The Living Seas of Old Epcot

[AEfx]

So the entire of PotterLand for $200 million or a single Mermaid ride for $100 million.

OMGosh, LOL. I am so tired of seeing that statement.

They never gave us a line item itemization, it's quite likely that the 100M included R&D for the attraction, recording of audio, etc., and construction of TWO rides on TWO coasts.

I'd say each ride probably cost 30-40M to build, which would leave 20M for all the back-end work that applied to both parks.

 

[Innoventions]

All true and all lost on the average mindless guest looking for the next roller coaster.

Very sad and true

I love how every building in EPCOT Center "failed as an attraction" (World of Motion, Horizons, pre-Ellen UoE, the Living Seas, Cronkite Spaceship Earth, Cranium Command, Body Wars, Kitchen Kabaret, El Rio del Tiempo), yet EPCOT Center had the #2 or #3 largest attendance (after MK and Disneyland) of any theme park in America for decades. It was the world's most attended "failed" theme park. :animwink:

Thats because everyone of those did. Not fail to be amazing attractions, ones that were immersive, creative, and educational (why i loved epcot soo much), but failed to be what the average guest wanted. Which in the scheme of things is what matters.

I wish many of these old attractions were still around, and I miss the hydrolators, the sunset mural behind the waves crashing. I miss all the attractions you previously stated, and still love what they stood for.

But if Disney was to keep everything we love, and refurb everything how a few Disney Geeks (including myself) want it to be, speaking realistically, I find it hard for Disney to succeed. Not because of creativity, emersion, education, great story line etc... but because its not a thrill ride, or its too long, or people just dont get it. Its sad, but true.

I take the Nemo refurb in two ways, both positive and negative. On one side, Im extremely happy to see the seas have traffic, and attention. Im happy that much of the same message is being relayed to people, again through another facade but still much of the same message. But then I look at it as, one of my favorite attractions and experiences is gone. One of my fondest memories is not riding, but when the hydralotors were coming, the pools of water on the outside would bubble acting as if the elevator was descending.

The original ride sparked a fascination and respect for the sea, as much as we can argue that the theming is not there, can we not agree that it does the same thing educational wise, to this generation of Kids and Visitors.

 

[Fractal514]

Ok, but was Epcot attendance low, or just not as high as Disney might have wanted. I think what we have here is Disney wanting to get the park jam packed, and sacrificing the original educational and less family oriented theme of Future World.

They have every right to do that as a business. It just means they gain customers, and lose my respect. Not that big of a loss to them, and that's probably why they aren't on these boards and lamenting. But it is a big loss to me, and that's why I AM here.

 

[forevermickey]

I loved the older version of Living Seas..... I understand when they "update" an attraction it is because of low attendance or maintenance issues. Obviously Nemo is to attract the younger kids and my daughter likes it. I do feel they could of mixed the futuristic theme of Epcot with a little Nemo splashed in, but I am sure budget always places the roll of what we actually get.

and I loved the Hydrolaters (sp) as well! :wave:

 

[SleepingMonk]

OMGosh, LOL. I am so tired of seeing that statement.

They never gave us a line item itemization, it's quite likely that the 100M included R&D for the attraction, recording of audio, etc., and construction of TWO rides on TWO coasts.

I'd say each ride probably cost 30-40M to build, which would leave 20M for all the back-end work that applied to both parks.

We're both playing the guessing game here, but that cuts both ways.

The $200 million estimate was for all of Wizarding World, not just the FJ ride. So split that between the new ride, two ride refurbs, shop and restaurant construction, etc...

So I ask again, who got the most value for their dollar?

Disney needs to clean house in Imagineering, plain and simple.

 

[a2grafix]

People don't seem to realize that Sea Base still has all the features it always had. Maybe a little less fish in the main tank... but theres still thousands of them in there. They still have scuba divers in the main tank, in the glass tube multiple times a day, dolphin presentations, etc.

Like it or not, the ride saved the pavilion from a much worse fate. My biggest problem with the ride is that it has no thing to do with Epcot - the style would be much more suited for a Fantasyland attraction. If they had to use Nemo, it could have been you going on a field trip with Mr. Ray, Nemo, and friends as he explains the coral reef and different creatures, or something along those lines.[/QUOTE

Don't want to open another avenue, but in another reality where 20K was still around much like the submarine ride was still around at Disneyland, yes I could see Nemo and Friends in an overlay at the old 20K ride site. The Disneyland version pretty much is the ride in the Living Seas upgrade.

But since 20K was shut down at the Magic Kingdom in our reality, transformed into a meet and greet with Ariel, and then became the temp spot for Pooh's 100-acre woods play area until it was moved across the street to the Pooh ride for the expanded Fantasyland expansion, we are not and won't see what Disneyland was able to do with a Nemo submarine overlay.

After riding the Nemo subs in 2010, and comparing the ride to Epcot's Seas pavilion, I think it much more appeals to what Anaheim created. Not taking anything away from Orlando's creative minds, Orlando did what they did to spruce up the space.

Hopefully some day a new 20K ride will resurface somewhere in Orlando, be it at Animal Kingdom or some future development like DisneySea.

But in the interim, Nemo and Friends is a pretty nice attraction and the Seas pavilion is quite popular once again. As well I am glad the submarines are still alive in some form at a Disney park (Anaheim and Tokyo).

 

[Spike-in-Berlin]

Hopefully some day a new 20K ride will resurface somewhere in Orlando, be it at Animal Kingdom or some future development like DisneySea.

That is a pretty good idea for a poll and a new thread.

 

[Master Yoda]

We're both playing the guessing game here, but that cuts both ways.

The $200 million estimate was for all of Wizarding World, not just the FJ ride. So split that between the new ride, two ride refurbs, shop and restaurant construction, etc...

So I ask again, who got the most value for their dollar?

Disney needs to clean house in Imagineering, plain and simple.

I heard that US paid 5 billion dollars for the WWoHP expansion and that the entire FL expansion will only cost 20 million.

Can you prove me wrong? No.

The numbers are made up. At best they are estimates. Trying to use fabricated and unreliable information as the basis of a logical argument is impossible. If Disney and Universal ever release the actual costs of either expansion then you can talk about who got more bang for their buck.

 

[erasure fan1]

If it was flawless, then it wouldn't have failed as an attraction.

I know what you mean, it had a cohesive theme and a creative element with Seabase Alpha. But I think you guys are looking at the ride through rose-colored glasses a bit. After all, what was the actual ride? A very short trip through the aquarium which you could see better by walking around Seabase anyway.

Exactly, If people were breaking down the doors, I really dont think they would have changed it.

Both sides in this argument seem to have wanted the same thing, a refurb that was an expansion on the ideas of the original attraction. What the people who seem to hate the Nemo overlay dont get is that the risk/cost of doing it was too great. The original concept didnt hold up over time so why would they risk doing it again and the same thing happening? Nemo is by no means my #1 choice and when they announced it, I was pretty scared at what the result would be. When it opened I was happy with the results and was extremely happy with the renewed interest in the pavillion.

 

[SleepingMonk]

I heard that US paid 5 billion dollars for the WWoHP expansion and that the entire FL expansion will only cost 20 million.

Can you prove me wrong? No.

The numbers are made up. At best they are estimates. Trying to use fabricated and unreliable information as the basis of a logical argument is impossible. If Disney and Universal ever release the actual costs of either expansion then you can talk about who got more bang for their buck.

I said as much in my post, they're both estimates and we're both playing the guessing game.

However, I haven't seen anything from "insider rumors" to verified SEC filings that come close to the numbers you posted. Chances are the figures I quoted in my post are fairly accurate, which is good enough for message board speculation and discussion.

Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Glasgow]

On the inside of my fridge there is a label that lists the features on it and one of them says "Twin Hydrators" .. makes me think of the hydrolators every time .. ha. When I was a kid those were the best - really miss those. It was just one of those small things that triggered your imagination.

Do you notice know that the information age is doing away with a lot of the imagination? Why imagine when you can just pull it up on your phone and see or know? Just a fact of life and one of those things .. just a part of growing up

 

[Figments Friend]

Instead of scrapping the idea they should have updated it where needed and kept with the theme of the park.

You boarded a hydrolator and got the chance to travel to an undersea base complete with divers, robots and visions of the future. That sparked your imagination, that made you excited for the future, that made you want to learn and explore.

Now you get a cheap tie-in to a crap movie about a lost dinner entree.

I miss my EPCOT.

Wow.....:lol:

This pretty much sums things up nicely.

I miss 'our' EPCOT too.

 

[Figments Friend]

........It is neither story driven or experiential. Nemo is missing, let's play a big game of hide and seek and take attention away from real fish, is NOT a strong ride. At least not in my opinion. I don't doubt that kids love the ride, but that's not surprising. Mc Donalds does very well, but you'd have a hard time arguing that it has high quality, just familiar taste. That's what has happened to Epcot in this case, they replaced high quality with familiar taste and so, yes, now it's packed, but I don't think it is nearly as inspiring or memorable......

Agree completely with this sentiment. Yes, the Nemo overlay does bring in the families again, and keep most there for a while. Heck, Nemo and his friends may even inspire some kids to want to actually learn more about the ocean enviroment and it's residents....but the 'familar taste' and easy marketing potential ( and thus immediate appeal) of the familar and popular characters with Joe/Jane Public ruled out any chance of something truly remarkable.

As much as i am not a huge fan of the new overlay, i will admit however that the Nemo overly did bring some much needed attention to the Pavillion. It also saved it from being closed and gutted. There is still plenty of 'old school' EPCOT left in the building to keep things interesting...but i will admit the character overlay has helped attract crowds.

I might not be personally keen on the overlay..but i understand why it was done, and can appreciate what it did to help bring what was indeed a 'dead' Pavillion back to life.

I miss those Hydrolaytors though....man those were great fun!

 

[Figments Friend]

In my opinion, like many others have said, Nemo saved the pavilion. Besides a few die hards, like myself, that would go, the Living Seas was seeing horrible attendance, with the refurb it becomes a destination for families

I loved the original Sea Base Alpha theme, and still have memorabilia from it, I miss it tremendously, but a group of a few Disney die hards and myself could not save the attraction. Its either a nemo overlay, or a barren pavilion :shrug:, you decide.

And, to defend this version a little bit, it fits perfectly in with the idea of Epcot. Not only does it create interest in learning, but there are still many opportunities for kids (as well as adults) to learn about the seas. Nemo just creates the interest, but the people inside the pavilion are what teach it. Id argue that this is probably the best pavilion at Epcot (besides maybe the Universe of Energy and Spaceship Earth) that stays true to the original intent of Epcot Center. People are not only riding an attraction, but they are learning as well. Cant say that for Soarin, cant say that for Test Track, Cant say that for Mission Space.

The reality is Nemo fits in here, and its awesome to see kids become fascinated with the Ocean. I dont have kids, but Im willing to bet that many get off the ride, explore the tanks and other displays within the pavilion, and after leaving cant wait to share what they learned. It gets and keeps all ages interested, thats a big accomplishment.

Again I miss the old version, but I enjoy this version a lot, and see the brilliance in it.

GREAT post.



Sums up nicely the pros and cons of both versions of this Pavillion.

 

[muteki]

If it was flawless, then it wouldn't have failed as an attraction.

I know what you mean, it had a cohesive theme and a creative element with Seabase Alpha. But I think you guys are looking at the ride through rose-colored glasses a bit. After all, what was the actual ride? A very short trip through the aquarium which you could see better by walking around Seabase anyway.

I think the point of the original attraction is being lost on you. The "actual ride" was the Seabase itself. The seacabs, hydrolators, etc. is just the adventure in getting there, not the real reason you are there. Its like basing the overall value of the MK only on the experience of riding a monorail or boat to get there.

 

[thelookingglass]

Well then the actual attraction from the original Living Seas is still there, just with different colors on the walls.

 

[ChrisFL]

At least the original Living Seas had an original story...all Nemo did was repeat the same story from the movie as a second time Nemo gets lost.

 

[woodardfamily]

Agreed it is such a shame they put this Nemo overlay in. It doesn't fit in FW!

A talking fish sounds pretty futuristic to me.:lol:

 

[Animaniac93-98]

The only thing I miss from old Living Seas were the hydrolators. Given the choice between them and the Nemo ride, I'll take the ride.

 

[Mr_Incredible]

To be fair, Nemo is what we used to get my 3 year old son on the ride. The beautiful tanks, information, coral reefs, REAL fish, etc etc are what kept us in the aquarium for 2 hours. Seriously....my son wouldnt leave. 2 hours. And THAT imo, is what it's all about.