The Boat House construction at Disney Springs The Landing

[flynnibus]

I realize you didn't technically suggest any such thing, I however prefer to take your arguments to their logical conclusions in order to mitigate some of the back and forth that can get contentious and wearying.

No, it's not taking it to the logical conclusion... Your post suggests artificial limits.. where my point is more about 'what is your business plan' and sticking to it. And the commentary is... it seems the business plan of WDW continues to shift away from the demographic the Disney brand has focused on.

I don't see how having a high price point steakhouse at DS, isn't catering to WDWs guest demographic. Some guests have lots of money, some have moderate amounts, some have lesser amounts. What is wrong with catering to the entirety of your clientele?

It is again about the product as a whole - and not just in isolation. Do you build a Ferrari Dealer just 'anywhere' and say 'well people have a range of incomes'... nor does that means you only build Ferrari Dealerships.

How long before the next tier down becomes stupid expensive and people say 'well its not as expensive as the boathouse...'

I don't like the increasing # of things you put right in front of customers saying "you gotta pay to play" and "sorry you can't afford this". Just because you have executive level offerings doesn't mean you flaunt them in front of the other customers - doing that enough causes bad blood with customers. I don't like the ratio premium priced products vs more mainstream. I don't like the price point Disney is setting for it's mainstream stuff.

Customers tolerate finding locations aren't priced for them... to a point. If you walk around and find 1 of 5 places is too high for your taste, but 4 of 5 still do and you pick your favorite.. everyone is cool. But if you walk around and find 5 of 5 are too high for your taste, or even the majority are... the customer is discouraged and bothered. You must consider the product make-up - not just products in isolation saying 'there is a customer, somewhere, that wants this'.

Disney seems to be on this trajectory to condition customers like the 'who cares about debt' crowd of the early 2000s.. who cares about the prices, just charge it! Excess and overspending that isn't sustainable and eventually comes crashing down. But in the meantime, drags everything upwards because of relative comparisons.

Disney was built upon wholesome, premium grade product. Not targeting or encouraging glutenous spending. Look at the offerings Disney has been rolling out... every one seems to be aiming higher and higher in what they can either convert into an upcharge, or pushing price points.

Disney trips were always expensive.. but you felt you got a return for that spend (and the cruises still manage that balance to a degree). Now it just looks like fleecing because the demand is there... capitalize on it.

If Disney Springs becomes this boutique level district where I need to sell a kidney to eat and entertain my family... then I will be greatly disappointed in Disney.

 

[chiefs11]

So I guess they should black out the windows on the monorail so people who can't afford it don't have to see the GF or Poly while riding the express loop.

 

[Minthorne]

There seem to be many options on the menu that were not as outrageous as the few examples. It's going to have several lounges and bars as well as dining rooms. While the high end options are there I think the entire establishment will be catering to a large cross section of Disney guests.

Then again, we could just replace the World of Disney Store with a Walmart so everyone could afford to shop at Disney Springs

 

[flynnibus]

So I guess they should black out the windows on the monorail so people who can't afford it don't have to see the GF or Poly while riding the express loop.

Way to read the words but miss the point.

Nevermind the Poly used to be obtainable.. see comments about 'capitalizing on it..'

 

[jakeman]

So...we are just going to blow by the facts that the price points here are pretty much in line with other high end steakhouses?

Is the argument that high end dining establishments shouldn't be at Disney?

I'm really at a loss as to why this is an issue.

 

[GoofGoof]

wow this conversation got off track

the question is though, when did it become that wdw is only for the rich, that is entirely opposite walt's vision.

and i never said i expected somewhere to be mcdonalds prices or something, just seemed like this place wasn't in tune with the other restaurants of similar themeing at downtown disney.

like a meal at rainforest, dino, planet hollywood is slightly higher than youd pay elsewhere but your payingfun for the experience and it being different.

its just too bad that the boathouse seems to think its "themeing" can justify meal prices that could amount to double these other places.

when the theming suggests fun family time, fun day out on the water vibes

not wear a suit spend a million dollars steakhouse.



why can't someone read about a place? thats the most stupid logic ever

if no one ever dreamed about things, then people wouldn't look at travel websites, technology websites, and on and on

Here's my 2 cents on all of this. The new restaurants at the Landing are going to be high end places. Places that would most likely appeal to business travelers, wealthier guests and/or locals who are accustomed to a certain level of quality and are willing to pay for it and people looking for a nice night out for a special occasion (both tourists and locals). These places are not intended to appeal to the average tourist family. In other words they won't be an alternative to RFC, T-Rex or eating at a counter service place in the parks. I don't think there is anything fundamentally wrong with offering some more high end dining. It has nothing to do with being elitist or only for the wealthy. Many "regular" people enjoy a nice night out at a high end restaurant. Maybe its a young couple who just got engaged or a "less young" couple in WDW for their 25th wedding anniversary looking for a special meal out. You also have the convention business and lots of time those people aren't footing their own bill.

I think the one issue that you have pointed out is that many tourists will see something new and rather large and assume it's going to be a T-Rex type place with a pretty moderate menu. They will be interested in eating here until they see the menu prices. It will take a little while to establish the reputation. This isn't going to be the only high priced meal at WDW. The existing places seem to do fine despite not being in the 'wheelhouse" of the average WDW guest.

I do think building the Landing area this way is a bit of a gamble. They are trying to really attract and retain a demographic that has been largely ignored by WDW for a while now. It's ironic to see people complaining that this won't appeal to families and kids. We see threads here all the time complaining about how WDW is too focused on families and children. This appears to be stepping out of that mold and attempting to a large extent to appeal to adults traveling without kids and locals. Whether that demographic is large enough to sustain all of these large new restaurants is yet to be seen.

 

[Benshar]

Just stepped in here to ask if anyone had heard when/if they will be opening for reservations (either through the MM+ or phone in); my fiance and I will be down next Thursday and though we would either hit Church Street downtown or DD.

It seems very angry in here.

 

[xdan0920]

No, it's not taking it to the logical conclusion... Your post suggests artificial limits.. where my point is more about 'what is your business plan' and sticking to it. And the commentary is... it seems the business plan of WDW continues to shift away from the demographic the Disney brand has focused on.



It is again about the product as a whole - and not just in isolation. Do you build a Ferrari Dealer just 'anywhere' and say 'well people have a range of incomes'... nor does that means you only build Ferrari Dealerships.

How long before the next tier down becomes stupid expensive and people say 'well its not as expensive as the boathouse...'

I don't like the increasing # of things you put right in front of customers saying "you gotta pay to play" and "sorry you can't afford this". Just because you have executive level offerings doesn't mean you flaunt them in front of the other customers - doing that enough causes bad blood with customers. I don't like the ratio premium priced products vs more mainstream. I don't like the price point Disney is setting for it's mainstream stuff.

Customers tolerate finding locations aren't priced for them... to a point. If you walk around and find 1 of 5 places is too high for your taste, but 4 of 5 still do and you pick your favorite.. everyone is cool. But if you walk around and find 5 of 5 are too high for your taste, or even the majority are... the customer is discouraged and bothered. You must consider the product make-up - not just products in isolation saying 'there is a customer, somewhere, that wants this'.

Disney seems to be on this trajectory to condition customers like the 'who cares about debt' crowd of the early 2000s.. who cares about the prices, just charge it! Excess and overspending that isn't sustainable and eventually comes crashing down. But in the meantime, drags everything upwards because of relative comparisons.

Disney was built upon wholesome, premium grade product. Not targeting or encouraging glutenous spending. Look at the offerings Disney has been rolling out... every one seems to be aiming higher and higher in what they can either convert into an upcharge, or pushing price points.

Disney trips were always expensive.. but you felt you got a return for that spend (and the cruises still manage that balance to a degree). Now it just looks like fleecing because the demand is there... capitalize on it.

If Disney Springs becomes this boutique level district where I need to sell a kidney to eat and entertain my family... then I will be greatly disappointed in Disney.

It's a high end steakhouse. Built in a tourist rich area. It's not a Ferrarri dealership in Camden.

I'd argue that this is exactly the type of thing many people have been hoping for. A high quality dining experience not subject to the dumbing down brought on by the DDP.

Then there's the fact that the prices are in line with other high end steakhouses.

Should Disney Springs not offer high end dining? Must everyone eat Earl of Sandwich?

 

[xdan0920]

So...we are just going to blow by the facts that the price points here are pretty much in line with other high end steakhouses?

Is the argument that high end dining establishments shouldn't be at Disney?

I'm really at a loss as to why this is an issue.

It is quite confusing.

 

[sshindel]

I'm joining way late here.
Let me see if I have the gist.
The boathouse has some very expensive steaks.
These steaks are expensive, but on par with high-end steakhouses.
Disney is stupid and money grubbing for letting a 3rd party restaurant come in and offer high-end steaks at market-appropriate prices.

Is that it?

 

[Lord_Vader]

Wow this thread is sinking fast... My turn to contribute?

The local malls have a wide range of stores from Forever 21 (cheap garbage) to Coach (not-so-cheap) with everything in between.

The reason there is this wide range of diversity is to support customers of ALL types, not just those that can afford $300 purses/shoes or those that can only afford $20 purses at one of those earing places. Ralph Lauren sells t-shirts for $40, so does Dillard's, Belk and Macy's but JC Penny, Sears and other stores sell other t-shirts for $20. I could go to Wal-Mart and get a whole pack of six for $10 (guessing here) and save even more money. The Apple store has nothing but expensive electronics and accessories for their expensive electronics but it is always much busier than the BestBuy selling Android and Windows laptops, should they stop allowing the two in the same mall because some can't afford Apple? Are these higher end retailers/designers ripping people off?

My point, there should be something for everyone including customers with cash to spend. Establishing a restaurant that is expensive (The Boathouse will be) in DS/DTD is not putting in your face that you cannot afford this, they are there if you can and are willing to pay plain and simple. Everyone makes individual decisions regarding what they spend their hard earned money on, some choose to purchase $40,000 SUVs, others prefer spending their money on experiences, while others simply horde theirs in savings accounts to will to their heirs. We tend to fall into the middle of all three in my family, we spend large amounts on vacations because we will remember those, my children remember them but could not tell you what kind of car we drove three years ago and to be honest I really hope I run out of money right after I pass away.

In my family we really enjoy experiences from fine dining to shows and I fully intend to check out The Boathouse as the menu looks compelling and if the quality is up to par we will go back regardless of the perceived values of others. If WE feel the money is well spent then it is to us. If you do not feel it is worth your hard earned dollars that by all means don't eat there, it is not my place to judge anyone else.

The notion Disney or any retailer is putting a store in so they can show anyone things they cannot afford is ridiculous, they want you to spend money there.

 

[flynnibus]

It's a high end steakhouse. Built in a tourist rich area. It's not a Ferrarri dealership in Camden.

I'd argue that this is exactly the type of thing many people have been hoping for. A high quality dining experience not subject to the dumbing down brought on by the DDP.

Then there's the fact that the prices are in line with other high end steakhouses.

Should Disney Springs not offer high end dining? Must everyone eat Earl of Sandwich?

I'm worried about the whole - not this one restaurant in isolation. Look at all of Disney's recent work... where has the middle ground gone? Everything is aiming at this 'overspending' crowd. From pre-paying for viewing spots, to prepaying to skip lines, to taking pizza to crazy prices, to ramping up the prices at each restaurant they touch, to driving higher and higher offerings like these. Where is the balance in adding capacity in the moderate or lower tiers?

The overpriced Food Trucks?? Honestly the closest thing I can think of in the moderate category of late has been the Art of Animation.. and that's a stretch. Maybe BoG's menu.

Why do I need to chose between $30 a plate and walk-up counters? I'm not saying Disney only should have EoS... I'm commenting on the trajectory the company has been on and where they have been expanding.

I reserve judgement on the boathouse itself until we actually see what level of food and service they deliver on. Yes, there are other locations that charge similar prices for their meals... but they tend to be based on their level of service and offerings - not simply 'because its disney'.

I'm over paying for premium because it's associated with Disney - they've ruined that association. If you want me to pay premiums, you better deliver on it.

I'd love to hear what people are actually budgeting for food/day now on their trips...

 

[flynnibus]

I do think building the Landing area this way is a bit of a gamble. They are trying to really attract and retain a demographic that has been largely ignored by WDW for a while now. It's ironic to see people complaining that this won't appeal to families and kids. We see threads here all the time complaining about how WDW is too focused on families and children. This appears to be stepping out of that mold and attempting to a large extent to appeal to adults traveling without kids and locals. Whether that demographic is large enough to sustain all of these large new restaurants is yet to be seen.

So what you highlight is one of Disney's key problems... they are failing to create an identity that people can quickly relate to and differentiate the products. Is The Landing a luxury high end place, or supposed to be on World of Disney level? Is Disney Springs a boutique or outlet shopping experience?

What is the identity Disney is really aiming for with these projects? Who is their demo they are targeting? Is it narrow or 'everyone' focused?

Why are these simple business model questions so ambiguous?

When Disney put V&A's in the Grand Floridian... it is clear the target audience matches the setting and the environment and targets they are trying to set. Just what is Disney Springs??

 

[CaptainAmerica]

So what you highlight is one of Disney's key problems... they are failing to create an identity that people can quickly relate to and differentiate the products. Is The Landing a luxury high end place, or supposed to be on World of Disney level? Is Disney Springs a boutique or outlet shopping experience?

What is the identity Disney is really aiming for with these projects? Who is their demo they are targeting? Is it narrow or 'everyone' focused?

Why are these simple business model questions so ambiguous?

When Disney put V&A's in the Grand Floridian... it is clear the target audience matches the setting and the environment and targets they are trying to set. Just what is Disney Springs??

Why does Disney Springs need a cohesive identity like that? My local mall has a luxury fur store, a Macy's, an Old Navy, a Burger King, a Legal Seafood, etc. ad infinitum.

At Disney Springs, there's no reason why the guy who's going to bowl a couple of games at Splitsville needs to have the same "vibe" of an experience as the guy who just wants to see Age of Ultron or the couple coming to The Boathouse for an anniversary meal.

 

[sshindel]

I'm worried about the whole - not this one restaurant in isolation. Look at all of Disney's recent work... where has the middle ground gone? Everything is aiming at this 'overspending' crowd. From pre-paying for viewing spots, to prepaying to skip lines, to taking pizza to crazy prices, to ramping up the prices at each restaurant they touch, to driving higher and higher offerings like these. Where is the balance in adding capacity in the moderate or lower tiers?

So if for year's we've been blasting Disney for "Walmarting" the resort, what should we call the new focus on high-end customers?
Bentleying?
Louis-Vuittoning?
Kardashianing?

 

[flynnibus]

Why does Disney Springs need a cohesive identity like that? My local mall has a luxury fur store, a Macy's, an Old Navy, a Burger King, a Legal Seafood, etc. ad infinitum.

I didn't say you needed Cohesive or even singular - what you need is something that is understandable by guests else you set them up for failure.

We don't confuse guests with thinking they are going to get Extreme BMX when they goto the Magic Kingdom... and just how quickly would you slam someone who came in here crying the MK didn't have enough thrill rides??

Confusing guests hurts attendance and customer satisfaction... which hurts your return rates. If you mislead guests - its even worse as they get spiteful.

 

[flynnibus]

So if for year's we've been blasting Disney for "Walmarting" the resort, what should we call the new focus on high-end customers?
Bentleying?
Louis-Vuittoning?
Kardashianing?

If you really think this is one extreme or the other.. and can't actually follow the posts - please don't reply.

 

[sshindel]

If you really think this is one extreme or the other.. and can't actually follow the posts - please don't reply.

What was that? I didn't follow this post. Can you explain?

 

[CaptainAmerica]

I didn't say you needed Cohesive or even singular - what you need is something that is understandable by guests else you set them up for failure.

We don't confuse guests with thinking they are going to get Extreme BMX when they goto the Magic Kingdom... and just how quickly would you slam someone who came in here crying the MK didn't have enough thrill rides??

You don't answer my point about the shopping mall. A guest going to Old Navy isn't going to be confused if he has to walk by an Orange Julius to get there. He "gets" what an Old Navy is and he also knows that facilities in which you find Old Navy often includes un-Old-Navy-ish experiences.

Confusing guests hurts attendance and customer satisfaction... which hurts your return rates. If you mislead guests - its even worse as they get spiteful.

They don't get spiteful if it's a free-to-play experience. Disney Springs doesn't cost you anything to walk around, so there doesn't need to be this understandable "vision". The guest doesn't spend money until he chooses which experience within Disney Springs he wants to pay for. I think he'd know what he was getting himself into when he sees the menu posted outside The Boathouse (or T-Rex or Fulton's or wherever).

ETA: I think you're also massively misunderstanding the typical Disney Springs visitor. The couple that's going for a fine dining experience is going specifically for the fine dining experience, not to see what's what, putz around, and maybe "grab a bite" at the $60 steak place. The casual visitor will continue to meander through World of Disney, Ghirardelli, and the other casual experiences. The bowler will go to Splitsville. The moviegoer will go to AMC. There are very few people who are visiting Disney Springs without knowing why they're visiting Disney Springs.

 

[sshindel]

We don't confuse guests with thinking they are going to get Extreme BMX when they goto the Magic Kingdom... and just how quickly would you slam someone who came in here crying the MK didn't have enough thrill rides??

Confusing guests hurts attendance and customer satisfaction... which hurts your return rates. If you mislead guests - its even worse as they get spiteful.

Again, call me simple, but how is offering a high-end steakhouse confusing to a customer or misleading?