The Miscellaneous Thought Thread

[Disney Irish]

As expected, the state of California via Cal OSHA got involved on Monday in the investigation of the very sad death of the Disneyland CM last Friday. The findings will be made public, as with all Cal OSHA investigations.

State inspectors investigating fatal Disneyland accident

Cal/OSHA is investigating the ‘tragic’ Disneyland accident that killed a Club 33 employee.

www.ocregister.com

An investigation was always going to happen as it was a workplace incident and is normal, so this isn't some big reveal. Having been involved in some CAL/OSHA investigations in the past, if there is any fault on either side they will find it. There is no automatic guilt placed on Disney just because an investigation is started. Its why I was saying before let the process take place.

 

[TP2000]

An investigation was always going to happen as it was a workplace incident and is normal, so this isn't some big reveal. Having been involved in some CAL/OSHA investigations in the past, if there is any fault on either side they will find it. There is no automatic guilt placed on Disney just because an investigation is started. Its why I was saying before let the process take place.

Yes, which is why I began that statement with the two words "As expected".

My only thought is the way Disneyland has gotten around having seatbelts in their golf carts and LSV's for decades is that they are being used on private property. But when the private property has a series of permanent 2 to 4 lane roadways used by motor vehicles and commercial trucks, that argument would seem to fall apart very fast in a court of law.

Even if Disney gets to enjoy a loophole in the law that allows for lesser safety regulations on private property, the case for liability by willingly operating like that and ignoring established safety and traffic laws won't stand up in front of a jury when the Lear family inevitably takes Disneyland to court.

Seatbelts for LSV's are the law on Anaheim streets, but if you are driving on Disney property just over the fence behind Critter Country, Disney is under no obligation to provide seatbelts for vehicles its employees must operate and ride in???

Make that make sense to a jury in a court of law.

 

[Disney Irish]

Yes, which is why I began that statement with the two words "As expected".

My only thought is the way Disneyland has gotten around having seatbelts in their golf carts and LSV's for decades is that they are being used on private property. But when the private property has a series of permanent 2 to 4 lane roadways used by motor vehicles and commercial trucks, that argument would seem to fall apart very fast in a court of law.

Even if Disney gets to enjoy a loophole in the law that allows for lesser safety regulations on private property, the case for liability by willingly operating like that and ignoring established safety and traffic laws won't stand up in front of a jury when the Lear family inevitably takes Disneyland to court.

Seatbelts for LSV's are the law on Anaheim streets, but if you are driving on Disney property just over the fence behind Critter Country, Disney is under no obligation to provide seatbelts for vehicles its employees must operate and ride in???

Make that make sense to a jury in a court of law.

View attachment 791002

You're litigating again without all the facts. We don't know the type of cart used or if they have safety belts. We don't know the requirements for said carts on private property. You're making assumptions based on what you've found on the CA DMV site which may not apply equally here. Also you're assuming that a lawsuit will be filed, it may not. So there isn't a jury involved, at least yet. And even if a jury is involved private property roadway cases have a completely different set of standards than public roadway cases.

Also there could be mitigating circumstances, for example it appears the driver was going faster then the speed limit for that area. That plays a part in this which take some liability off of Disney. We don't know what other mitigating circumstances may arise during the investigation.

So what I could see happening is the following -

CAL/OSHA finds that Disney is not at fault as there are mitigating circumstances that lead to the incident. But recommends that all carts without safety belts be replaced by carts with safety belts.
A lawsuit, if filed, will be against the party found at fault, likely the driver.
Disney will likely settle any suit filed against them.

 

[Disney Analyst]

This better be a case of the Calendar just not being updated...





Thank goodness it's after my trip if real.

 

[CastAStone]

This better be a case of the Calendar just not being updated...





Thank goodness it's after my trip if real.

The calendar is never up-to-date, I can’t fathom they would actually stop the Spider-Man show.

 

[Disney Analyst]

The calendar is never up-to-date, I can’t fathom they would actually stop the Spider-Man show.

From your lips to Disney's ears. Let it be so.

 

[SuddenStorm]

I think one thing that will remain his legacy is the remake of DCA. If he hadn't gained much fame and respect in those early Internet years of 1998-2003, bringing exposure to the failures in Glendale and Burbank and thus helping to make DCA the punchline to jokes on national television, I'm not sure they would have spent the money and talent that they did to fix it.

A Disneyland era of 1998-2003 without Al Lutz would have led to a very different decision making from Disney's top execs.

I remember when I met someone in charge of Disneyland's attraction safety certifications a bit ago- the topic of the Pressler era came up and the decline in maintenance in that era. I probably went a bit overboard in my thoughts (I was younger then, and didn't have the tact I'd have now)- and he did say that while maintenance decreased, the place was still a great place to visit and was still fun.

In hindsight- what a sad point of view for someone at the resort to have. The goal should be perfection- not 'well, it's still fun despite the flaws'. I have to imagine his attitude is that of many- and it's why we've seen a regression in maintenance over the last couple decades.

 

[SuddenStorm]

Yes, which is why I began that statement with the two words "As expected".

My only thought is the way Disneyland has gotten around having seatbelts in their golf carts and LSV's for decades is that they are being used on private property. But when the private property has a series of permanent 2 to 4 lane roadways used by motor vehicles and commercial trucks, that argument would seem to fall apart very fast in a court of law.

Even if Disney gets to enjoy a loophole in the law that allows for lesser safety regulations on private property, the case for liability by willingly operating like that and ignoring established safety and traffic laws won't stand up in front of a jury when the Lear family inevitably takes Disneyland to court.

Seatbelts for LSV's are the law on Anaheim streets, but if you are driving on Disney property just over the fence behind Critter Country, Disney is under no obligation to provide seatbelts for vehicles its employees must operate and ride in???

Make that make sense to a jury in a court of law.

View attachment 791002

Thinking back- unless I'm misremembering- I don't think there was seatbelts on the cast member shuttles that circle backstage 24/7 with stops around each major area for ease of getting around the resort (for those that don't know, there's a road that goes underneath the guest area and connects the two parks alongside Harbor Blvd.)

This manager's death is heartbreaking. I really hope it doesn't end up being because of a maintenance issue related to the golf carts- if so then it's the start of the Pressler era 'mishaps' all over again.

 

[TP2000]

You're litigating again without all the facts.

No, I'm not. I'm not a lawyer. I don't even watch Judge Judy. I'm talking on a Disneyland discussion forum about a recent CM death at Disneyland.

So far, all of the information we have points to the same thing... Disneyland operates a fleet of golf carts and LSV's on their backstage roadways without seat belts, even though California law requires those types of vehicles to have seat belts when driven on public streets. Ms. Lear was not wearing a seat belt and she was ejected from a golf cart going about 20mph when it went over a bump in the road.

Disney is in hot water here, both legally with the Lear family and regulatorily with the State of California. It's obvious.

 

[Disney Irish]

even though California law requires those types of vehicles to have seat belts when driven on public streets.

And this is where you fail. The cart wasn't being operated on public streets, so this bit is irrelevant to this incident.

As for the rest, we don't know what liability Disney has in this incident. You have a personal feeling on it, but that is not for sure what is going to happen. CAL/OSHA will determine that during their investigation. And as I said before, if Disney is found liable then go after them. Until then I'm going to let it go through the process. You've already made judgement it appears.

 

[Disney Irish]

No, I'm not. I'm not a lawyer. I don't even watch Judge Judy. I'm talking on a Disneyland discussion forum about a recent CM death at Disneyland.

So far, all of the information we have points to the same thing... Disneyland operates a fleet of golf carts and LSV's on their backstage roadways without seat belts, even though California law requires those types of vehicles to have seat belts when driven on public streets. Ms. Lear was not wearing a seat belt and she was ejected from a golf cart going about 20mph when it went over a bump in the road.

Disney is in hot water here, both legally with the Lear family and regulatorily with the State of California. It's obvious.

BTW, I can't confirm it but I've been reading that Disneyland rents their carts and not buys them. If there is any truth to that it would seem to shift a lot of the liability on the supplier rather than Disney if the cart was deemed faulty, unmaintained, and lacked proper safety restraints.

Also the speed limit backstage is 14mph which means the driver was speeding, which is 100% a contributing factor. That also goes a long way toward who is liable.

 

[davis_unoxx]

Not sure why people are attacking @TP2000

He is correct, Cast Members also transport guests across Disneyland Drive between the Disneyland Hotel and the Grand Californian on golf carts with no seat belts. They do this when water slides aren’t working at one of the hotels.

 

[TP2000]

Not sure why people are attacking @TP2000

In his defense, @Disney Irish wasn't attacking me. That's just how he communicates.

He is correct, Cast Members also transport guests across Disneyland Drive between the Disneyland Hotel and the Grand Californian on golf carts with no seat belts. They do this when water slides aren’t working at one of the hotels.

Fascinating! That would seem to open this issue up even further. Now we have Disneyland CM's on the clock driving the general public off Disney property and across city streets in golf carts or LSV's that have no seat belts and thus are in direct violation of multiple California laws regarding the use of those motor vehicles on public streets.

So as a way to review what we've now learned, let me get this straight... When I was touring homes in an under construction gated community in wild n' wooly unregulated Utah, and the perky and highly coiffed sales hostess loaded me into the golf cart with my glossy sales brochure and complimentary bottle of water and she asked me to buckle my 3-point shoulder harness seat belt before we drove slowly down closed streets to the first model home, that's sane and acceptable.

But when paying guests in highly regulated California need to be transported from one hotel to another across 6 travel lanes of Disneyland Drive when the waterslides are in rehab, the Walt Disney Company loads its customers into LSV's or golf carts that have no seat belts. And so the CM driving just says "We don't need no stinkin' seat belts! Get in, sit down, and hold on folks, cuz this here's the wildest ride in Anaheim!", and that's also sane and acceptable?

As I suspected when this story first broke, something definitely doesn't pass the smell test on this one.

 

[Disney Irish]

Not sure why people are attacking @TP2000

He is correct, Cast Members also transport guests across Disneyland Drive between the Disneyland Hotel and the Grand Californian on golf carts with no seat belts. They do this when water slides aren’t working at one of the hotels.

Nobody is attacking TP, but what is happening is questioning his presumption of guilt and assigning liability before the investigative process is complete. Something he is oft to do.

Also thank you for the information. That however isn't relevant to this incident. If it had involved guests on Disneyland Dr which is a public road rather than backstage on a private service road I might be more willing to prejudge and assign blame. However that is not what happened in this incident so has no bearing on CAL/OSHA's investigation.

 

[Disney Irish]

In his defense, @Disney Irish wasn't attacking me. That's just how he communicates.

Thank you, there was no attacking.

Fascinating! That would seem to open this issue up even further. Now we have Disneyland CM's on the clock driving the general public off Disney property and across city streets in golf carts or LSV's that have no seat belts and thus are in direct violation of multiple California laws regarding the use of those motor vehicles on public streets.

Not relevant to this incident as it didn't happen on public streets.

So as a way to review what we've now learned, let me get this straight... When I was touring homes in an under construction gated community in wild n' wooly unregulated Utah, and the perky and highly coiffed sales hostess loaded me into the golf cart with my glossy sales brochure and complimentary bottle of water and she asked me to buckle my 3-point shoulder harness seat belt before we drove slowly down closed streets to the first model home, that's sane and acceptable.

Again not relevant, your experience puttering around in a cart on a street in a gated community in another state has no bearing on this incident.

But when paying guests in highly regulated California need to be transported from one hotel to another across 6 travel lanes of Disneyland Drive when the waterslides are in rehab, the Walt Disney Company loads its customers into LSV's or golf carts that have no seat belts. And so the CM driving just says "We don't need no stinkin' seat belts! Get in, sit down, and hold on folks, cuz this here's the wildest ride in Anaheim!", and that's also sane and acceptable?

As I suspected when this story first broke, something definitely doesn't pass the smell test on this one.

Guests weren't involved in this incident, so still not relevant.

I have a question, and I know it doesn't pass your "smell test" so you won't think its plausible, but what if CAL/OSHA actually doesn't find Disney at fault here?

 

[TP2000]

I have a question, and I know it doesn't pass your "smell test" so you won't think its plausible, but what if CAL/OSHA actually doesn't find Disney at fault here?

I actually think that's very plausible, and I've already mentioned it a few times.

I'm not an expert on vehicle law, or law in general, so as I've stated multiple times here there very well could be a legal loophole that allows Disney to own and operate a fleet of employee vehicles that don't have seatbelts because those vehicles are operating on private property.

Thus, technically Cal OSHA may not find that Disney is violating laws here because they have an exemption per the DMV.

But that doesn't absolve Disney of blame here in a court of law in the inevitable lawsuit that will be coming. Disney should be following best practices for safety, and there's no good reason I can think of why seat belt laws apply on city streets, but magically disappear on the backstage roads on the other side of Disneyland's fence.

A jury would likely agree.

 

[TP2000]

This better be a case of the Calendar just not being updated...

So it's been a day now since this rumor broke. Any follow up from Disney to correct it?

If they really are cancelling Five & Dime, and cancelling a bunch more characters from Marvel Land.... yikes.

Did they ever think to cancel some of the cubicle folks in TDA first? That would've been better for the paying customers.

 

[Disney Irish]

I actually think that's very plausible, and I've already mentioned it a few times.

I'm not an expert on vehicle law, or law in general, so as I've stated multiple times here there very well could be a legal loophole that allows Disney to own and operate a fleet of employee vehicles that don't have seatbelts because those vehicles are operating on private property.

Thus, technically Cal OSHA may not find that Disney is violating laws here because they have an exemption per the DMV.

But that doesn't absolve Disney of blame here in a court of law in the inevitable lawsuit that will be coming. Disney should be following best practices for safety, and there's no good reason I can think of why seat belt laws apply on city streets, but magically disappear on the backstage roads on the other side of Disneyland's fence.

A jury would likely agree.

View attachment 791243

I cannot say what a jury will or won't agree with, as I'm not a voir dire expert, as I assume you aren't either.

Also if no fault is found by CAL/OSHA for Disney, and they find fault with another party such as the driver and/or vendor of the cart I would guess any lawsuit is more likely against those parties. It would be hard to prove liability if they were found to have no fault by CAL/OSHA anyways. And so if any suit is actually filed against Disney it would probably be settle fairly quickly I'm sure, so there wouldn't be a jury anyways. But we'll see what happens.

 

[TP2000]

I cannot say what a jury will or won't agree with, as I'm not a voir dire expert, as I assume you aren't either.

At first I thought that was just a typo, as I had no idea what those words meant.

But then I Googled the letters "voir dire", and it's actually a real legal term. Who knew?

Also if no fault is found by CAL/OSHA for Disney, and they find fault with another party such as the driver and/or vendor of the cart I would guess any lawsuit is more likely against those parties. It would be hard to prove liability if they were found to have no fault by CAL/OSHA anyways. And so if any suit is actually filed against Disney it would probably be settle fairly quickly I'm sure, so there wouldn't be a jury anyways. But we'll see what happens.

I imagine that Disney would be found at fault regardless of whether they own or lease the LSV's without seat belts.

Renting equipment that doesn't meet safety regulations would just mean Disney knowingly misused the equipment they rented. Kind of like renting a chocolate fondue fountain but using it for an acid bath parts washer, you can't blame the party supply rental agent or the fondue fountain manufacturer for your misuse of the equipment if an employee gets an acid burn.

Why is Disney currently operating a huge fleet of golf carts and LSV's that don't meet existing California laws and safety regulations for those vehicles on public streets?

 

[Disney Irish]

At first I thought that was just a typo, as I had no idea what those words meant.

But then I Googled the letters "voir dire", and it's actually a real legal term. Who knew?

Anyone that has watched a legal procedural or movie anytime in the last 100 years would know. Anyways yes its a legal term.

I imagine that Disney would be found at fault regardless of whether they own or lease the LSV's without seat belts.

Renting equipment that doesn't meet safety regulations would just mean Disney knowingly misused the equipment they rented. Kind of like renting a chocolate fondue fountain but using it for an acid bath parts washer, you can't blame the party supply rental agent or the fondue fountain manufacturer for your misuse of the equipment if an employee gets an acid burn.

Except there is no indication of misuse of the equipment, other than going faster than the posted speed limit.

If the equipment was found faulty even under normal use the vendor would be held liable as its their responsibility to ensure its maintained properly.

Why is Disney currently operating a huge fleet of golf carts and LSV's that don't meet existing California laws and safety regulations for those vehicles on public streets?

Still not relevant and has no bearing on this specific incident as it wasn't on public streets. I'm going to keep repeating this as long as you keep insisting on trying to make this point in regards to this incident.