COASTER thats INSIDE the MALL which is pretty awesome.

Disney Springs will be quite unique from anything else out there and I am sure it will keep growing well into the future at WDW.

How is visitng an Apple store or a Harley Davidson shop or eating at a food truck any more unique just because its on Disney property? If anything its worse because you will probly pay more for the same item you could get in you r local mall. The part I bolded is probly what people said about DTD when they refurbed it years ago.

I mention this in regards to the topic of the thread in the sense that it shows some of Disneys financial decisions are defended by irrational viewpoints. Not saying Im right and your wrong, just that math is a universal language and they seem to speak some dialect that they made up just for themselves.

 

[dhall]

...If you keep piling crap on top of brilliance eventually all anyone can see is crap.

... and it doesn't even have to be a big pile -- a thin veneer evenly spread can cover up a lot of brilliance

 

[flynnibus]

I'm a little surprised how few of the game concepts have been reproduced in the parks. Aren't arcades less expensive to deploy in the parks as spinners? A lot of the stuff that works in DQ could serve as arcade anchors, interactive queue diversions, or pre/post show elements.

One word : capacity

That's why they are ill suited for a park like a Disney park