Rumor The EPCOT Hotel

[GimpYancIent]

Again, the hypothetical was RIviera INSIDE Epcot. In this case, it would have the best location.
So remove location....
Riviera has much bigger and nicer rooms than Beach Club and Boardwalk. Much nicer bathrooms. Better dining, especially better than Beach Club (Cape May Buffet or Topolino's? I'd take Topolinos! Primo Piatto or Beach Club Marketplace or Boardwalk Pizza window? Give me Primo Piatto.). Riviera has a nicer pool area than Boardwalk, and I'd say it's better than Beach Club for adults and young children, with Stormalong Bay best for tweens and teens. (The great thing about Riviera pools, 2 huge pools to serve only 300 rooms, while Stormalong Bay has to serve over 1,000 rooms). Nicer decor and art at Riviera compared to Beach Club, Yacht Club and Boardwalk. I will give Beach Club a nicer lobby than Riviera.

Basically, stick a Riviera resort in the middle of Epcot... give it a rooftop pool... It would be the best hotel at WDW immediately.

I got to give it to you. I like the go big approach NO half stepping.

 

[havoc315]

Despite the damage it would do to the park?

Premature to say whether it would do damage to the park or not. Depends how they build it, design it, locate it.
But even if it does diminish the park overall, still would be a nice place to stay.

I suspect in the end it would be something built unobtrusively towards the edge of the park, with 1 entrance from outside the theme park, and a door/exit that leads to the park, like Grand Californian. And it would provide great views into the park for guests. If I was designing it, I'd do a roof top pool.

Remember, the original concept of Epcot did include residents. So guests actually staying in a hotel located within Epcot is actually pretty true to the original spirit of Epcot.

 

[ThunderRebel1]

Differentiated capacity. Both hotels were underperforming based on the room types they had available previously.

CBR removed the rooms furthest from Old Port Royale and added a secondary quick service location to what was Trinidad South. It removed the redundant front desk building that catered towards tourists driving their own cars and consolidated the hotel's amenities. The Skyliner has also allowed an increase in room rates.

COR added a tower building connected to the convention center, with true suite level rooms and a dedicated club level space aimed at meeting planners. It also added a lobby bar that encourages post meeting gatherings with large indoor and outdoor leasable space, a steak focused restaurant, and a more conveniently located fitness center amenity.

Net capacity at both resorts remained about the same or increased incrementally - a 2BR DVC villa is considered about 2.5 normal rooms. ADR and occupancy has gone up dramatically.

There are plenty of other assets not pulling their weight the way Wilderness Lodge wasn't - I'd expect "something" to happen to DAKL if occupancy doesn't recover post COVID.

Interesting insight. The updated post references ”Disney’s post-COVID plans for lower attendance.” Can you or anyone else expand on this? Is Disney projecting fewer guests visiting World? Will the marketing strategy be more targeted to upper socioeconomic groups and not as a “somewhat affordable” family vacation destination?

Just curious what Disney is looking to achieve (besides more $). I find this fascinating. We’ve never stayed in Club Level at resorts, but assume this is going after the bigger spenders who want more perks. I wish the Maxpass would come to Disney World - standing in long lines is the worst part.

 

[UNCgolf]

See.... I find the Swan Reserve and Riviera both to be 10 times nicer than Beach Club or Boardwalk. To me, the Boardwalk hotel itself is nothing but a huge collection of bland rooms and long hallways and formerly creepy pool. the selling point is solely the actual Boardwalk. Beach Club has great location and great pool, but otherwise it’s just a pastel Holiday Inn with mediocre rooms.
So stick a Riviera or Swan Reserve hotel in the middle of Epcot... I’ll hand over my wallet.

The long hallways at the Boardwalk Inn are an issue, but they're an issue at several Disney resorts (one of the reasons I like Port Orleans Riverside more than most of the deluxes all things considered). I think the theming there is excellent and love the resort (don't ever use the pools so they don't matter to me).

But the theming matters to me if I'm going to stay on-site. I don't see any reason to stay somewhere like the the Riviera when I could stay off-site at an equally generic (and possibly nicer) hotel for much less, or pay a bit more to stay at the Four Season which is about 15x nicer than the Riviera. The Swan Reserve is a bit different since it likely will cost much less than WDW resorts, but an EPCOT WDW version wouldn't.

I really do not like the Riviera at all, though. I think it's probably the worst deluxe overall -- see almost nothing of value there for the price they're charging. If it was the price of a moderate it might be worth it.

 

[marni1971]

Premature to say whether it would do damage to the park or not. Depends how they build it, design it, locate it.
But even if it does diminish the park overall, still would be a nice place to stay.

I suspect in the end it would be something built unobtrusively towards the edge of the park, with 1 entrance from outside the theme park, and a door/exit that leads to the park, like Grand Californian. And it would provide great views into the park for guests. If I was designing it, I'd do a roof top pool.

Remember, the original concept of Epcot did include residents. So guests actually staying in a hotel located within Epcot is actually pretty true to the original spirit of Epcot.

For the love of god.

Actually that’s how they’d try and spin it. Assuming something is happening. I’m leaning towards a false alarm.

 

[WEDway Inc & Company LLC]

I’m leaning towards a false alarm.

We can hope

 

[UNCgolf]

I’m leaning towards a false alarm.

It really doesn't make much sense that they would cancel a resort where construction had already begun only to shift and build a different new resort in another location a few months later.

 

[havoc315]

The long hallways at the Boardwalk Inn are an issue, but they're an issue at several Disney resorts (one of the reasons I like Port Orleans Riverside more than most of the deluxes all things considered). I think the theming there is excellent and love the resort (don't ever use the pools so they don't matter to me).

But the theming matters to me if I'm going to stay on-site. I don't see any reason to stay somewhere like the the Riviera when I could stay off-site at an equally generic (and possibly nicer) hotel for much less, or pay a bit more to stay at the Four Season which is about 15x nicer than the Riviera. The Swan Reserve is a bit different since it likely will cost much less than WDW resorts, but an EPCOT WDW version wouldn't.

I also think the Riviera is possibly the worst resort on WDW property, though. I just see absolutely nothing of value there for the price they're charging. If it was like $250 a night, it might be worth it.

You're certainly entitled to your subjective opinion. Just recognize it is subjective.
There are objective aspects: Objectively speaking, one can't argue that Beach Club and Boardwalk are walkable to Epcot, Riviera isn't.
Objectively speaking, one can't argue against the fact that Riviera rooms are bigger than Beach Club and Boardwalk rooms.
Objectively speaking, one can't argue against the fact that Riviera rooms have larger bathrooms with 2 showers.
Objectively speaking, can't argue against the fact that Riviera has fewer rooms than either Beach Club or Boardwalk.

You seem to focus on one thing, your subjective opinion on theming. That's fine, you're not alone. Some people will prefer the theming of Boardwalk or Beach Club, some will prefer the theming of Riviera.
Personally -- I love the theming of the Boardwalk itself, but I can't stand the theming of the actual Boardwalk hotel building. The lobby feels like a stuffy grandparent's house.
While I really like the Beach Club lobby, I find the rest of the resort theming to be bland and non-existent. Okay, it's a pastel blue beachy resort with Holiday Inn quality rooms.
I find Riviera theming to be sophisticated and generally consistent with the European models it is trying to emulate. (though the rooms are much nicer than you'd find in a European hotel).

Again, opinion will vary. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. To me, Riviera is so much better looking than Boardwalk.

 

[UNCgolf]

You're certainly entitled to your subjective opinion. Just recognize it is subjective.
There are objective aspects: Objectively speaking, one can't argue that Beach Club and Boardwalk are walkable to Epcot, Riviera isn't.
Objectively speaking, one can't argue against the fact that Riviera rooms are bigger than Beach Club and Boardwalk rooms.
Objectively speaking, one can't argue against the fact that Riviera rooms have larger bathrooms with 2 showers.
Objectively speaking, can't argue against the fact that Riviera has fewer rooms than either Beach Club or Boardwalk.

You seem to focus on one thing, your subjective opinion on theming. That's fine, you're not alone. Some people will prefer the theming of Boardwalk or Beach Club, some will prefer the theming of Riviera.
Personally -- I love the theming of the Boardwalk itself, but I can't stand the theming of the actual Boardwalk hotel building. The lobby feels like a stuffy grandparent's house.
While I really like the Beach Club lobby, I find the rest of the resort theming to be bland and non-existent. Okay, it's a pastel blue beachy resort with Holiday Inn quality rooms.
I find Riviera theming to be sophisticated and generally consistent with the European models it is trying to emulate. (though the rooms are much nicer than you'd find in a European hotel).

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Again, opinion will vary. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. To me, Riviera is so much better looking than Boardwalk.

Of course it's all subjective (also the Boardwalk Lobby feels like the lobby of a resort from that era, which is the whole point -- doesn't mean you have to like it, but it looks exactly the way it should).

It's nowhere near as nice as the actual European resorts it's attempting to copy. Someone else said Disney had the veneer of luxury, and that's what the Riviera is. It's an attempt to look like a luxury hotel to someone who's never actually been to a real one. It's themed rather than authentic. Even a lot of the exterior architecture is cheap decoration attempting to look like something actually expensive and nice. All you have to do is go to the Four Seasons nearby to see an actual high end hotel and what the Riviera wishes it was.

I think that's actually why I dislike the Riviera so much. The other Disney deluxes are overpriced, but none of them are really trying to essentially trick you into believing you're at a luxury resort (except maybe the Grand Floridian) the way the Riviera does.

 

[spresso81]

EPCOT was built with such beautiful sightlines and symmetry. Let's destroy the lagoon (sightlines) and former Communicore (symmetry) then put in hideous infrastructure on the lagoon that is not even centered and build a hotel that also will not be centered or presented in a way that makes it feel like it was planned to be in the park. Just sticking a hotel inside an existing park by the people which allowed the center ring for Harmonious to be off center, every day for patrons to see makes me sick to my stomach.

 

[uncle jimmy]

It really doesn't make much sense that they would cancel a resort where construction had already begun only to shift and build a different new resort in another location a few months later.

location, location, location...

 

[havoc315]

It really doesn't make much sense that they would cancel a resort where construction had already begun only to shift and build a different new resort in another location a few months later.

Entirely different beast. Does make sense to cancel a massive 1,000 room resort with questionable demand, and build an entirely unique boutique hotel that may have under 200 rooms, in a location that will guarantee strong demand.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I find Riviera theming to be sophisticated and generally consistent with the European models it is trying to emulate.

The École was known for its love of large bare walls and sparse ornament.

 

[UNCgolf]

Entirely different beast. Does make sense to cancel a massive 1,000 room resort with questionable demand, and build an entirely unique boutique hotel that may have under 200 rooms, in a location that will guarantee strong demand.

All of that matters, but from a cost standpoint it could easily be more expensive to build a new EPCOT hotel right now than it would have been to finish Reflections, considering all the design work was complete and they'd already cleared the site (at least partially; not sure if they'd finished clearing). Plus, although Reflections was supposed to have 900 rooms, it was a DVC resort and that's generally a way for Disney to print money. It's not like it was going to be 900 cash rooms for regular guests. We also have no idea how many rooms they actually want for this potential EPCOT hotel. It would almost certainly be smaller than Reflections, but we don't actually know if they were planning something boutique.

I just don't think this is a real plan at the moment. It might be a few years down the road, but I would be absolutely shocked to see Disney start construction on a new hotel in the next year or two.

 

[marni1971]

unique boutique hotel that may have under 200 rooms

Nope.

 

[havoc315]

Of course it's all subjective (also the Boardwalk Lobby feels like the lobby of a resort from that era, which is the whole point -- doesn't mean you have to like it, but it looks exactly the way it should).

It's nowhere near as nice as the actual European resorts it's attempting to copy. Someone else said Disney had the veneer of luxury, and that's what the Riviera is. It's an attempt to look like a luxury hotel to someone who's never actually been to a real one. It's themed rather than authentic.

Isn't every Disney hotel "themed rather than authentic"

You're also over-stating how nice actual European resorts tend to be. The average European hotel is small, small rooms, small lobbies.
Shortly before Covid, I stayed in Paris (which is still quite different than the French Riviera), just a couple blocks from the Lourve, a 4-star hotel (the 5-star hotels were well over $1,000 per night, so I took the bargain of a 4-star with a great location that was still $700 per night)... I loved it, but for $700 per night, the lobby was maybe 150 square feet, the single elevator was the size of a phone booth, that 2-3 people could cram into at a time.
Where the Riviera isn't authentic -- It's actually much nicer than a typical nice European hotel. [Yes, you can certainly say it's not a 5-star hotel... but a 5-star hotel would be well over $1,000 per night. They are charging the price of a 4-star hotel in a great location, so that's the appropriate comparison.]

Even a lot of the exterior architecture is cheap decoration attempting to look like something actually expensive and nice. All you have to do is go to the Four Seasons nearby to see an actual high end hotel and what the Riviera wishes it was.

But that's not the appropriate comparison. Riviera is a very nice 4-star hotel in a premium location (WDW on-site). Four Seasons is a 5-star hotel, with a somewhat lesser location.
And Riviera is a fair amount cheaper than the Four Seasons.

I think that's actually why I dislike the Riviera so much. The other Disney deluxes are overpriced, but none of them are really trying to essentially trick you into believing you're at a luxury resort (except maybe the Grand Floridian) the way the Riviera does.

I don't believe I'm being tricked into believing it's a luxury resort. I believe you are accurately being sold a high quality 4-star resort.

 

[havoc315]

All of that matters, but from a cost standpoint it could easily be more expensive to build a new EPCOT hotel right now than it would have been to finish Reflections, considering all the design work was complete and they'd already cleared the site (at least partially; not sure if they'd finished clearing). Plus, although Reflections was supposed to have 900 rooms, it was a DVC resort and that's generally a way for Disney to print money. It's not like it was going to be 900 cash rooms for regular guests.

Believe the plan was 700 cash rooms and 200 DVC rooms. That would have immediately made it 1 of the larger resorts.

 

[UNCgolf]

Believe the plan was 700 cash rooms and 200 DVC rooms. That would have immediately made it 1 of the larger resorts.

I didn't know the actual breakdown.

 

[havoc315]

I didn't know the actual breakdown.

That's what I read somewhere, but not sure how accurate it is.

Though what we've seen consistently -- Where a resort under-performs, they convert more rooms to DVC. Thus, half of Wilderness Lodge became Copper Creek. The upper floors of Jambo house got added to DVC. Several Poly longhouses got converted to DVC.
So even if the 700/200 split is accurate, quite possibly they could switch more rooms to DVC in the future.

 

[UNCgolf]

Isn't every Disney hotel "themed rather than authentic"

You're also over-stating how nice actual European resorts tend to be. The average European hotel is small, small rooms, small lobbies.
Shortly before Covid, I stayed in Paris (which is still quite different than the French Riviera), just a couple blocks from the Lourve, a 4-star hotel (the 5-star hotels were well over $1,000 per night, so I took the bargain of a 4-star with a great location that was still $700 per night)... I loved it, but for $700 per night, the lobby was maybe 150 square feet, the single elevator was the size of a phone booth, that 2-3 people could cram into at a time.
Where the Riviera isn't authentic -- It's actually much nicer than a typical nice European hotel. [Yes, you can certainly say it's not a 5-star hotel... but a 5-star hotel would be well over $1,000 per night. They are charging the price of a 4-star hotel in a great location, so that's the appropriate comparison.]



But that's not the appropriate comparison. Riviera is a very nice 4-star hotel in a premium location (WDW on-site). Four Seasons is a 5-star hotel, with a somewhat lesser location.
And Riviera is a fair amount cheaper than the Four Seasons.






I don't believe I'm being tricked into believing it's a luxury resort. I believe you are accurately being sold a high quality 4-star resort.

I have stayed in much nicer hotels than the Riviera in New York, Los Angeles, Madrid, London, Florence, and Atlanta (even though I live here -- stayed in one for a wedding). I've also stayed in hotels in Europe that weren't as nice, but they weren't trying to be high end hotels (stayed at a Novotel last time I was in Paris, which was a fine mid-level hotel).

I completely agree it's all subjective, but I don't think the Riviera is any nicer than your average higher end Marriott/Hilton/et al. downtown in a large city. It has a very similar overall feel to me. That doesn't make it a bad hotel (those hotels are generally quite nice), and although it's probably sounded that way I didn't ever mean to imply that the Riviera was actually low quality. I just don't consider it a high quality 4 star resort.