The Miscellaneous Thought Thread

[SuddenStorm]

Why do Marvel attractions have to be any more Meta than Indiana Jones is?

Exactly. As an audience, we know that the Marvel universe isn't actually the world we live in, even if that's what it portrays. It's fantasy- and when it's portrayed in a theme park, it needs to transport us away from our own world, and into a universe where superheroes do exist. Which is impossible if you're relying on meta humor and explanations to tell the story.

 

[SuddenStorm]

Rockets line of “is that Disneyland? That’s thematically inconsistent” is pretty annoying and I can’t help but feel that it was inspired by people like us. Almost as if they visit this site or ones like it.

I imagine they felt that if they directly reference it- then it somehow makes the problem okay.

Not much thought went into the development of that ride, and it makes me worried for Galaxy's Edge.

 

[BrianLo]

Why do Marvel attractions have to be any more Meta than Indiana Jones is?

Meta is technically incorrect, as the property itself isn't self-referential. The only one character who is Meta is DeadPool.

However, in terms of referencing real places, events and other forms of literature?

Disneyland doesn't exist in the world of Indiana Jones. The MCU (without discussing the theme parks at all), is a franchise that occurs in our world. Disneyland exists within the world of the movies. They consider other forms of prominent literature and movies to exist as literature and movies within the context of their universe. Obviously most people recall the Mary Poppins callouts. But I think Star Wars is nestled in one of the movies too.

 

[mickEblu]

Exactly. As an audience, we know that the Marvel universe isn't actually the world we live in, even if that's what it portrays. It's fantasy- and when it's portrayed in a theme park, it needs to transport us away from our own world, and into a universe where superheroes do exist. Which is impossible if you're relying on meta humor and explanations to tell the story.

Yup. We don’t need an explanation on what the Temple of the Forbidden Eye is doing in Adventureland because it works.

 

[SuddenStorm]

Oh no.... What if, in the new Falcon ride, it shows you lifting off and flying away from Disneyland?

That kind of meta humor is just what this generation of Imagineers relies on.

 

[SuddenStorm]

Yup. We don’t need an explanation on what the Temple of the Forbidden Eye is doing in Adventureland because it works.

I've also always allowed myself the conceit that once I'm in the queue for that attraction, I'm no longer in that specific land, but the world the attraction is set in.

Which makes the weird backstory that Tivan brought his collection to DCA even worse.

 

[mickEblu]

Meta is technically incorrect, as the property itself isn't self-referential. The only one character who is Meta is DeadPool.

However, in terms of referencing real places, events and other forms of literature?

Disneyland doesn't exist in the world of Indiana Jones. The MCU (without discussing the theme parks at all), is a franchise that occurs in our world. Disneyland exists within the world of the movies. They consider other forms of prominent literature and movies to exist as literature and movies within the context of their universe. Obviously most people recall the Mary Poppins callouts. But I think Star Wars is nestled in one of the movies too.

But Indiana Jones exists in our world and we know that Disneyland is part of that world. Just because they don’t reference Disneyland in the Indy movies is irrelevant IMO.

 

[SuddenStorm]

Meta is technically incorrect, as the property itself isn't self-referential. The only one character who is Meta is DeadPool.

However, in terms of referencing real places, events and other forms of literature?

Disneyland doesn't exist in the world of Indiana Jones. The MCU (without discussing the theme parks at all), is a franchise that occurs in our world. Disneyland exists within the world of the movies. They consider other forms of prominent literature and movies to exist as literature and movies within the context of their universe. Obviously most people recall the Mary Poppins callouts. But I think Star Wars is nestled in one of the movies too.

The only reason Disneyland isn't around in the world of Indiana Jones is because those films take place before the park opened. But Indiana Jones is meant to take place in our world, just like the Marvel universe.

 

[mickEblu]

I've also always allowed myself the conceit that once I'm in the queue for that attraction, I'm no longer in that specific land, but the world the attraction is set in.

Which makes the weird backstory that Tivan brought his collection to DCA even worse.

Yeah I agree and I think that’s the way most of us subcociously think about it. On Splash Mountain I don’t need someone telling me why I’m stepping into a hollowed out log and why chikapin hill from the Song of the south suddenly sprouted inside of Disneyland.

 

[BrianLo]

Not much thought went into the development of that ride, and it makes me worried for Galaxy's Edge.

Honestly, I think it's disingenuous equating the two. That project's development cycle, logistics and team has very little in common with SW:GE. Of course it could be a disaster, but I'd draw more similarities with the development of Pandora or Shanghai Disneyland.

 

[mickEblu]

Honestly, I think it's disingenuous equating the two. That project's development cycle, logistics and team has very little in common with SW:GE. Of course it could be a disaster, but I'd draw more similarities with the development of Pandora or Shanghai Disneyland.

Yeah I’m not so much worried for Galaxies edge just hoping the budget cuts don’t effect the ride experience too much. I’m much more concerned about Marvel Land.

 

[BrianLo]

The only reason Disneyland isn't around in the world of Indiana Jones is because those films take place before the park opened. But Indiana Jones is meant to take place in our world, just like the Marvel universe.

I know, but you are still stepping back into the past. The concept of Disneyland doesn't exist to Indiana Jones, there is nothing to reference. The "problem" is that the characters in the movies (not the attractions), are aware of Disneyland. The movies also coincide with our current timelines.

So either the lands need to function as a portal into a different place (i.e. you are stepping into New York and then stepping into the Avengers Tower where the characters are unaware this fantastical portal exists in a theme park they are aware of), or the characters need a purpose to have an attraction in the park.

Edit: Which I am saying if you are going with the second option, Hong Kong handles well and Mission Breakout sort of mangles.

 

[mickEblu]

I know, but you are still stepping back into the past. The concept of Disneyland doesn't exist to Indiana Jones, there is nothing to reference. The "problem" is that the characters in the movies (not the attractions), are aware of Disneyland. The movies also coincide with our current timelines.

So either the lands need to function as a portal into a different place (i.e. you are stepping into New York and then stepping into the Avengers Tower where the characters are unaware this fantastical portal exists in a theme park they are aware of), or the characters need a purpose to have an attraction in the park.

Edit: Which I am saying if you are going with the second option, Hong Kong handles well and Mission Breakout sort of mangles.

You make good points but I still don’t understand why it HAS to be self referential? My point is if there was some real world building with these Marvel attractions that they wouldn’t have to take this approach. I think it’s being done to accommodate these rushed non ambitious Marvel attractions and not because it’s some bold creative decision.

 

[BrianLo]

You make good points but I still don’t understand why it HAS to be self referential? My point is if there was some real world building with these Marvel attractions that they wouldn’t have to take this approach. I think it’s being done to accommodate these rushed non ambitious Marvel attractions and not because it’s some bold creative decision.

It's actually not self referential though. It's trying to maintain that it, itself, is real. Within the parameters that have been set from the movies. Again, Shuri literally asks T'Challa if they are going to Disneyland. This is the core problem with the MCU's integration.

I think what you guys hate is that they overdid it (Mission Breakout, not the Iron Man Experience). Indirectly by declaring itself real - they've declared everything else within that resort as fake. Tony on the other hand doesn't break the illusion that Tomorrowland is still supposed to be some sort of fantasy future showcase/world of tomorrow.

I'm not disagreeing per say, I just think that the whole concept that these characters really do know about the parks does not have to be a flawed. 'Apparently' this is part of the greater plan that all the attractions (by remaining unique), sort of form a cohesive theme park pocket universe. I actually think that's a strong/bold idea, but the start has been so stop and go we aren't seeing it yet. Mission Breakout still being relegated to a dying land it wasn't meant for.

 

[Disney Irish]

It's actually not self referential though. It's trying to maintain that it, itself, is real. Within the parameters that have been set from the movies. Again, Shuri literally asks T'Challa if they are going to Disneyland. This is the core problem with the MCU's integration.

I think what you guys hate is that they overdid it (Mission Breakout, not the Iron Man Experience). Indirectly by declaring itself real - they've declared everything else within that resort as fake. Tony on the other hand doesn't break the illusion that Tomorrowland is still supposed to be some sort of fantasy future showcase/world of tomorrow.

I'm not disagreeing per say, I just think that the whole concept that these characters really do know about the parks does not have to be a flawed. 'Apparently' this is part of the greater plan that all the attractions (by remaining unique), sort of form a cohesive theme park pocket universe. I actually think that's a strong/bold idea, but the start has been so stop and go we aren't seeing it yet. Mission Breakout still being relegated to a dying land it wasn't meant for.

Agreed. Marvel (even the comics) as far as I remember has always had direct references to our world and time going back to the beginning of the company. So its not out of character for the content being used.

 

[shortstop]

It's actually not self referential though. It's trying to maintain that it, itself, is real. Within the parameters that have been set from the movies. Again, Shuri literally asks T'Challa if they are going to Disneyland. This is the core problem with the MCU's integration.

I think what you guys hate is that they overdid it (Mission Breakout, not the Iron Man Experience). Indirectly by declaring itself real - they've declared everything else within that resort as fake. Tony on the other hand doesn't break the illusion that Tomorrowland is still supposed to be some sort of fantasy future showcase/world of tomorrow.

I'm not disagreeing per say, I just think that the whole concept that these characters really do know about the parks does not have to be a flawed. 'Apparently' this is part of the greater plan that all the attractions (by remaining unique), sort of form a cohesive theme park pocket universe. I actually think that's a strong/bold idea, but the start has been so stop and go we aren't seeing it yet. Mission Breakout still being relegated to a dying land it wasn't meant for.

It’s clever and bold but I think the concept falls apart the longer you look at it. They are relying on declaring the parks as fake, which to me is arrogant and inconsistent with how Disney parks have always operated.

If I’m at DCA, at what point (currently) do I take myself out of the immersive environments and remind myself that Disneyland and DCA are all fake? When I see MB from BS Street? When I enter Hollywood Land? When I enter the queue for MB? How can I immerse myself in 1920s Los Angeles when looming in the background I see a building that serves as a literal reminder than I’m not in 1920s Los Angeles?

 

[Rich T]

It’s clever and bold but I think the concept falls apart the longer you look at it. They are relying on declaring the parks as fake, which to me is arrogant and inconsistent with how Disney parks have always operated.

If I’m at DCA, at what point (currently) do I take myself out of the immersive environments and remind myself that Disneyland and DCA are all fake? When I see MB from BS Street? When I enter Hollywood Land? When I enter the queue for MB? How can I immerse myself in 1920s Los Angeles when looming in the background I see a building that serves as a literal reminder than I’m not in 1920s Los Angeles?

This "you're all tourists and everything here is fake" started up in the Michael Eisner era, mainly at Epcot and Disney/MGM.

But, you know what I want from "immersion?" I just want to know that I'm in a really fantastic theme park that has its own identity. DL has done this so well, and I really hope the Iger era changes don't harm that. On Main Street, no one believes for a second, even in a pretend-sense, that they're in a midwestern small town. They believe they're on *Main Street* in *Disneyland* and that's always been enough. DL is its own very real place, and its a place people have loved to be because it just works as a fantastic collage of experiences.

DCA was on the right track up until Mission Breakdown and Pixar Pier. Right now, it seems Disney's doing everything it can to wreck every bit of identity the park had managed to build up. Now it just seems like a huge flea market of unrelated IPs that do not flow together in any kind of way that works.

 

[mickEblu]

This "you're all tourists and everything here is fake" started up in the Michael Eisner era, mainly at Epcot and Disney/MGM.

But, you know what I want from "immersion?" I just want to know that I'm in a really fantastic theme park that has its own identity. DL has done this so well, and I really hope the Iger era changes don't harm that. On Main Street, no one believes for a second, even in a pretend-sense, that they're in a midwestern small town. They believe they're on *Main Street* in *Disneyland* and that's always been enough. DL is its own very real place, and its a place people have loved to be because it just works as a fantastic collage of experiences.

DCA was on the right track up until Mission Breakdown and Pixar Pier. Right now, it seems Disney's doing everything it can to wreck every bit of identity the park had managed to build up. Now it just seems like a huge flea market of unrelated IPs that do not flow together in any kind of way that works.

Agreed. The only thing I’d add is that I think it’s a phenomenon that happens over time. When Disneyland / Main Street first opened maybe people of a certain age were able to be nostalgic of a time and place they were very young. Over time the nostalgia and association becomes with Disneyland itself and not the place it was originally themed after. Subconsciously the original intention always remains though.

 

[Hatbox Ghostbuster]

No one needs to question why Indiana Jones is located in Adventureland...but what do we do with his final lines at the end "Tourists! Next time, you're on your own!"

Actually, I found the full transcript for the attraction and depending on which cycle of the dialogue you get, Indy is pretty funny. I don't think I've heard all these lines.

INDIANA JONES:
Great… I ask for help and they send me tourists. Swerve left — up to the left. Ugh, you had to look, didn’t you? Tourists! You had to look, didn’t you? Oh, we’ve got a problem here. Turn left! Up to the left — and watch it, there’s big steps up there! You looked?! There’s powers here you can’t possibly comprehend. Quick — take the left passage! It’s the only way out. Ugh, ugh, nice driving pal!

(Vehicles turn left and pass through temple chambers and across the bridge. Upon entering the chamber filled with snakes, a giant cobra tries to strike.)

INDIANA JONES:
Snakes? You guys are on your own! Careful. Watch out for anything that slithers.

(Vehicles pass through a chamber crawling with rats and then past spear-wielding warriors trying to hit the vehicle. Suddenly, the vehicles approach INDIANA JONES hanging from rope under giant boulder.)

INDIANA JONES:
Careful down there. I’ve got a bad feeling about this, ugh. Uh-oh, uh-oh, get me out of here! Hey, it’s dark down here! A rescue — just what I need… Uh-oh, careful! We got company! Sallah, get some light down here! There you are. Let me in! Let me in! Uh-oh, no. Get me out! Get me out! Hey, get a light on down here! You made it! Uh-oh, back up! Back up!

(Vehicles dive under the boulder and narrowly miss getting crushed. Rounding a corner, INDIANA JONES is seen standing next to the cracked boulder.)

INDIANA JONES:
Next time, you wear blindfolds, okay? There. That wasn’t so bad, was it? Tourists! Next time, you’re on your own. Ugh, now, don’t tell me that wasn’t big fun. Tourists, why does it have to be tourists? Not bad — for tourists. Now, stay out of trouble, will ya? You were good. You were very, very good.

(Vehicles return to unload area.)

 

[Kram Sacul]

No one needs to question why Indiana Jones is located in Adventureland...but what do we do with his final lines at the end "Tourists! Next time, you're on your own!"

Actually, I found the full transcript for the attraction and depending on which cycle of the dialogue you get, Indy is pretty funny. I don't think I've heard all these lines.

INDIANA JONES:
Great… I ask for help and they send me tourists. Swerve left — up to the left. Ugh, you had to look, didn’t you? Tourists! You had to look, didn’t you? Oh, we’ve got a problem here. Turn left! Up to the left — and watch it, there’s big steps up there! You looked?! There’s powers here you can’t possibly comprehend. Quick — take the left passage! It’s the only way out. Ugh, ugh, nice driving pal!

(Vehicles turn left and pass through temple chambers and across the bridge. Upon entering the chamber filled with snakes, a giant cobra tries to strike.)

INDIANA JONES:
Snakes? You guys are on your own! Careful. Watch out for anything that slithers.

(Vehicles pass through a chamber crawling with rats and then past spear-wielding warriors trying to hit the vehicle. Suddenly, the vehicles approach INDIANA JONES hanging from rope under giant boulder.)

INDIANA JONES:
Careful down there. I’ve got a bad feeling about this, ugh. Uh-oh, uh-oh, get me out of here! Hey, it’s dark down here! A rescue — just what I need… Uh-oh, careful! We got company! Sallah, get some light down here! There you are. Let me in! Let me in! Uh-oh, no. Get me out! Get me out! Hey, get a light on down here! You made it! Uh-oh, back up! Back up!

(Vehicles dive under the boulder and narrowly miss getting crushed. Rounding a corner, INDIANA JONES is seen standing next to the cracked boulder.)

INDIANA JONES:
Next time, you wear blindfolds, okay? There. That wasn’t so bad, was it? Tourists! Next time, you’re on your own. Ugh, now, don’t tell me that wasn’t big fun. Tourists, why does it have to be tourists? Not bad — for tourists. Now, stay out of trouble, will ya? You were good. You were very, very good.

(Vehicles return to unload area.)

As explained in the preshow film the tourists that Indiana Jones refers to are tourists of the Forbidden Eye temple not Disneyland tourists specifically. ::wink::