The Hometown Rivalry. Even Meg Crofton was impressed by Potter.

[Master Yoda]

Can't argue with that. Very smart business plan. To be fair to the creators behind IOA they had no choice. Disney was well established by then with more than just the Magic Kingdom and had a history of 30 years they had to give their best game.


Just out of curiosity I honestly don't have a known list. From 71 to 81, the magic kingdom's first ten years what was added? With the exception of Pirates of The Caribbean.

Quite a bit as this time line will show. http://www.orlando-florida.net/walt-disney-world/resources/timeline.htm Some of the highlights added in the first 10 years were COP, If you had Wings, TSI, the afore mentioned POTC, astro orbiter, Space mountain, people mover, mission to mars, and BTMRR.

 

[flavious27]

Can't argue with that. Very smart business plan. To be fair to the creators behind IOA they had no choice. Disney was well established by then with more than just the Magic Kingdom and had a history of 30 years they had to give their best game.


Just out of curiosity I honestly don't have a known list. From 71 to 81, the magic kingdom's first ten years what was added? With the exception of Pirates of The Caribbean.

I'll agree and they did a better job opening IOA then dl did with dca. And for both IOA and DCA, both teams didn't do as well trying to fix problems and maintain growth. But IOA's team is bringing in better growth numbers for a smaller price, it will be that they need to maintain the numbers they will peak at this year. In the long run, DCA will be a bigger success story if IOA's team goes back to what they were doing before.

 

[RSoxNo1]

The big thing to look at with regards to IOA's attendance is how much it dropped in the two years leading up to Harry Potter

Islands of Adventure Attendance
2007: 5,430,000
2008: 5,297,000
2009: 4,627,000

For the record, Animal Kingdom since Everest:

2005: 8,200,000
2006: 8,910,000
2007: 9,490,000
2008: 9,540,000
2009: 9,590,000

 

[flavious27]

I'm more curious of how Universal is planning on sustaining these numbers, as they will wane. I would guess either Poseidon's Fury or the Sindbad show have their days numbered. Diagon Alley would be a good choice. The issue for Universal is that, as far as I know, there isn't too much space for actual expansion, so that will make it difficult to ever get their attendance up to Disney levels.

Regardless, the competition is good. I went to WDW in 2009 and just returned again and the only new things were the return of Captain EO and the MSEP. I don't ever remember going 1.5 years without a bona fide new ride opening (there was a time when an E-Ticket opened roughly yearly...).

There is a good way and a bad way to maintain the growth or at the minimum keep their numbers up. I fear that the rest of LC will turn into potterland, which is a shame because LC had a theme they could grow from. I don't think that jurassic park island will last that much longer, but what they do there should be a theme and not based entirely on a single franchise.

Seuss Island can still be updated because there is a vast library to pull from and movies that have been made after the park opened.

 

[flavious27]

The big thing to look at with regards to IOA's attendance is how much it dropped in the two years leading up to Harry Potter

Islands of Adventure Attendance
2007: 5,430,000
2008: 5,297,000
2009: 4,627,000

For the record, Animal Kingdom since Everest:

2005: 8,200,000
2006: 8,910,000
2007: 9,490,000
2008: 9,540,000
2009: 9,590,000

I hate being a devil's advocate, but hasn't other rides been added to dak since EE that are more FF?

 

[fosse76]

I fail to understand your point.

I am trying to get away from a nonsensical percent and drive the conversation with some sort of realism in relation to both the attendance of WDW and Uni. Thirty-six percent has absolutely no context regarding attendance as it would be almost impossible, for example, MK to post that large of an increase.

But we can do it based on hard numbers. When's the last time any one individual Disney park had an increase of 1.6 million guests in a year? IOA did it in four months. That's my point. You are right that percentages aren't a great comparison in this respect because we are dealing with an entirely different set of numbers. But to be dismissive of 1.6 million guests is short sighted. And that because it is a small percent of Disney's attendance doesn't mean Disney isn't feeling that loss. 1.6 million is a lot of people.

I've never denied that Disney has lost some business to Potterland. I think it would be stupid to assume otherwise. However, the context of how much has been lost is completely out of hand.

It's all speculative...until the unofficial theme park attendance reports come out, we won't have an idea of what Magic Kingdom's attendance figures look like. Even if we assume that most of the 1.6 million are people who were vacationing at Disney and took a day trip (or two) to Universal, we know that Disney had no attendance surge.

However, I have experienced your divination of other posters in various threads, so I will be interested to see what I really mean sub-consciously in this discussion.

That was uneccessary. I know how to read between lines, and the poster you are referring this comment was a text-book case on the psychology of closed-minded people.

 

[fosse76]

The big thing to look at with regards to IOA's attendance is how much it dropped in the two years leading up to Harry Potter

Islands of Adventure Attendance
2007: 5,430,000
2008: 5,297,000
2009: 4,627,000

For the record, Animal Kingdom since Everest:

2005: 8,200,000
2006: 8,910,000
2007: 9,490,000
2008: 9,540,000
2009: 9,590,000

What did it look like before Everest? Just curious. My first trip ever to WDW was in 2006.

 

[flavious27]

You seem to illustrate my point after trying to counter it. Disney didn't release figures, but admitted that all of its worldwide properties, EXCEPT Walt Disney World, saw an increase in attendance. However, their reports only account for U.S. parks, whose attendance remained flat. For The parks to remain flat and Disneyland to have increased attendance, WDW had to have lost attendance...which they won't admit. No one is saying that the decrease is coming specifically from the Magic Kingdom. I think you are implying that other people have implied that it's from the Magic Kingdom.

As for Jakeman, thanks for getting the numbers. But 1.6 million people is 1.6 million people. That's a lot of people. Do you really think Disney WOULDN'T want them? Or that they would want to lose them to Universal, even if only for a day. If we assume that all 1.6 million people only came to Orlando for Harry Potter but stayed for Disney, then that means, with flat attendance and without Harry Potter, Disney would have lost 1.6 million people in attendance. Alternatively, if those 1.6 million people merely took a day or two out their Disney vacation, it still means Disney lost 1.6 million visitors. Obviously that's not happened. There are dozens of scenarios, but either way, Disney lost guests. Crofton is doing a lot of spin, plain and simple. Potter only moderately helped them.

There will be spin about the numbers, there already has been. IOA and Uni have been in a decline for a couple of year with their attendance and the 1.6 million number is about what they have lost before they opened wwhp.

TDO can't wait a couple years before they react.

 

[flavious27]

Are you asking how much IOA has added in the last 10 years?

Honestly they opened the park with a full day's worth of attractions unlike when MGM and AK opened. There were MANY (if we're using the Disney measurement) E-Ticket attractions:

Incredible Hulk
Dueling Dragons Fire
Dueling Dragons Ice
Spiderman
JP River Adventure
Pluto's Bilge Rat Barges
Ripsaw Falls

I would say most of those fall into the "E-ticket" category (although I'm sure someone will disagree)

Well really hulk, dd and spiderman would be true e-ticket rides, the others a d-ticket rides.

 

[jakeman]

But we can do it based on hard numbers. When's the last time any one individual Disney park had an increase of 1.6 million guests in a year? IOA did it in four months. That's my point. You are right that percentages aren't a great comparison in this respect because we are dealing with an entirely different set of numbers. But to be dismissive of 1.6 million guests is short sighted. And that because it is a small percent of Disney's attendance doesn't mean Disney isn't feeling that loss. 1.6 million is a lot of people.

It's all speculative...until the unofficial theme park attendance reports come out, we won't have an idea of what Magic Kingdom's attendance figures look like. Even if we assume that most of the 1.6 million are people who were vacationing at Disney and took a day trip (or two) to Universal, we know that Disney had no attendance surge.

Why do you just keep repeating facts? They don't change nor have I disputed any of them.

There really isn't any addition to the discussion.

I've been very clear that it's not dismissive, simply not the boon that 36% would imply.

That was uneccessary. I know how to read between lines, and the poster you are referring this comment was a text-book case on the psychology of closed-minded people.

Are you a psychologist, a lawyer, or both? Because you seem to think you are qualified to speak as both. Good for you if you are.

 

[hokielutz]

What did it look like before Everest? Just curious. My first trip ever to WDW was in 2006.

The point is that the IOA attendance had room to grow. They lost a million + visitors over time... but then gained that back plus half (according to unconfirmed sources on here) to get IOA back to some of their original park levels from their early years.

Also I really find it amusing that general expectations on here are that Disney needs to produce a new E-ticket ride every 1.5 years (or a similar time frame). Yet none of the rehab work, painting and touchup, scrims around buildings make any positive impact on how Disney is perceived. Wasn't it this board that complained years ago that the mouse did not do enough maintenance, touch-up work etc. Have they not tried to improve that part of their operations?
:brick:

Yes I know the Yeti is still not fixed, but other than that....

 

[T-1MILLION]

Also I really find it amusing that general expectations on here are that Disney needs to produce a new E-ticket ride every 1.5 years (or a similar time frame). Yet none of the rehab work, painting and touchup, scrims around buildings make any positive impact on how Disney is perceived. Wasn't it this board that complained years ago that the mouse did not do enough maintenance, touch-up work etc. Have they not tried to improve that part of their operations?
:brick:

Disney has four world class theme parks in FL. The most visited theme park resort in the world. A new major attraction of some sort is not really out of the question to expect every two years or so. Not in every park, but something in the WDW's parks.

The second part is kind of funny. Sure, its great and nice that they are upkeeping attractions. However...that is what it should be. General maintenance and upkeep. For how much people pay to go I don't think that should be overly commended. With Disney it should be expected.

 

[askmike1]

Disney would get the money from the hotel rooms, but they loss the money spent on tickets and food in the parks.

How does that logic work? Disney getting more resort guests means Disney loses ticket/food money? Because you have loads of people staying at a Disney resort and never going to its parks/food service locations?

tdo has said many times that pi was closed because it wasn't FF, it wasn't because clubs were empty.

Never claimed that. Pleasure Island is closed now and the buildings are (just about) all empty. PI will never come back (and shouldn't in my opinion). So we can leave the buildings empty, living in the past, or we can move forward.

Is it your assertion that DTD in some way outshines CityWalk?

That is neither my assertion or opinion. I believe they are both good in their own ways. What I was asserting is that Citywalk and DTD are directly comparable just as the Disney Theme Parks are directly comparable to their Universal counterparts (ie, it wouldn't make sense to compare DTD to IoA, nor would it make sense to compare Citywalk to the Boardwalk).

Yes. I hope I never decide to make a trip to WDW just because there is a new hotel to stay at.


Yes. I'm sure the new Landry's Landing...oops, I mean Hyperion Wharf, will be great for the hotel guests that are dying for some shopping and dining after a day at the parks.

Just for the record, these two were not my posts, the quote tags got messed up.

Seems like a hostage situation.

I don't see it as a hostage situation... if you want to go to a competing resort, you are more than able to (and if you ask your hotel staff, they will gladly explain how to do so). For those who REALLY want to visit somewhere else, they will not be stopped. What this does help with are those that are on-the-border of spending a day somewhere else.

But...comparing HW to PI before it's assassination...not even close.

For those who liked clubs yes... but there were and are many people who aren't into that. There are plenty of places in Orlando to go to clubs and bars and the repercussions that come with having a land dedicated to those institutions is not something Disney wishes to have on them (and lets be honest, as we neared the end of PI, most of its crowd were Cast Members).

Both ST2 and LM were developed and approved first for California. Seriously, if DCA weren't getting LM...MK wouldn't be getting it.


The whole "family friendly" smokescreen is just that....smoke.
They are changing the business model over there purely for financial reasons. It's easier for them to be a landlord to third-party restaurants and shops than to do it themselves.
So goodbye Disney quality theming, story and "magic", and hello to the same shopping and dining you can find in almost any major city across the country.

Yawn.

Cynicism and delusions I see run rampant here just like some other forums.

Clones take away the need for people to visit both when they really want to see those major attractions.

Two things here...

1. Funny how TSM and ToT are vastly popular in both parks (and throughout the world for the latter)
2. Space Mountain, Splash Mountain, Small World, Peter Pan, Thunder Mountain, Haunted Mansion, Pirates of the Caribbean, Jungle Cruise, ..... the list goes on and on, the argument that "cloned" attractions diminishes the value of going to one park or an other is just a silly silly argument that has no evidence on its side. Funny how the top 4 theme parks in the world (2009) were Magic Kingdom, Disneyland, Tokyo Disneyland and Disneyland Paris, essentially 4 parks built from the same blueprints.

Again to the original point of this thread... WWoHP is a great (though certainly imperfect) land that provides a great "re-start" for Universal and a great competitive encouragement for Disney.

 

[Pumbas Nakasak]

The point is that the IOA attendance had room to grow. They lost a million + visitors over time... but then gained that back plus half (according to unconfirmed sources on here) to get IOA back to some of their original park levels from their early years.

Also I really find it amusing that general expectations on here are that Disney needs to produce a new E-ticket ride every 1.5 years (or a similar time frame). Yet none of the rehab work, painting and touchup, scrims around buildings make any positive impact on how Disney is perceived. Wasn't it this board that complained years ago that the mouse did not do enough maintenance, touch-up work etc. Have they not tried to improve that part of their operations?
:brick:

Yes I know the Yeti is still not fixed, but other than that....

Id watch all that head banging its affecting your mental capacity.

Lets all cheer Disney are changing burnt out bulbs. And if your having to invent things to support a post you really have to wonder of your starting on shaky ground.

 

[T-1MILLION]

Well of course the classic Disneyland pop culture attractions are all popular, that is the reason many of them were cloned.

Yet I gurantee you that if Star Tours of FL was for some freak reason the only one in existance you would see more visitors eventually going there because the draw is there for Star Wars fans all over the world.

Again, not that it makes a huge difference because it all goes to Disney in some form or another but Disney is not immune to saturating the market.


Californians that want to visit Harry Potter, can't just be ok with going to Universal Studios Hollywood. FL is the only place in the world with The Wizarding World attractions.

If you are fine with clones that is one thing. I am glad we got MK and all, but the less cloning the better.

 

[C.FERNIE]

My two cents... I think the harry potter world whoo haa will die down pretty soon... Disney has so many things going for it, customer service, the experiance, the detail, the cast members, which i think Universal has always missed the chance on, they have tried but not done so well... I like going to Universal but we usually keep it to one day to the two parks because something always ends up going on that is never resolved or helped by their system over there, i dont blame there staff because ive had amazing service from a lot of them but some just don't care! and i know there always one in the herd that causes a problem but disney seems more capable of dealing with it and resolving it. :wave:

 

[hokielutz]

Id watch all that head banging its affecting your mental capacity.

Lets all cheer Disney are changing burnt out bulbs. And if your having to invent things to support a post you really have to wonder of your starting on shaky ground.

Its not inventing... it is the implied expectation of many in this thread and several other like it that continually lament that nothing has happened in Disney for the last 15 years. Maybe its 2 years, maybe its one.... or something along that ballpark.

 

[askmike1]

Well of course the classic Disneyland pop culture attractions are all popular, that is the reason many of them were cloned.

Yet I gurantee you that if Star Tours of FL was for some freak reason the only one in existance you would see more visitors eventually going there because the draw is there for Star Wars fans all over the world.

But you just said it, they are popular. TSM has 60+ minute waits on a daily basis (even in off seasons)... does it matter that there is another one in California? Space Mountain is extremely popular in all of its parks, do the other ones hurt because of the original in MK? These attractions are 99% of the time the same attractions in a different setting (is there one clone with identical theming and effects) which doesn't stop people from coming and enhance their "fitting-ness" in the parks they are put in.

Californians that want to visit Harry Potter, can't just be ok with going to Universal Studios Hollywood. FL is the only place in the world with The Wizarding World attractions.

Don't confuse them not doing it with them not wanting to do it.

 

[T-1MILLION]

But you just said it, they are popular. TSM has 60+ minute waits on a daily basis (even in off seasons)... QUOTE]

TSM is popular, but the wait(besides having another movie just out and being new) is more due to shotty capacity than it is to its popularity.


And yeah..no one wants to visit The Wizarding World in FL...clearly. California has Transformers in the works, they are fine without Potter. I don't like the movies but tons of people do, and the ride is going to likely be very signifigant.

 

[Testtrack321]

I still say toss out Toon Lagoon and make it another Potterland.

SURPRISE: No one cares about Duddle Do-Rights, Poppeye, or any other "classic" comic strip characters. It was the weakest land, and still is.