The Miscellaneous Thought Thread

[TP2000]

If Disney really does have older LSV's still operating for employee use that weren't equipped with now-mandatory seatbelts, and they have not been retrofitted with seatbelts to comply with California law, you can go on Amazon and have seatbelt retrofit kits sent to you overnight for relatively little money.

I find it very hard to believe Disney would willingly remove or deactivate the seat belts on their newer LSV's, but if they still have older LSV's that don't have seatbelts, Disney would be negligent for not retrofitting the seatbelts onto their older LSV's.

There's got to be more to this story on how/why Ms. Lear was ejected from a Disney owned LSV on Disney property.

 

[TP2000]

We don't know all the circumstances yet on any of this. Its best not to speculate out of respect for the deceased.

This is a discussion forum for Disney theme parks, and a Disney theme park employee was just killed in an accident on Disneyland property. There is no disrespect meant or displayed by discussing this unfortunate death seriously and maturely, as we have all done so far. I will continue to do so here as more info comes out, and the inevitable legal cases begin for this inivetable Cal OSHA case.

We held the same conversations on discussion boards when people were killed in the Columbia accident, or the Big Thunder accident. They did the same thing on the WDW boards when a CM was killed in the Monorail accident.

We have some basic facts here, and there appear to be glaring errors on Disney's part. We know from reports now that Ms. Lear was not wearing a seatbelt when she was ejected from the LSV as it went over a bump going at least 20mph in shared traffic. Disney is at great fault here from a Cal OSHA perspective if they willingly own and operate LSV's without legal safety equipment, even the bare minimum basics like seatbelts. Or worse, if Disney owns and operates mere golf carts but have not upgraded them to meet LSV safety requirements for shared roadways.

This is gonna be an ongoing story, to be sure, and we'll continue to discuss it. Disney's in hot water here.

 

[Disney Irish]

This is a discussion forum for Disney theme parks, and a Disney theme park employee was just killed in an accident on Disneyland property. There is no disrespect meant or displayed by discussing this unfortunate death seriously and maturely, as we have all done so far. I will continue to do so here as more info comes out, and the inevitable legal cases begin for this inivetable Cal OSHA case.

We held the same conversations on discussion boards when people were killed in the Columbia accident, or the Big Thunder accident. They did the same thing on the WDW boards when a CM was killed in the Monorail accident.

We have some basic facts here, and there appear to be glaring errors on Disney's part. We know from reports now that Ms. Lear was not wearing a seatbelt when she was ejected from the LSV as it went over a bump going at least 20mph in shared traffic. Disney is at great fault here from a Cal OSHA perspective if they willingly own and operate LSV's without legal safety equipment, even the bare minimum basics like seatbelts. Or worse, if Disney owns and operates mere golf carts but have not upgraded them to meet LSV safety requirements for shared roadways.

This is gonna be an ongoing story, to be sure, and we'll continue to discuss it. Disney's in hot water here.

Are they? Or was this negligence on the part of the deceased for not putting on the seat belt provided in the vehicle in the first place. See, this can go both ways. Not sure why its automatically assumed the fault is on Disney here and couldn't have been due to something the deceased and/or the other parties in the cart did of their own volition.

If you want to drag all parties involved through the mud be my guest. I was just suggesting we show a little decorum and respect and maybe let the process take place. But it seems like you want to litigate the scenario here.

Ok, so lets do this.

What type of carts does Disneyland own and what was used in the incident?
Do they have safety belts in place? If yes was the deceased wearing one at the time of the incident or was it faulty?
Do they have a safety feature that prevents the cart from moving if the safety belt wasn't used? If not why not? If so was it working?
When was the last time the cart was properly maintained? Were there any issues that could have caused the cart to be taken out of service?
Was the deceased properly trained on using the cart and its safety features before boarding? If not why not? And why were they allowed to board if they weren't?
Was the deceased or any party involved in the incident intoxicated at the time of the incident? If yes why were any allowed to operate or board the cart? Did that contribute to the incident?
What was the deceased mental state at the time of the incident? Was that a contributing factor?
Was the bump that caused the incident clearly labeled and did it have a speed limit that was clearly labeled? Was the cart going faster than the posted speed limit? If yes was that a contributing factor?

There are more that I could go on with. None of which we have the answers for here.

 

[TP2000]

Are they? Or was this negligence on the part of the deceased for not putting on the seat belt provided in the vehicle in the first place. See, this can go both ways. Not sure why its automatically assumed the fault is on Disney here and couldn't have been due to something the deceased and/or the other parties in the cart did of their own volition.

It's assumed the fault of Disney because so far, from the info we have, there has not been a report that Ms. Lear "was not wearing her seatbelt". That tells me Disney either has old LSV's without belts still in use, or has removed them for some reason.

Or worse, that Disney has mere golf carts in use on shared roadways when they should only be operating licensed LSV's.

I find it almost impossible to believe Disney would purposely remove the seat belts from their LSV's. So right now, my guess is either on very old LSV's that just weren't retrofitted with seatbelts (a problem!), or they're using simple golf carts in shared roadway traffic in violation of California law (an even bigger problem!).

Ok, so lets do this.

What type of carts does Disneyland own and what was used in the incident?
Do they have safety belts in place? If yes was the deceased wearing one at the time of the incident or was it faulty?
Do they have a safety feature that prevents the cart from moving if the safety belt wasn't used? If not why not? If so was it working?
When was the last time the cart was properly maintained? Were there any issues that could have caused the cart to be taken out of service?
Was the deceased properly trained on using the cart and its safety features before boarding? If not why not? And why were they allowed to board if they weren't?
Was the deceased or any party involved in the incident intoxicated at the time of the incident? If yes why were any allowed to operate or board the cart? Did that contribute to the incident?
What was the deceased mental state at the time of the incident? Was that a contributing factor?
Was the bump that caused the incident clearly labeled and did it have a speed limit that was clearly labeled? Was the cart going faster than the posted speed limit? If yes was that a contributing factor?

There are more that I could go on with. None of which we have the answers for here.

Those are all good questions, several of which I already asked here. I'm looking forward to learning that information as the legal and regulatory process for Disney plays out.

A CM was killed in a motor vehicle accident on the job at Disneyland. She wasn't wearing a seat belt. Why? How?

This is going to be an ongoing story through the summer. From the information we currently have from solid sources like the OC Register, Disney appears to be at fault here. And it's not just a vehicular accident, it appears to be problems with the equipment Disney owns and expects its employees to operate as part of their paid work duties.

Cal OSHA will be involved in this by Monday afternoon, if they aren't already. Stay tuned for how this plays out, but TDA is in hot water it would seem.

 

[Disney Irish]

It's assumed the fault of Disney because so far, from the info we have, there has not been a report that Ms. Lear "was not wearing her seatbelt". That tells me Disney either has old LSV's without belts still in use, or has removed them for some reason.

Or worse, that Disney has mere golf carts in use on shared roadways when they should only be operating licensed LSV's.

Point is we can't make those assumptions. If you're playing this fair and down the middle (and not just looking to point fingers at Disney) then it can't be assumed on anything. For all we know the deceased knowingly removed their safety belt or never put it on in the first place, if they exist on the cart. Or there could have been other contributing factors that lead to it happening, like maybe the driver was going too fast. So many unknowns that you can't assume anything.

Those are all good questions, several of which I already asked here. I'm looking forward to learning that information as the legal and regulatory process for Disney plays out.

A CM was killed in a motor vehicle accident on the job at Disneyland. She wasn't wearing a seat belt. Why? How?

This is going to be an ongoing story through the summer. From the information we currently have from solid sources like the OC Register, Disney appears to be at fault here. And it's not just a vehicular accident, it appears to be problems with the equipment Disney owns and expects its employees to operate as part of their paid work duties.

Disney is lawyering up already, I'm sure. And Cal OSHA will be involved by Monday afternoon, if they aren't already. Stay tuned for how this plays out, but TDA is in hot water it would seem.

Again it can't be assumed on anything. So I wouldn't automatically say that Disney is in hot water until the investigation is completed. And if Disney is at fault, then 100% go after them. But not every accident on-property is the fault of Disney though, which is why a complete thorough investigation is needed.

Also this really must be a rubbernecker type moment for you. Lol

 

[TP2000]

I'm laughing at myself over the golf cart/LSV thing. A couple of years ago I wouldn't have known squat about them, but then I went hunting for a new home and moved in to a gated community for the first time in my life, and I learned that modern LSV's aren't just a form of transportation. In reality, they are a Lifestyle Choice.

Ms. Lear was riding in a backward facing seat with 3 other passengers. So the LSV she was riding in had at least 4 seats.

I looked up what California is doing, compared to the more lax regulatory environment of Utah where LSV seatbelt use is mandatory. It appears that what California has done is simply treat all LSV's as regular cars; they need wipers, turn signals, mirrors, headlights and brake lights, and.... seatbelts. For regulatory and legal purposes, California considers anything with more than two seats as a regular motor vehicle.

From the California DMV website...

Modified Golf Carts—If the golf cart is modified to travel more than 15 mph or carry more than two persons (including the driver), the vehicle is considered to be a regular motor vehicle and must comply with the FMVSS for a regular passenger motor vehicle.

Golf carts operated for a distance not exceeding one mile from a golf course on a highway designated for such operation by ordinance or resolution are exempt from registration. If a golf cart becomes subject to registration, the registration requirements are the same as for an original or nonresident motor vehicle.

7.045 Golf Carts (VC §§345, 21115, 21115.1, and 21716) - California DMV

Golf carts are motor vehicles designed to do all the following: Golf carts weighing more than 1,300 pounds cannot be registered as a golf cart and are considered to be a regular motor vehicle which must comply with Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards (FMVSS) and California emissions...

www.dmv.ca.gov

 

[TP2000]

Here's a recent photo of a backstage area of Disneyland, with several LSV's parked in front of the CM Starbucks (naturally).

None of these 4 seat LSV's have seatbelts. There is a larger 6 passenger LSV that also doesn't have seatbelts in at least it's third row (the front rows were cut out of the photo unfortunately).

The "golf cart" that Ms. Lear was riding in was different than these, as it had 4 seats and she was in a backwards facing seat at the back of the vehicle. But if Disneyland doesn't have seat belts in its larger 4 and 6 passenger LSV's, it's reasonable to assume that their smaller 4 seat "golf carts" also do not have seat belts. But California law states golf carts that seat more than 2 people are still held to the same LSV regulations.

So then the questions become...

• Does Disney have some sort of exemption to LSV safety laws because they are on private Disney property?
• But if that's the case, the private roadways Disney operates these LSV's on still act and behave much like city streets with speeds over 20mph and full size vehicles (like the black Chevy pickup in the photo above) and even larger commercial trucks sharing backstage roadways with LSV's and "golf carts".
• So you would assume Disney would maintain the same legal standards for LSV's used on public roadways like Disney owns/maintains. But Disney doesn't do that? Why?

Per the California DMV:

Neighborhood Low-Speed Vehicle (LSV) Definition (CVC §§ 385.5, 21250)​

An LSV is a motor vehicle that:​

• Has four wheels.
• Within one mile can reach a speed of more than 20 miles per hour (mph) but not more than 25 mph on a paved level surface.
• Has a 17-digit conforming vehicle identification number (VIN)
• Has a gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) of less than 3,000 pounds.
• Must be certified to meet Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards (FMVSS) to be registered and operated on public streets, roads, or highways.
• May look like a golf-cart to the casual observer, but is actually a motor vehicle requiring a valid California driver license, registration, and insurance.

Neighborhood Electric Vehicle(NEV)/Low-Speed Vehicle (LSV) and Golf Cart Registration - California DMV

How do I register an NEV, LSV, or golf cart?

www.dmv.ca.gov

 

[Parteecia]

Here's a recent photo of a backstage area of Disneyland, with several LSV's parked in front of the CM Starbucks (naturally).

None of these 4 seat LSV's have seatbelts. There is a larger 6 passenger LSV that also doesn't have seatbelts in at least it's third row (the front rows were cut out of the photo unfortunately).

View attachment 790466
View attachment 790467

The "golf cart" that Ms. Lear was riding in was different than these, as it had 4 seats and she was in a backwards facing seat at the back of the vehicle. But if Disneyland doesn't have seat belts in its larger 4 and 6 passenger LSV's, it's reasonable to assume that their smaller 4 seat "golf carts" also do not have seat belts. But California law states golf carts used more than one mile away from a golf course are still held to the same LSV regulations.

So then the questions become...

• Does Disney have some sort of exemption to LSV safety laws because they are on private Disney property?
• But if that's the case, the private roadways Disney operates these LSV's on still act and behave much like city streets with speeds over 20mph and full size vehicles (like the black Chevy pickup in the photo above) and even larger commercial trucks sharing roadways with LSV's and "golf carts".
• So you would assume Disney would maintain the same legal standards for LSV's used on public roadways like Disney owns/maintains. But Disney doesn't do that? Why?

Per the California DMV:

Neighborhood Low-Speed Vehicle (LSV) Definition (CVC §§ 385.5, 21250)​

An LSV is a motor vehicle that:​

• Has four wheels.
• Within one mile can reach a speed of more than 20 miles per hour (mph) but not more than 25 mph on a paved level surface.
• Has a 17-digit conforming vehicle identification number (VIN)
• Has a gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) of less than 3,000 pounds.
• Must be certified to meet Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards (FMVSS) to be registered and operated on public streets, roads, or highways.
• May look like a golf-cart to the casual observer, but is actually a motor vehicle requiring a valid California driver license, registration, and insurance.

Neighborhood Electric Vehicle(NEV)/Low-Speed Vehicle (LSV) and Golf Cart Registration - California DMV

How do I register an NEV, LSV, or golf cart?

www.dmv.ca.gov

Thank you for doing the work for me. Again.

 

[TP2000]

Thank you for doing the work for me. Again.

My pleasure. Somehow my spidey sense went off when this sad story hit the newspapers.

Because I ride in neighbor's LSV's on occasion, and see them in my neighborhood daily and wave at parents and kids in them wearing 3 point shoulder seatbelts, I instantly wondered how/why they wouldn't have at the very least 2 point lap seatbelts on Disney's vehicles.

It still makes no sense to me how, or why, from a simple liability and risk management perspective.

But in California of all places, how does Disneyland legally get away with no seatbelts on their company vehicles?

 

[Parteecia]

My pleasure. Somehow my spidey sense went off when this sad story hit the newspapers.

Because I ride in neighbor's LSV's on occasion, and see them in my neighborhood daily and wave at parents and kids in them wearing 3 point seatbelts, I instantly wondered how/why they wouldn't have seatbelts on Disney's vehicles.

It still makes no sense to me how, or why, from a safety management perspective.

And how does Disneyland get away with not having seatbelts on their company vehicles legally?

Well, 'way back in 1977 I did ride in a pickup bed backstage while holding our stand's Christmas tree. Although in those days I think that was legal. Stupid but legal.

 

[TP2000]

Well, 'way back in 1977 I did ride in a pickup bed backstage while holding our stand's Christmas tree. Although in those days I think that was legal. Stupid but legal.

It's amazing how things have changed in the past 60 years, isn't it? Kids and teens used to ride around in the back of pickup trucks all the time. No such thing as a baby seat, the baby just sat on Mom's lap. Kids climbing all over the back seats and around the station wagon's cargo bay. And Dad driving with a cigarette in his hand with the windows rolled up, hotboxing the entire American family unit.

But it's not 1968 any more. As far as I can tell, these seat belt laws for LSV's and golf carts beyond a golf course have been on the books in California for years and years now. How did Disneyland get away with it? And what happens next?

 

[TP2000]

One more piece of information on the golf cart, from a CM involved in the situation, quoted in the New York Post today...

“The golf cart from the entertainment department was brand new. How the hell could it fall apart?! It’s just so unfair to us & the family.”

Disneyland did not immediately respond to The Post’s questions surrounding the various allegations.

So this wasn't even an older golf cart, it was "brand new" and seated more than 2 people and had no seatbelts installed. The only way that is legal in California is if the golf cart is to be used solely on golf courses or within a one mile radius of a golf course (which covers driving them around the clubhouse property, or private pathways in a gated community).

The nearest golf course to Disneyland is River View, and it's over 3 miles away from the southern perimeter of the Resort.

Disneyland employee killed on job by ‘reckless’ golf cart driver: friends

Anaheim resort managers are allegedly telling cast members to stay mum about the circumstances of their coworker’s death, an employee claimed.

nypost.com

 

[Phroobar]

It's amazing how things have changed in the past 60 years, isn't it? Kids and teens used to ride around in the back of pickup trucks all the time. No such thing as a baby seat, the baby just sat on Mom's lap. Kids climbing all over the back seats and around the station wagon's cargo bay. And Dad driving with a cigarette in his hand with the windows rolled up, hotboxing the entire American family unit.

But it's not 1968 any more. As far as I can tell, these seat belt laws for LSV's and golf carts beyond a golf course have been on the books in California for years and years now. How did Disneyland get away with it? And what happens next?

My '64 Riviera had optional back seat belts. I think the front were standard. No over the shoulder restraints.

 

[TP2000]

My '64 Riviera had optional back seat belts. I think the front were standard. No over the shoulder restraints.

Uh, we've been chatting online for years, and you just NOW mention you have a '64 Riviera?!?

Buick still had the nailhead V8 in their Riviera in '64, did it not? Do you still have it? And if you don't, please tell me you didn't just trade it in on a beige Camry!

 

[Phroobar]

Uh, we've been chatting online for years, and you just NOW mention you have a '64 Riviera?!?

Buick still had the nailhead V8 in their Riviera in '64, did it not? Do you still have it? And if you don't, please tell me you didn't just trade it in on a beige Camry!

It did. Tons of torque. It would throw you back in your seat. I inherited it from my grandmother after she hit a parked car in it. I put the car back together again and hardened the valves for unleaded and a few other things. I sold it to a collector in Australia when I got married. They don't make cars like this anymore.

 

[Disney Analyst]

RIP Al. I know his articles were one of the reasons I got swept into Disney fandom, message boards, etc.

 

[Stevek]

RIP Al. I know his articles were one of the reasons I got swept into Disney fandom, message boards, etc.

Beat me to it. While I didn't know him personally, I had a love/hate relationship with his articles. I respected his goal to always hold Disney to a higher standard and share his insider information. But at the same time, I started going to the parks with probably a far too critical eye where I was always lamenting the burned-out light bulb or missing paint...I spent too much time looking for those things vs just enjoying the environment. Rest is Peace Al.

 

[TP2000]

Beat me to it. While I didn't know him personally, I had a love/hate relationship with his articles. I respected his goal to always hold Disney to a higher standard and share his insider information.

I think one thing that will remain his legacy is the remake of DCA. If he hadn't gained much fame and respect in those early Internet years of 1998-2003, bringing exposure to the failures in Glendale and Burbank and thus helping to make DCA the punchline to jokes on national television, I'm not sure they would have spent the money and talent that they did to fix it.

A Disneyland era of 1998-2003 without Al Lutz would have led to a very different decision making from Disney's top execs.

 

[TP2000]

As expected, the state of California via Cal OSHA got involved on Monday in the investigation of the very sad death of the Disneyland CM last Friday. The findings will be made public, as with all Cal OSHA investigations.

State inspectors investigating fatal Disneyland accident

Cal/OSHA is investigating the ‘tragic’ Disneyland accident that killed a Club 33 employee.

www.ocregister.com

 

[Disney Irish]

As expected, the state of California via Cal OSHA got involved on Monday in the investigation of the very sad death of the Disneyland CM last Friday. The findings will be made public, as with all Cal OSHA investigations.

State inspectors investigating fatal Disneyland accident

Cal/OSHA is investigating the ‘tragic’ Disneyland accident that killed a Club 33 employee.

www.ocregister.com

An investigation was always going to happen as it was a workplace incident and is normal, so this isn't some big reveal. Having been involved in some CAL/OSHA investigations in the past, if there is any fault on either side they will find it. There is no automatic guilt placed on Disney just because an investigation is started. Its why I was saying before let the process take place.