The Hometown Rivalry. Even Meg Crofton was impressed by Potter.

[T-1MILLION]

Let's put this into perspective just a bit. Since WWoHP premiered and in the comping years, Disney has/will debut the Disney Dream and Disney Fantasy cruise ships, Fantasyland Expansion, Star Tours 2.0, Hyperion Wharf (along with other changes to DTD) and Art of Animation Resort, not to mention all the smaller changes (new parades, shows, etc). In that time and what we know of in the future... what is Universal doing/adding to its Florida assets?

Cruise ships are irrelevent to the theme park division. Entirely different part of the company and market.

A new hotel is not an attraction, it is a resort.

Downtown Disney is a shopping district. Again (possibly) nice for the resorts but not an attraction for the theme parks.

Both Universal Orlando parks got E tickets open last year, even if I really don't like Rockit with all its ugly problems and my issues with it...its still an E ticket.

Since Potter was announced by Universal they also got many smaller attractions at the Studios and one semi major one. These include Disaster! and The Simpsons and Hollywood Rip Ride Rockit.


The only real attraction that has opened since Universal announced potter was Toy Story Mania...which was a clone.

The next two attractions coming (Star Tours and Mermaid) are also Clones.

 

[flavious27]

The answer was never FLE.

Pretty much anyone with a passing knowledge of the project that extends beyond internet ramblings has stated as much.

Secondly, and apologies if I missed this, I've asked before, what the capacity of IOA?

According to private event bookings it's 20,000. I would assume that is a low estimate.

I have mentioned that uni and ioa pulled in about the same as dak combines last year. An increase of million guests for them is going to effect their bottom line more than wdw, but it will still be a hit with ripples throughout the property. The neighbors down the street won't ever rival wdw's total attendance, but they can draw away revenue that disney needs and hurts wdw's growth.

disney has said that fle is not a direct competitor to wwhp, but my question is what did tdo plan and do after jk left them? fle is the largest investment since that point at wdw.

 

[T-1MILLION]

I have mentioned that uni and ioa pulled in about the same as dak combines last year. An increase of million guests for them is going to effect their bottom line more than wdw, but it will still be a hit with ripples throughout the property. The neighbors down the street won't ever rival wdw's total attendance, but they can draw away revenue that disney needs and hurts wdw's growth.

disney has said that fle is not a direct competitor to wwhp, but my question is what did tdo plan and do after jk left them? fle is the largest investment since that point at wdw.

Exactly and if these things now are not the competetive response..what will be?(by the way there is no doubt in my mind Potter was the final straw that finally pushed TDO to realize they should add these features to MK) Something that starts construction now won't be open for years. Kind of a slacking answer to Potter. They knew it was coming for a long time. I know quality takes time but five years later is not an answer.

 

[flavious27]

Exactly and if these things now are not the competetive response..what will be?(by the way there is no doubt in my mind Potter was the final straw that finally pushed TDO to realize they should add these features to MK) Something that starts construction now won't be open for years. Kind of a slacking answer to Potter. They knew it was coming for a long time. I know quality takes time but five years later is not an answer.

You can't rush or cheapen the magic unless you want a California adventure.

 

[askmike1]

Upgrades and replacements of rides. With the list of refurbs and fle, is tdo adding anything to attract us there more often?

Cruise ships are irrelevent to the theme park division. Entirely different part of the company and market.

A new hotel is not an attraction, it is a resort.

Downtown Disney is a shopping district. Again (possibly) nice for the resorts but not an attraction for the theme parks.[/quote]

Cruise ship - just as important as any theme park addition when those cruise ships are debuting in Florida. Along with the land/sea combos that are available, they both help Walt Disney Parks and Resorts and keep people away from Universal & Seaworld.

Resort - Keeping guests is just as important as getting guests. If people stay in a Disney resort, they are much more likely to stay on property. And the fact that they are opening additional value rooms and rarely seen family suites at value prices will encourage more people to stay.

Hyperion Wharf - Lets see... a bunch of empty nightclubs vs an energy-filled land with money-making restaurants and shops? Not to mention while they offer slightly different styles of entertainment, Downtown Disney is to City Walk what Disney's Theme Parks are to Universal's.

Star Tours - While it shares the same source story as the old version, this is a completely different ride experience (same basic layout/ride, new story/effects).

Both Universal Orlando parks got E tickets open last year, even if I really don't like Rockit with all its ugly problems and my issues with it...its still an E ticket.

Since Potter was announced by Universal they also got many smaller attractions at the Studios and one semi major one. These include Disaster! and The Simpsons and Hollywood Rip Ride Rockit.

LOL, I love when people contradict themselves and have the courtesy of doing it in a single post. Disaster! is a small redo of Earthquake (an attraction that has been in Universal for eons). The Simpsons is roughly equivilent to Star Tours in terms of upgrade (new experience, same basic ride system, new theming). And as for the WWoHP upgrade, you get 1 new E-Ticket (Forbidden Journey), a retheming (and I use that lightly) of another ride (Dueling Dragons) and some shops (which as you said previously is not an attraction for the theme parks).

The only real attraction that has opened since Universal announced potter was Toy Story Mania...which was a clone.

The next two attractions coming (Star Tours and Mermaid) are also Clones.

So I guess when attractions are built at the exact same time on both coasts simutaneously, it is a clone at WDW because..... that helps your argument? :brick:

 

[flavious27]

Resort - Keeping guests is just as important as getting guests. If people stay in a Disney resort, they are much more likely to stay on property. And the fact that they are opening additional value rooms and rarely seen family suites at value prices will encourage more people to stay.

Hyperion Wharf - Lets see... a bunch of empty nightclubs vs an energy-filled land with money-making restaurants and shops? Not to mention while they offer slightly different styles of entertainment, Downtown Disney is to City Walk what Disney's Theme Parks are to Universal's.

Disney would get the money from the hotel rooms, but they loss the money spent on tickets and food in the parks. From the figures given, uni is making an incredible amount on food and beverage alone.

tdo has said many times that pi was closed because it wasn't FF, it wasn't because clubs were empty. the wharf is just more chains and it kills any kind of adult nightlife on property. dtd already has many food options, the whole property has many different food options and most of them are FF.

 

[WDWFigment]

The answer to Disney's welcoming Potter is in the article:



There ya go. Sounds like Universal's plan is backfiring. :lol:

People coming to Orlando to experience Potter will be tempted to visit WDW and Disney knows that. So in reality Universal is drawing tourists for Disney.

The thing is, it cuts both ways. WDW is undoubtedly drawing guests down who then choose to visit Wizarding World. As the larger draw in Orlando, I would bet that Disney is drawing more guests for Universal than Universal is for Disney.

Disney may publically state that it’s benefitting from Potter in that guests are coming from Universal to visit its parks, that doesn’t mean it’s true. It also may be a ‘half-truth’ in that guests who came to visit Potter are then coming to visit Disney, but it neglects to mention that Disney is losing guests to Universal.

Even if Disney only loses guests for a day or two, those are still serious losses if they otherwise wouldn’t have occurred. Disney has gone to considerable lengths to prevent this in the past (Disney’s Magical Express, Disney Dining Plan, “free” transportation–these all were created with the goal of preventing guests from leaving WDW), and there is clearly a reason for Disney to not want people to visit the other parks: vacations are finite, and each hour spent outside the gates of WDW is lost revenue.

I find it very hard to believe that as the attendance leader in Orlando theme parks, Disney is the party benefitting from the ‘guest siphoning’ that is occurring as a result of Potterland.

 

[xdan0920]

Hyperion Wharf - Lets see... a bunch of empty nightclubs vs an energy-filled land with money-making restaurants and shops? Not to mention while they offer slightly different styles of entertainment, Downtown Disney is to City Walk what Disney's Theme Parks are to Universal's.

Is it your assertion that DTD in some way outshines CityWalk?

 

[bgraham34]

Is it your assertion that DTD in some way outshines CityWalk?

I am sure that is Disney's Plan.

 

[Ignohippo]

The thing is, it cuts both ways. WDW is undoubtedly drawing guests down who then choose to visit Wizarding World. As the larger draw in Orlando, I would bet that Disney is drawing more guests for Universal than Universal is for Disney.

Disney may publically state that it’s benefitting from Potter in that guests are coming from Universal to visit its parks, that doesn’t mean it’s true. It also may be a ‘half-truth’ in that guests who came to visit Potter are then coming to visit Disney, but it neglects to mention that Disney is losing guests to Universal.

Even if Disney only loses guests for a day or two, those are still serious losses if they otherwise wouldn’t have occurred. Disney has gone to considerable lengths to prevent this in the past (Disney’s Magical Express, Disney Dining Plan, “free” transportation–these all were created with the goal of preventing guests from leaving WDW), and there is clearly a reason for Disney to not want people to visit the other parks: vacations are finite, and each hour spent outside the gates of WDW is lost revenue.

I find it very hard to believe that as the attendance leader in Orlando theme parks, Disney is the party benefitting from the ‘guest siphoning’ that is occurring as a result of Potterland.

I agree on all points. I would add that the people coming down for Potter (and visiting WDW) are most probably not staying on Disney property.

It's also very likely that many families are now thinking twice about staying on WDW property. If they're going off property to Potter, they may as well stay someplace else in Orlando that's a heck of a lot cheaper. The exodus may not be very big now, but it'll more than likely get worse and worse as people start realizing they have much better options than ever before.

On a separate note, what's up with the author of the article continuously referring to PotterLand as it's own park? They even call it " the Harry Potter Park." Islands Of Adventure is literally never even mentioned in the article!!

 

[Lee]

Cars Land.
It can, and should, make the jump to WDW.

It won't. At least not the whole thing.
Why? Waaaaayyyyy too expensive. Radiator Springs Racers has already raced past the $300mil mark. And that is a ride that is using already developed and implemented technology. ( The opposite of Uni takeing an unproven tech like the Kuka system, adding amazing theming and creating such an incredible ride experience for well under $100mil.)

Disney, in my opinion, does not need a Potter swatter... They just need to go back to what made them great to begin with... Cutting edge of theme park technology, adding that wow factor in the theme, the ride, the shows....

That would be a good start.

TDO is essentially a real estate development company these days, but with the way that Walt Disney Parks and Resorts works, big projects don't get approved unless there's a spreadsheet that shows the project will make a profit to justify construction, so that may be part of the problem.

And...

But the problem is that your average guest doesn't realize that a certain light fixture hasn't worked in months, or that those potted plants you see in Caribbean Plaza are fountains that have been deactivated for over a decade.

Both quoted for truth.

Which reminds me of another point: Very few of them spent time in the rest of Universal. Many of them made the comment that it's "too much like Six Flags and we have one of those here" but we don't have a Disney park.

That's just ridiculous. Anyone who says that is either blind, or hasn't visited one or the other. Just plain silly.

Edit: I've never been to HP Land but would love to go. It looks much more detailed than a lot of what Disney has been doing recently and from what the students tell me, the area just breathes with character and life.

Yes.
As one well know Imagineer said upon exiting Forbidden Journey:
"That's the kind of thing that we used to do."

A new hotel is not an attraction, it is a resort..

Yes. I hope I never decide to make a trip to WDW just because there is a new hotel to stay at.

Downtown Disney is a shopping district. Again (possibly) nice for the resorts but not an attraction for the theme parks.

Yes. I'm sure the new Landry's Landing...oops, I mean Hyperion Wharf, will be great for the hotel guests that are dying for some shopping and dining after a day at the parks.

Resort - Keeping guests is just as important as getting guests. If people stay in a Disney resort, they are much more likely to stay on property. And the fact that they are opening additional value rooms and rarely seen family suites at value prices will encourage more people to stay.

I find it kinda sad.
Trying to economically force guests to stay on your property instead of offering them new and amazing things to make them want to stay there. Seems like a hostage situation.

Hyperion Wharf - Lets see... a bunch of empty nightclubs vs an energy-filled land with money-making restaurants and shops?

Sure, when you compare HW to empty nightclubs, or course it looks better.
But...comparing HW to PI before it's assassination...not even close.

So I guess when attractions are built at the exact same time on both coasts simutaneously, it is a clone at WDW because..... that helps your argument? :brick:

Timing is irrelevant.
Both ST2 and LM were developed and approved first for California. Seriously, if DCA weren't getting LM...MK wouldn't be getting it.

tdo has said many times that pi was closed because it wasn't FF, it wasn't because clubs were empty. the wharf is just more chains and it kills any kind of adult nightlife on property. dtd already has many food options, the whole property has many different food options and most of them are FF.

The whole "family friendly" smokescreen is just that....smoke.
They are changing the business model over there purely for financial reasons. It's easier for them to be a landlord to third-party restaurants and shops than to do it themselves.
So goodbye Disney quality theming, story and "magic", and hello to the same shopping and dining you can find in almost any major city across the country.

Yawn.

 

[xdan0920]

I am sure that is Disney's Plan.

I am sure it is as well. DTD has a long way to go to become CityWalks equal, let alone pass it by. I suppose Hyperian Wharf has potential, but all we have is some vague concept art as of now. WWoHP is better then anything Disney has churned out in years, and CityWalk demolished DTD. Maybe Universal really is closing the gap.

 

[twinnstar]

I always feel in the minority on this topic, but, I went to WWOHP this fall, and while I was VERY impressed with the scenery, build of the land, butterbeer (of course haha), and the HP and The Forbidden Journey... I thought the rest fell short.

It was very small and crowded. You had to wait on line for everything - even to just look into a tiny store. Most of the stores didnt have much I feel like I havent seen before, or nothing too imaginative as I thought they might have. The "cast" was generally not playing along, I felt. To me they were comparable to Six Flags employees in fun hats (which is fine, but I guess I was expecting something more like Disney CMs, putting on a show...) The shows seemed slapped together, and short, or hard to find. The other rides were merely old rides (and I didnt need someone to tell me they were, cause you could feel it!) with HP characters/situations thrown in. It seemed kinda, like "okay we're gonna slap this together to make some money" thats what it felt like to me.

So while I loved the butter beer, the land, and the one main original ride - I dont think thats enough to send me back there anytime soon. IOA's other rides are either too young for me, or dated or old (I live near Six Flags Great Adventure - so Im a little spoiled when it comes to rollercoasters). The food generally blows, and the other park I generally feel the same about. Both times I went, this fall and a few years ago, I got through both parks in less than a day.

I know I'm in the minority, but all my friends and family feel the same way I do, so I don't really understand all the hoopla about Universal Parks! :shrug:

 

[twinnstar]

Ha! this is so true. I am in love with Disney, so obviously - I went to Disney and then took a day for WWOHP...but most of my other friends went for just the weekend, or a few days - and with the only purpose of going to WWOHP.....


Needless to say, I think they all ended up visiting a Disney Park or two while they were there

The answer to Disney's welcoming Potter is in the article:



There ya go. Sounds like Universal's plan is backfiring. :lol:

People coming to Orlando to experience Potter will be tempted to visit WDW and Disney knows that. So in reality Universal is drawing tourists for Disney.

 

[fosse76]

People coming to Orlando to experience Potter will be tempted to visit WDW and Disney knows that. So in reality Universal is drawing tourists for Disney.

Universal saw a 36% increase. Disney's attendance was flat. If everyone of the 36% who visited IOA visited Disney (and who otherwise would not have been to Orlando), then Disney is actually doing much worse than expected. That means without Harry Potter down the road, they would have seen a significant decrease in attendance.

Universal saw a lot of guests who only came to Orlando because of Harry Potter, and I'm sure many of them did venture down the road to Disney. But Disney's attendance should have increased as a result, not remain flat. So that means that Disney is bleeding guests to Universal. And not everyone who goes to Orlando goes to Disney. And many who do only visit one or two parks during one or two days, which is made obvious whne looking at the fact that Epcot and Magic Kingdom have significantly higher attendance figures than DHS and DAK.

So if anything, Harry Potter is only helping Disney keep a flat attendance. And I am beginning to wonder if Disney has indeed overpriced itself without any real investment. Though there have been plenty of discounts, they have been smaller (i.e., only 20-25% for Values and moderates) than in the past. While that can be a good deal of money, why spend that when you can easily get the same quality room off-site for much cheaper? Most of the time the savings can absorb the parking fees. Disney needs new attractions. And not The Little Mermaid. I'm talking Everest/Harry Potter-level attractions. Putting speakers in Space Mountain isn't going to cut-it.

 

[Testtrack321]

I always feel in the minority on this topic, but, I went to WWOHP this fall, and while I was VERY impressed with the scenery, build of the land, butterbeer (of course haha), and the HP and The Forbidden Journey... I thought the rest fell short.

It was very small and crowded. You had to wait on line for everything - even to just look into a tiny store. Most of the stores didnt have much I feel like I havent seen before, or nothing too imaginative as I thought they might have. The "cast" was generally not playing along, I felt. To me they were comparable to Six Flags employees in fun hats (which is fine, but I guess I was expecting something more like Disney CMs, putting on a show...) The shows seemed slapped together, and short, or hard to find. The other rides were merely old rides (and I didnt need someone to tell me they were, cause you could feel it!) with HP characters/situations thrown in. It seemed kinda, like "okay we're gonna slap this together to make some money" thats what it felt like to me.

So while I loved the butter beer, the land, and the one main original ride - I dont think thats enough to send me back there anytime soon. IOA's other rides are either too young for me, or dated or old (I live near Six Flags Great Adventure - so Im a little spoiled when it comes to rollercoasters). The food generally blows, and the other park I generally feel the same about. Both times I went, this fall and a few years ago, I got through both parks in less than a day.

I know I'm in the minority, but all my friends and family feel the same way I do, so I don't really understand all the hoopla about Universal Parks! :shrug:

I don't think you're in the minority, it's a universal (no pun intended) feeling from people who I've talked to it's not much more than a handful of experiences. Crazy awesome, oh my god this is insane, experiences, but a half day at most.

I think this will be the undoing of Universal, and I think they know this. Just how quickly is the rest of Mysterious Island going to take to go? And what else will be torn out?

 

[jakeman]

I have mentioned that uni and ioa pulled in about the same as dak combines last year. An increase of million guests for them is going to effect their bottom line more than wdw, but it will still be a hit with ripples throughout the property. The neighbors down the street won't ever rival wdw's total attendance, but they can draw away revenue that disney needs and hurts wdw's growth.

That's not what I asked.

A big deal is being made of IoA reaching capacity and no one seems willing or able to supply what capacity is.

The number I have found, which seems low, is 20,000.

Universal saw a 36% increase. Disney's attendance was flat. If everyone of the 36% who visited IOA visited Disney (and who otherwise would not have been to Orlando), then Disney is actually doing much worse than expected. That means without Harry Potter down the road, they would have seen a significant decrease in attendance.

While 36% increase in an accomplishment, let's put this into perspective.

IoA had 4.6 million visitors in 2009. At 36% increase in attendance would put them at 6.2 million. Or 1.6 million guest.

That number still puts them 3.3 million guest behind Animal Kingdom.

Also for an additional perspective on what exactly that increase means, let's say hypothetically that HP went in at DHS. That increase would translate to only an 18% increase in attendance. If it went in at MK, it would be less than a 10% increase. In fact to increase MK attendance by 36% you would have to add 6.2 million visitors a year, or the entire attendance of IoA, including Potter.

I know 36% sounds like a huge number in percentage, but it wasn't that hard considering where IoA is on the pecking order and that IoA had an almost 12% drop in attendance from 2008 to 2009 when Disney parks remained at least flat.

Perhaps instead of using a sensationalized number such as a percentage, it would be more accurate to cite the actual increase.

Also, given this increase and Disney has only reported one quarter of decrease attendance, perhaps we should stop portraying WDW as a ghost town with people beating down the doors at IoA.

 

[T-1MILLION]

That's not what I asked.

A big deal is being made of IoA reaching capacity and no one seems willing or able to supply what capacity is.

The number I have found, which seems low, is 20,000.

Not sure on that it does seem low. Maybe that is the private event capacity number (since many smaller attractions and resturants/other buildings are closed for those)

I have always heard around 35,000. Sorry, can't give you a source of exact so take it for what it is worth.

 

[ToTBellHop]

I always feel in the minority on this topic, but, I went to WWOHP this fall, and while I was VERY impressed with the scenery, build of the land, butterbeer (of course haha), and the HP and The Forbidden Journey... I thought the rest fell short.

It was very small and crowded. You had to wait on line for everything - even to just look into a tiny store. Most of the stores didnt have much I feel like I havent seen before, or nothing too imaginative as I thought they might have. The "cast" was generally not playing along, I felt. To me they were comparable to Six Flags employees in fun hats (which is fine, but I guess I was expecting something more like Disney CMs, putting on a show...) The shows seemed slapped together, and short, or hard to find. The other rides were merely old rides (and I didnt need someone to tell me they were, cause you could feel it!) with HP characters/situations thrown in. It seemed kinda, like "okay we're gonna slap this together to make some money" thats what it felt like to me.

So while I loved the butter beer, the land, and the one main original ride - I dont think thats enough to send me back there anytime soon. IOA's other rides are either too young for me, or dated or old (I live near Six Flags Great Adventure - so Im a little spoiled when it comes to rollercoasters). The food generally blows, and the other park I generally feel the same about. Both times I went, this fall and a few years ago, I got through both parks in less than a day.

I know I'm in the minority, but all my friends and family feel the same way I do, so I don't really understand all the hoopla about Universal Parks! :shrug:

I actually agree with you. The new ride was incredible, but the land is far too small and crowded (and I understand that Rowling mandated that the shops be as small as they are, but it doesn't work very well with the crowds Orlando sees). It was not built for the crowds and makes for some uncomfortable, borderline dangerous situations (like the very small number of lockers outside Dragon Challenge which dead-end inside Hogsmeade station).

I also found most of the employees to be out of character and found myself VERY distracted by the unthemed, unhidden show building for the Forbidden Journey. Why build such a gorgeous castle and incredible interior chambers in the queue and then have a huge, blue building attached in plain view?

While the theming is impressive throughout most of IoA, I'm just not a huge fan of how they run the park. And agreed...the food is nasty. And much more expensive than at Disney!

And for the record, we had planned for 9 days at Disney, but decided to spend one of those days at IoA at the last minute--so that is money Disney lost from us due to Harry Potter. I doubt many people are extending their vacations due to WWoHP--they are rather just spending more time at Universal than they would normally plan.

 

[T-1MILLION]

So I guess when attractions are built at the exact same time on both coasts simutaneously, it is a clone at WDW because..... that helps your argument? :brick:

It does.

Right now(and likely for a long time/forever) The Wizarding World of Harry Potter at Universal Orlando is the only place on earth where you can go on these attractions and see these themed areas and eat at these themed places.

Clones take away the need for people to visit both when they really want to see those major attractions. Not saying it won't be popular but the fact that California will also have Star Tours will prevent them from visiting the other resort. I can't tell you how many times I have read "Why would I need to? We have most of the same stuff here"