The Spirited 8th Wonder (WDW's Future & You!)

[crispy]

Name one other place like it. Especially after the new work. Disney never claimed they were reinventing the wheel or building another theme park. But they may be creating the greatest entertainment and shopping district in the US. That includes a world-class Cirque show and a Disney Quest which are both popular and already make it unlike any other mall right there.

Have you ever been to a tourist destination anywhere? I mean, you admit you never actually go to WDW, but do you go anywhere? About 10 minutes from my house, I can head to Opry Mills, a large tourist mall, where I can shop, eat at places like Rainforest Café and the Aquarium restaurant, see live entertainment, go the movies including a large IMAX, and hit places like Dave & Busters (not DisneyQuest, but similar). I can then walk to the Grand Ole Opry (not Cirque, but we are talking a different crowd of people) where I can see live entertainment, go on a river cruise on a showboat for dinner and see live entertainment, or visit one with the largest hotels in the world that still actually has waterfalls that work. I am sure most posters here have similar things in their areas especially if they live in a tourist destination.

The only thing unique about Disney Springs is the fact that it's at WDW. It's not really a unique concept. People will visit because they are visiting WDW, not the other way around.

 

[seascape]

There will be lots of additions to the parks well before 2021. The reason has nothing to do with all the complaints here. Disney made a good decision to grow internationally. They have made improvements in Paris and that park is now extremely profitable and when the economy improves over there they will make even more. Shanghai is and will be proven to be a great investment and make others regret they didn't invest more in China. Now that Shanghai is done it's time for Orlando and WDW. That was the plan, is the plan and it will be done. I think DVC resorts are a smart move. I know most people here hate it and don't understand them but that does not mean it's not good for Disney and the parks. I expecially believe the parks benefit. If Disney cares about the continued cash cow they have to know that people coming back year after year will expect improvements and because the DVC is a right to use timeshare that they will take ownership back in 50 years. If you have any faith in Disney then you have to believe they care about this. In just 28 years they will start to regain ownership of the first DVCs. You may think Disney does not care but Wall Street does so the next set of leadership must be able to show wall street that the parks will see continued growth and improvements so they will be able to resell the DVCs. Iger knows this. He also knows he has the chance to place his final mark on WDW. WDW will expand and be great. If you don't have any faith in Disney then just walk away. If you are right and there is no hope then you are wasting your time and efforts. In the mean time I am buying more stock because I know and see what they are doing.

 

[flynnibus]

Vehemently defends? My basic positions in that thread were as follows: Maelstrom isn't as awesome as you guys are claiming AND I think that Frozen is a pretty good match to Norway.

Using that logic... We should replace the American adventure with a tribute to honey boo boo.. It's a good match since the show is set in America and is about American citizens.

Nevermind what the pavilion is actually setup to showcase and celebrate.

Creativity bankrupt is what these concepts are and the blind that rally behind the ideas on the basis of "something is better than nothing"

Some "fans" are just as shortsighted as the execs steering the ship.

If you keep piling crap on top of brilliance eventually all anyone can see is crap.

 

[ParentsOf4]

Do you have the numbers for what has been spent on infrastructure and restorations under Iger? I know they have been playing catch-up after years of neglect by previous management.

In terms of publically available sources, it's best to refer to what CFO Jay Rasulo said about capex in 2011:

Let me start with your CapEx question, and this is one that I get asked often and I will try to give you some perspective on it. Five years ago or so we used to be pretty demonstrative about $1 billion number being an ongoing level without special projects added to it.

You have to remember though that in those five years in the capital projects that we have put in the ground, which each have their own growth strategy, each is filling in different parts of the portfolio, when they are back on board they all need ongoing FF&E and maintenance capital to keep them going.

So I would say that that $1 billion number is low.​

Don't be so sure of "years of neglect by previous management". For the years that I have data, Disney’s 4 lowest years of capital investment as a percentage of P&R revenue all have been under Iger, who took charge in 2005 (only 8 full fiscal years so far). These 4 years were below 2002-2004 investment levels, when WDW was closing hotels and laying off hundreds. Iger's best year of P&R investments as a percentage of P&R revenue is still below the average under Eisner.

If anyone has been neglecting WDW, it has been current Disney management.

 

[Skip]

There will be lots of additions to the parks well before 2021. The reason has nothing to do with all the complaints here. Disney made a good decision to grow internationally. They have made improvements in Paris and that park is now extremely profitable and when the economy improves over there they will make even more. Shanghai is and will be proven to be a great investment and make others regret they didn't invest more in China. Now that Shanghai is done it's time for Orlando and WDW. That was the plan, is the plan and it will be done. I think DVC resorts are a smart move. I know most people here hate it and don't understand them but that does not mean it's not good for Disney and the parks. I expecially believe the parks benefit. If Disney cares about the continued cash cow they have to know that people coming back year after year will expect improvements and because the DVC is a right to use timeshare that they will take ownership back in 50 years. If you have any faith in Disney then you have to believe they care about this. In just 28 years they will start to regain ownership of the first DVCs. You may think Disney does not care but Wall Street does so the next set of leadership must be able to show wall street that the parks will see continued growth and improvements so they will be able to resell the DVCs. Iger knows this. He also knows he has the chance to place his final mark on WDW. WDW will expand and be great. If you don't have any faith in Disney then just walk away. If you are right and there is no hope then you are wasting your time and efforts. In the mean time I am buying more stock because I know and see what they are doing.

You think Disneyland Paris is extremely profitable? What world are you living in? All you're doing is making it clear that you have no idea what you're talking about...

You claim we don't understand DVC? On the contrary, we seem to understand them much better than you do... Disney doesn't care. It's a faceless corporation. You're asking us to faith? You really have made this all a religion.

 

[dadddio]

Have you ever been to a tourist destination anywhere? I mean, you admit you never actually go to WDW, but do you go anywhere? About 10 minutes from my house, I can head to Opry Mills, a large tourist mall, where I can shop, eat at places like Rainforest Café and the Aquarium restaurant, see live entertainment, go the movies including a large IMAX, and hit places like Dave & Busters (not DisneyQuest, but similar). I can then walk to the Grand Ole Opry (not Cirque, but we are talking a different crowd of people) where I can see live entertainment, go on a river cruise on a showboat for dinner and see live entertainment, or visit one with the largest hotels in the world that still actually has waterfalls that work. I am sure most posters here have similar things in their areas especially if they live in a tourist destination.

The only thing unique about Disney Springs is the fact that it's at WDW. It's not really a unique concept. People will visit because they are visiting WDW, not the other way around.

I'm not sure that using an example of a company that made a decision to knock down a good regional theme park and replace it with an actual shopping mall (that is chock full of outlet-type stores and has had a problem with gang violence) is really making your argument.

 

[jt04]

Have you ever been to a tourist destination anywhere? I mean, you admit you never actually go to WDW, but do you go anywhere? About 10 minutes from my house, I can head to Opry Mills, a large tourist mall, where I can shop, eat at places like Rainforest Café and the Aquarium restaurant, see live entertainment, go the movies including a large IMAX, and hit places like Dave & Busters (not DisneyQuest, but similar). I can then walk to the Grand Ole Opry (not Cirque, but we are talking a different crowd of people) where I can see live entertainment, go on a river cruise on a showboat for dinner and see live entertainment, or visit one with the largest hotels in the world that still actually has waterfalls that work. I am sure most posters here have similar things in their areas especially if they live in a tourist destination.

The only thing unique about Disney Springs is the fact that it's at WDW. It's not really a unique concept. People will visit because they are visiting WDW, not the other way around.

I am refering to a single self-contained retail/food/entertainment zone. Not an entire city or downtown district that has been "reimagineered" by the local Chamber of Commerce. Apples/Oranges.

The future of DTD is quite compelling and I know of no other place like it.

 

[wishiwere@wdw]

Staying on the topic of hotel rooms.....

Right now I'm at a courtyard by marriott in suburban Philly. Big room. Big comfy beds. Decent TV & amenities. My point? Far beyond any moderate I've stayed while at WDW. On par with the room at the contemporary. Huge shower - one I won't hit my head in - and things that are slightly above the basics.

Short version: a Moderate at Disney isn't as nice of a room as a Courtyard by Marriott.

Marriott is my preferred chain and while I've stepped back a bit from business travel to enjoy my family, I still put quite a few nights in under the Marriott brand and they are 9 times out of 10 fantastic and almost always better than a value or moderate at Disney. Then there are the full service Marriott's or the JW's that blow Disney away. I guess what I'm getting at is I noticed the decline a long time ago and have seen this sad trend creeping up at WDW.

Full disclosure... I'm also a dvc owner but that was partly out of necessity with having 4 kids. The easiest and cheapest way to stay on property was through DVC. For us at least . I feel like the value was decent but that was partly due to buying at the right time. I would never buy new now and I'm truly saddened by this news even though it could benefit us because the service, amenities, cleanliness, quality will all decline at these affected resorts... Beyond the sucky level it's already at.

 

[crispy]

I'm not sure that using an example of a company that made a decision to knock down a good regional theme park and replace it with an actual shopping mall (that is chock full of outlet-type stores and has had a problem with gang violence) is really making your argument.

Actually, I think it makes it even better. They didn't think that a theme park was their core business and shut it down which, quite frankly, is eerily similar to TDO's mindset. In the years since, they have sold off their hotels to Marriott and are no longer considered an entertainment giant. It's actually pretty sad and may be lesson that needs to be heeded. I personally rarely set foot in the mall (except for when I am training for a half in the winter and become a mall walker/runner), and I think most locals are like me.

 

[John]

Ever hear of a place called Mall of America?......just saying.

 

[ParentsOf4]

These have been resorts, dvcs, shows (like castle show), attractions, transportation expansions (bus depot, alt bus testing), plussing of attractions (not just rehabs), and many more. No they aren't things on the scale of carsland but to talk in extremes like that does not convey an accurate picture.

Since Iger took charge, there has been one resort opened: AOA. I believe you and I previously discussed why this happened, at least partially because it was a half-completed facility in need of serious work to prevent further decay.

DVCs? I think one of the primary topics of this thread is to lament Disney's obsession with DVCs in recent years, whose "investments" are tied directly to immediately recoverable revenue. Ditto with shops & restaurants, such as Disney Springs.

Beyond that, the small improvements you mention also happened under previous Disney management, often with little fanfare because they were considered basic maintenance of the facility.

There's a reason I wrote "(vs. required FF&E and capital maintenance)" in my previous post.

Really, the money returned back into the theme parks for true improvements has been minimal.

 

[crispy]

I am refering to a single self-contained retail/food/entertainment zone. Not an entire city or downtown district that has been "reimagineered" by the local Chamber of Commerce. Apples/Oranges.

The future of DTD is quite compelling and I know of no other place like it.

Um, that is a single, self contained area. You should look it up (or John's much better example of Mall of America).

 

[SpaceMountain77]

Nah, even though there are strong differing opinions, WDWm typically has the saner of the Disney fan crowd (minus a few obvious nuts).

Honestly, I am truly surprised by how much I have been able to say, so far, in this thread. Sharing honest, sincere DVC experiences seems to offend many loyalists. My intent is to be helpful and provide prospective guests and members with the realities of DVC.

If I had posted some of these comments elsewhere, I know people would have replied with comments like, "if you are so unhappy, then you should sell your contracts" and "why did you become a member in the first place."

Again, I am grateful to be a DVC member because membership allows me to visit yearly and stay at a deluxe resort. I acknowledge the fact that not all villas are well maintained, but provide me access to amenities that I could not otherwise afford (e.g., Animal Kingdom Lodge savannah views).

 

[culturenthrills]

Yet it's a STANDARD room Obviously Disney can not demo and start over with properties every decade to keep up with the latest 'new guy on the block' - but the point was to illustrate more contemporary designs and show that Disney's "rehabs" people gush over are at best attempting to keep up with trends.. instead of creating them.

If people want another comparison closer to home for Disney... The Raddison LBV.. which is right next to Crossroads basically (Horrible traffic area tho!).

View attachment 59420

This huge room easily slept my family of five comfortably and had modern amenities in the bathroom like a basin sink, etc. The rate on the web right now for a room tomorrow.. $139

For ROOMS... Disney's generally lack. I'm not saying they need to match this price... location is worth paying for... but services and rooms? Disney is way behind.

What's crazy is that Radisson used to be a Days Inn before they took it over and gutted it and redid it.

 

[SJN1279]

Am I the only person who doesn't care about hotel room vacancy rates or DVC?

 

[jt04]

Um, that is a single, self contained area. You should look it up (or John's much better example of Mall of America).

You can't really enjoy the beautiful Florida sunshine or natural lake setting of DTD at MoA now can you? And the Grand ol opry is its own venue that just happens to be near the area you mention.

Disney Springs will be quite unique from anything else out there and I am sure it will keep growing well into the future at WDW.

 

[SpaceMountain77]

No one says Maelstrom is awesome. I've loved the ride since childhood and even I don't say it's awesome (it's good). It could be better though if they would just do a PROPER refurb that keeps in theme with actual Norwegian folklore, not Frozen.

AGREED!

Vikings, they have Vikings! Imagineers could easily enhance Maelstrom, making it a D-ticket attraction, by drawing from Norway's rich heritage and spirit. Vikings!

 

[71jason]

There are currently twenty Cirque shows

So what you're saying is it's a chain?

(Sorry, couldn't help myself this time)

 

[71jason]

And you do.. there are at least a half dozen of these within 45mins of me. I'm not sure who is giving who credit here... except it's another dining experience besides 'Yet Another TGIF chain'.

My point is it doesn't help DTD/Disney Springs rise above being "just a mall." It's very good as chain restaurants go (if waaaay overpriced on drinks), but it doesn't transcend that at all. Which is exactly what I'd expect in an very good mall.

Were I on vacation, I wouldn't bother going to Splitsville. Or Fridays, Applebees, Chillis, or Tipsy McStaggerton's.

 

[marni1971]

Do you have the numbers for what has been spent on infrastructure and restorations under Iger? I know they have been playing catch-up after years of neglect by previous management.

So, when did Epcot get fixed again?