The Miscellaneous Thought Thread

[Animaniac93-98]

Grizzly Peak is an area that's easy to forget about, but when you're in the land it's hard not to be impressed. More than any other area of the park its the one that has benefited the most from time, giving the forest a larger, more lived in look. How the rockwork, trees and hotel blend together is fantastic. You forget about how close you are to a concrete jungle. The strangest thing about GP though is how you often forget about the big, central mountain right there. For what was once the symbol of DCA, there's not many angles you can get a good look at it. It's the center of the park, but doesn't define its skyline or shape its layout like Mount Prometheus at TDS does.

And then there's the rest of the park with Hollywoodland (as bad as Studios Paris) and Pixar Pier. The gaps in quality are gaping, and all you have to do is walk around a corner to see them.

 

[DrAlice]

So what's Disney got against Bruno? First they're telling him to be silent, now they won't talk about him.

 

[smooch]

The one thing I’m not crazy about in Encanto is the continued emasculation of Men in Hollywood. Every single adult male in the movie is emasculated in one way or another in the movie. I know there is a stereotype that Latina women wear the pants in the family but I’m not sure how true that is or if it applies to Columbian people.

Anyway you have Mirabels Dad who has to look at his wife to see if what’s he’s saying is ok and then repeats after her like a sad puppy when trying to talk to his daughter.

Tio Felix gets told “shut up” while his wife is singing and takes a backseat.

Mariano (the guy who ends up proposing to Cousin Dolores) is the eager one to get married and is told to “calm down” aka you re rushing which of course is an attempt to reverse the more traditional “stereotype” of women being more eager to get married.

Tio Bruno is shorter than both of his biological sisters and is portrayed as less capable, mentally strong etc..

Then of course the physically “Strong one” is a woman, Mirabels sister Luisa (which I get is more interesting for a character in this movie than if the strong one was a man) But when it’s coupled with the feminine sister who magically makes flowers everywhere until she suddenly “finds herself” and then only produces spiney cactuses (more masculine) from their on out its a bit much.

Anyway, there just seems to be an agenda to portray men as being more feminine and women as being more masculine. I’m not sure what the goal is? An attempt by those in Hollywood to say their are no genders? To reverse the hardcore “stereotypes” ( to an extent) from history with a massive over correction? Or do they just think it makes characters and stories more interesting to do this? I mean I guess that would be true if it wasn’t like the last 175 movies in a row doing the same thing.

Just my input but as a younger person I think my generation has really destigmatized men being more feminine / not traditionally masculine. I am not masculine at all, I am a tall but lanky twink as @TP2000 would say with long hair whose main interests are fashion and music. I'm soft spoken (unless I need to be stern / confident when speaking like at work) and am not very muscular or into "manly things" like I hate sports (except skateboarding / snowboarding). I don't see it as a continued emasculation, I think it's Hollywood trying to present what is a more accurate representation of young men today. Older generations will definitely see an issue with this "feminization" of men because they had different gender roles and societal expectations of how men should act. I'm not saying one way is right and one is wrong, just my two cents. Obviously there are still plenty of traditionally masculine men in my generation and in younger people in general, I just think it's more widely accepted for guys to have more "feminine" traits and interests and for women to have more "masculine" traits and interests.

I can't really speak on Encanto as a whole since I was asleep for half of it but when I was watching I genuinely didn't think anything was out of the ordinary, I honestly felt like in a way it was a more accurate representation of people nowadays rather than every guy being the big strong knight in shining armor to save the day. I'm not trying to state how movies should be or what society should expect of men, just my observations of how people act now and what younger generations see as there has been a big push in our generation to remove the association with a specific gender to traits and activities and instead just have it depend on the individual.

This was an interesting thought you brought up, I will have it in the back of my mind when I do go back and watch Encanto without falling asleep from exhaustion.

 

[smooch]

Meanwhile Studio Ghibli has made the most beautiful 2D films in history throughout the last few decades (with a new hand drawn film on the way).

I love Studio Ghibli, I take my Kiki's Delivery Service lunchbox to work! I did not know they were making a new movie, thank you for getting me excited!

 

[Mac Tonight]

Just my input but as a younger person I think my generation has really destigmatized men being more feminine / not traditionally masculine. I am not masculine at all, I am a tall but lanky twink as @TP2000 would say with long hair whose main interests are fashion and music. I'm soft spoken (unless I need to be stern / confident when speaking like at work) and am not very muscular or into "manly things" like I hate sports (except skateboarding / snowboarding). I don't see it as a continued emasculation, I think it's Hollywood trying to present what is a more accurate representation of young men today. Older generations will definitely see an issue with this "feminization" of men because they had different gender roles and societal expectations of how men should act. I'm not saying one way is right and one is wrong, just my two cents. Obviously there are still plenty of traditionally masculine men in my generation and in younger people in general, I just think it's more widely accepted for guys to have more "feminine" traits and interests and for women to have more "masculine" traits and interests.

I can't really speak on Encanto as a whole since I was asleep for half of it but when I was watching I genuinely didn't think anything was out of the ordinary, I honestly felt like in a way it was a more accurate representation of people nowadays rather than every guy being the big strong knight in shining armor to save the day. I'm not trying to state how movies should be or what society should expect of men, just my observations of how people act now and what younger generations see as there has been a big push in our generation to remove the association with a specific gender to traits and activities and instead just have it depend on the individual.

This was an interesting thought you brought up, I will have it in the back of my mind when I do go back and watch Encanto without falling asleep from exhaustion.

I kind of already regret wading into this discussion, but I just have to wonder: are men more "feminine" today because that's just how men are, and the media is hoping to reflect that? OR, are men more "feminine" today because they are heavily inundated with media portraying the emasculated man/alpha woman? It's kind of the whole, chicken/egg debate.

I know people like to think that media is supposed to portray our society as it is, but sometimes I wonder if media isn't trying to portray the kind of society that the creators want there to be. And that is what is causing people to adapt their behaviors/lifestyles.

 

[smooch]

I kind of already regret wading into this discussion, but I just have to wonder: are men more "feminine" today because that's just how men are, and the media is hoping to reflect that? OR, are men more "feminine" today because they are heavily inundated with media portraying the emasculated man/alpha woman? It's kind of the whole, chicken/egg debate.

I know people like to think that media is supposed to portray our society as it is, but sometimes I wonder if media isn't trying to portray the kind of society that the creators want there to be. And that is what is causing people to adapt their behaviors/lifestyles.

I mean I was born in 1999 and I don't know how old you are but from my childhood I don't recall media showing more feminine men in my early childhood. I think there are just inherently some men who are more feminine than what past generations considered masculine and newer generations accept that rather than judging and criticizing men who don't fit that role. I truly believe there were a good amount of guys in the past who had more feminine interests but couldn't pursue them due to fear of backlash from their peers. Peers police each other's behavior, it's one of the core foundations of the development of our identities as individuals, along with the media and family.

There's no real way to tell which came first, I'm not trying to claim either way is correct, I just don't think it came from the media at least not as much as you think it might have. I can't remember any shows or movies I watched when I was young that had more feminine male characters that would have substantially shaped my interests. In fact my dad showed me a lot of classic movies which 100% had stereotypical masculine men and feminine women, but here I am, most of my friends are girls and most people that meet me think I am gay based on the way I present myself, apparently. I really believe that people have certain interests that they inherently enjoy and I just happened to enjoy more feminine stuff, according to society.

I don't know, I just don't think including more soft spoken men and more strong women in movies is an attempt to change societal norms, I think it's a reflection of the norms that we have already that haven't been represented in media as commonly. It's the same way I don't think every LGBT character in a movie is a "shoe-in character" like some people do. I am not saying you do this I am just saying that online I notice when there is a gay character or couple in a movie or show people ask "why do they have to be gay, it's forced" when nobody says that about a straight relationship or character. People don't need to have lore in a show as to why they're gay, it's just the way they are. Why don't movies have to explain why a character is straight. In those instances I believe it is just the media trying to reflect on a more modern culture, but there definitely are movies / shows that it does feel forced in. I just think it happens every time there's an LGBT character even if the character fits naturally in the story.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I kind of already regret wading into this discussion, but I just have to wonder: are men more "feminine" today because that's just how men are, and the media is hoping to reflect that? OR, are men more "feminine" today because they are heavily inundated with media portraying the emasculated man/alpha woman? It's kind of the whole, chicken/egg debate.

I know people like to think that media is supposed to portray our society as it is, but sometimes I wonder if media isn't trying to portray the kind of society that the creators want there to be. And that is what is causing people to adapt their behaviors/lifestyles.

All you have to do is look at older cultural materials to see that the “feminine characteristics” of men is something that ebbs and flows from time and place. Teddy Roosevelt is considered very manly and a romantic. Heels and stockings were once the height of men’s fashion.

 

[mickEblu]

Just my input but as a younger person I think my generation has really destigmatized men being more feminine / not traditionally masculine. I am not masculine at all, I am a tall but lanky twink as @TP2000 would say with long hair whose main interests are fashion and music. I'm soft spoken (unless I need to be stern / confident when speaking like at work) and am not very muscular or into "manly things" like I hate sports (except skateboarding / snowboarding). I don't see it as a continued emasculation, I think it's Hollywood trying to present what is a more accurate representation of young men today. Older generations will definitely see an issue with this "feminization" of men because they had different gender roles and societal expectations of how men should act. I'm not saying one way is right and one is wrong, just my two cents. Obviously there are still plenty of traditionally masculine men in my generation and in younger people in general, I just think it's more widely accepted for guys to have more "feminine" traits and interests and for women to have more "masculine" traits and interests.

I can't really speak on Encanto as a whole since I was asleep for half of it but when I was watching I genuinely didn't think anything was out of the ordinary, I honestly felt like in a way it was a more accurate representation of people nowadays rather than every guy being the big strong knight in shining armor to save the day. I'm not trying to state how movies should be or what society should expect of men, just my observations of how people act now and what younger generations see as there has been a big push in our generation to remove the association with a specific gender to traits and activities and instead just have it depend on the individual.

This was an interesting thought you brought up, I will have it in the back of my mind when I do go back and watch Encanto without falling asleep from exhaustion.

I can appreciate your perspective. Looks like @mactonight already touched on part of what I was going to say in regards to what comes first the chicken or the egg. To be honest, I think it’s a bit of both and they fed off each other. As the world became more progressive and people of different races/ sexual preferences etc got into positions of power in Hollywood and everywhere else they wanted to reflect themselves and what they want to see in the world. Im ok with that that to an extent as there are many different kinds of people. What starts to bother me though is when it starts coming across an an agenda. And what makes me feel like that is the consistency and repetition. I’ve made a list in the past of examples from Disney/ Pixar movies of the past 10 years. We get it already. Men can be feminine. Women can be masculine. Yada yada yada. But I don’t think it’s stopping here. The next move is to convince everyone that there are no genders.

In regards to Encanto the examples I provided didn’t stop me from enjoying the movie. Just an annoyance in retrospect as it continues the very repetitive pattern I’ve been noticing and it’s even getting boring. At this point it would almost be refreshing to see a male Hero in a Disney/ Pixar movie. If you look at the last 10 years of Pixar/ Disney movies, the female leads or hero’s outnumber the men about 9 to 1. It’s getting old. But animated movies with strong male hero’s doesn’t interest or represent the people working at the Company right now.

 

[lazyboy97o]

A skirt is delicate and feminine. Add decorative pleats accessorized with a purse and long socks with matching ribbons and you have a manly kilt.

 

[smooch]

I can appreciate your perspective. Looks like @mactonight already touched on part of what I was going to say in regards to what comes first the chicken or the egg. To be honest, I think it’s a bit of both and they fed off each other. As the world became more progressive and people of different races/ sexual preferences etc got into positions of power in Hollywood and everywhere else they wanted to reflect themselves and what they want to see in the world. Im ok with that that to an extent as there are many different kinds of people. What starts to bother me though is when it starts coming across an an agenda. And what makes me feel like that is the consistency and repetition. I’ve made a list in the past of examples from Disney/ Pixar movies of the past 10 years. We get it already. Men can be feminine. Women can be masculine. Yada yada yada. But I don’t think it’s stopping here. The next move is to convince everyone that there are no genders.

In regards to Encanto the examples I provided didn’t stop me from enjoying the movie. Just an annoyance in retrospect as it continues the very repetitive pattern I’ve been saying and it’s even getting boring. At this point it would almost be refreshing to see a male Hero in a Disney/ Pixar movie. If you look at the last 10 years of Pixar/ Disney movies the only the female leads or hero’s outnumber the men about 9 to 1. It’s getting old.

I am probably more progressive than most on this board but I highly, highly doubt mainstream media is going to attempt to convince people there are no genders. Even for me that is a very progressive idea. I do think typical gender roles are outdated and that gender is more of a spectrum but I am not a gender abolitionist like I see on Twitter. I don't wanna delve too far into that discussion so I'll stop there but while I do 100% agree that there are plenty of instances of studios and specifically Disney pandering with instances of forced inclusion of LGBT stuff that does feel shoe-horned in I didn't feel that way about Encanto. And yes I do agree with the chicken or the egg discussion it is definitely a bit of both fueling each other, but I don't think just media alone would emasculate a generation of men, it would also have to come from peers and parents / teachers / etc.

 

[Mac Tonight]

All you have to do is look at older cultural materials to see that the “feminine characteristics” of men is something that ebbs and flows from time and place. Teddy Roosevelt is considered very manly and a romantic. Heels and stockings were once the height of men’s fashion.

I see where you’re coming from and largely I agree. But when heels and stockings were the height of men’s fashion, we’re those things considered “feminine”? Somehow I doubt it. I have a hard time thinking our Founder Fathers we’re getting accused by their peers of wearing women’s clothes while drafting the Constitution.

 

[Phroobar]

I don't know, I just don't think including more soft spoken men and more strong women in movies is an attempt to change societal norms, I think it's a reflection of the norms that we have already that haven't been represented in media as commonly. It's the same way I don't think every LGBT character in a movie is a "shoe-in character" like some people do. I am not saying you do this I am just saying that online I notice when there is a gay character or couple in a movie or show people ask "why do they have to be gay, it's forced" when nobody says that about a straight relationship or character. People don't need to have lore in a show as to why they're gay, it's just the way they are. Why don't movies have to explain why a character is straight. In those instances I believe it is just the media trying to reflect on a more modern culture, but there definitely are movies / shows that it does feel forced in. I just think it happens every time there's an LGBT character even if the character fits naturally in the story.

I got to totally agree here. Why does every Netflix show have to have at least one LGBT character who is usually the comic relief and has to have one arbitrary sex scene that never advances the story? Disney has started adding that kind of character to Star Wars and Marvel. It just comes off as pandering.

 

[mickEblu]

I got to totally agree here. Why does every Netflix show have to have at least one LGBT character who is usually the comic relief and has to have one arbitrary sex scene that never advances the story?

Becasue they want to have their cake and eat it too. They want to appear to be inclusive but also still appeal to the mainstream. Because they think we re stupid

 

[Parteecia]

If you look at the last 10 years of Pixar/ Disney movies, the female leads or hero’s outnumber the men about 9 to 1

I spent most of my youth first 3 decades identifying with the white male protagonist because the women and anyone of color were usually useless. "Raiders of the Lost Ark" was such an amazing and wonderful eye opener because there was finally a strong capable woman I could see myself in and root for. As someone else said, there are still plenty of movies from the straight white male perspective. Don't begrudge the rest of us for what we are finally getting.

 

[mickEblu]

I spent most of my youth identifying with the white male protagonist because the women and anyone of color were usually useless. "Raiders of the Lost Ark" was such an amazing and wonderful eye opener because there was finally a strong capable woman I could see myself in and root for. As someone else said, there are still plenty of movies from the straight white male perspective. Don't begrudge the rest of us for what we are finally getting.

I swear I sleep fine at night. Just making observations and telling it like it is. You keep on enjoying.

 

[smooch]

I got to totally agree here. Why does every Netflix show have to have at least one LGBT character who is usually the comic relief and has to have one arbitrary sex scene that never advances the story? Disney has started adding that kind of character to Star Wars and Marvel. It just comes off as pandering.

The Netflix comic relief LGBT character trope is definitely the worst offender. Like I said I wouldn't care if it was just a character who happened to be gay but it feels like they try to be too in your face about it and it comes off as pandering. Like there are multiple jokes directed around their sexuality and their whole persona feels like a caricature of a gay person. Why not just write a well written character and instead of having a heterosexual relationship make it whatever kind of relationship, you don't have to go out of your way to bring attention to it to show off inclusivity.

And again I say this as a very progressive person, and I also understand how validating it must feel for LGBT people to finally get representation in media, I just wish it was better representation with well written characters who are more than just their sexuality. I don't share this sentiment when a movie is about a character exploring their sexuality.

I think one good example from Netflix that comes to mind is Robin in Stranger Things Season 3, how her and Steve have their whole adventure and at the end when he reveals his feelings she tells him she's gay and they talk about it for a bit. She was a well written character who had a whole storyline and also happened to be gay and was who she was, if that makes sense.

 

[Parteecia]

I swear I sleep fine at night. Just making observations and telling it like it is. You keep on enjoying.

Thanks, I will. So many brown women! Finally! And not the maid!

 

[mickEblu]

Thanks, I will. So many brown women! Finally! And not the maid!

Lol. If it means anything to you, I think Encanto and Coco are two of the best movies Disney/ Pixar has put put out in recent history.

 

[Mac Tonight]

I interrupt your previous discussion to bring you...

A teaser for Guillermo Del Toro's interpretation of Pinocchio.

It looks... interesting? Too soon to tell.

 

[Disney Irish]

I interrupt your previous discussion to bring you...

A teaser for Guillermo Del Toro's interpretation of Pinocchio.

It looks... interesting? Too soon to tell.

Nah, this one looks more interesting -