The “wealthy” is not going to work

[Lilofan]

Was this thinking or drinking?

Drinking a lot may make one think poorly. Make your bed, be prepared to sleep in it.

 

[Lilofan]

Completely agree with this. If Daddy Warbucks wanted to shell out for the private pontoon boat to see Illuminations, or shell out more for the VIP tour - those were always options. There's always been a "rich" way to do Disney.

There was a family from Canada one evening when we were at DHS, that paid to sit in an empty theatre at Fantasmic to have a private show just for them. Money talks. I still recall when Arab royalty and their security teams go shopping after hours on their spending spree at the local malls.

 

[el_super]

So they are "middling" themselves by pretending it's a high end experience when no person who travels in actual luxury locations will ever consider WDW in that category, while the middle class feels like they are being excluded/overpriced.

 

[Brad Bishop]

I think people are looking at the wrong number: $200K/year. That can be quite well off in some areas of the country and "struggling to get by" in others.

What you need to look at is the market value of a day (or night.. or morning) in one of the parks. What is the max that the population is willing to pay for each of these (selling 3 times a day helps max out the profits, though they've struggled with breakfast).

That "max ticket price" hasn't been found yet. Grumble all you like about, "I can't afford to go!," but the reality is that people are lining up at the gates each and every day packing the parks.

What I expect to happen: They will continue to raise their ticket prices, resort prices, fees, merch prices, etc. until the sales start to dip (which they haven't). At that point they'll be just past the market price and they'll taper off on the price increases for a year or two and then keep that new price as THE price (adjusted for inflation) going forward and maybe bump it up every so often just a bit more to see if there's a new market price (they can always have sales on the resorts if they go too far).

They're not looking to make this "affordable". I don't think they care how many times a year, or a lifetime, that you visit. What they care about is that for every head that comes into the park, did they extract the maximum amount of money possible. Yeah, that's sort of academic, but that's where they want to be, in practical terms.

It's not wrong. It's business. Bob is about business.

As mentioned before, you should expect to pay:
- per ride
- for transportation
- for the ability of being able to reserve your days.

In addition, you should expect to pay higher prices for:
- tickets
- resort rooms
- resort fees
- merch / dining

...and, at the same time, expect less in terms of:
- catering to you
- maintenance (more burnt out bulbs / more worn paint / etc.)
- fewer improvements (once the 50th bits are done, Tron, Guardians, etc.) you can expect probably 20 years of "little to nothing new" going forward.

Some will say, "this will reduce the parks being so packed!" I think that's wishful thinking. They want the parks packed at the highest price possible. That's where the max profit is.

Going back to the OP: They don't care if you make $100K or $1M/year. They care that you have enough money to pay the max amount (once they find it) to get through their gates, buy a room for a few days at a resort, and pay more for a dining experience, even if that dining experience is less than was offered in the past. Imagine $$$$ signs over the heads of their customers. That's how they see you. Where you come from and where you go to makes no difference to them.

 

[SteveAZee]

And where they are falling down on this is that their experience is not and will never be a luxury experience. Going to a Disney theme park is a middle-class activity by its very definition (waiting in lines, riding rides, dodging strollers, eating churros and burgers, etc.).

So they are "middling" themselves by pretending it's a high end experience when no person who travels in actual luxury locations will ever consider WDW in that category, while the middle class feels like they are being excluded/overpriced.

The way they used to do it was a better balance and far more subtle - 90%+ of the experience was middle-America family fun, but if you wanted to stay at the Grand Floridian or go to a nicer restaurant you could do that, but that was all invisible to the folks having a great time at Hoop Dee Doo Revue.

I certainly (and my wife definitely not) don't consider a trip to WDW a "luxury experience" and the rest of the experience through the misery of Genie+, the ridiculous need for planning, poor crowd management, deteriorating quality of attractions/entertainment, and moving away from what made a Disney park special (looking at you giant oil rigs) has just become depressing.

I agree that Disney will never be a luxury experience. At one time it was at least a premium experience (pay significantly, but get great customer service and decent food/drink).

I think the disconnect is that people who have a lot of discretionary income are looking for a luxury experience. Not quite "Beverly Hillbillies", but there may be enough well off families that love the Disney experience and wouldn't know what to do with themselves in actual luxury accommodations or locations/resorts.

True... the mix was better once upon a time... experiences for a broader spectrum of people and what they're willing/able to spend for the Disney experience.

Finally, yes... Disney/Chapek seem to be banking on memories/nostalgia/"Must Do"/right-of-passage guests to keep them coming to WDW paying more for less. Just waiting for @Disstevefan1 to pop in with "Disney is invincible" or whatever his phrase is. If Chapek keeps Chapek-ing away at things for another few years... maybe not.

 

[Disstevefan1]

I agree that Disney will never be a luxury experience. At one time it was at least a premium experience (pay significantly, but get great customer service and decent food/drink).

I think the disconnect is that people who have a lot of discretionary income are looking for a luxury experience. Not quite "Beverly Hillbillies", but there may be enough well off families that love the Disney experience and wouldn't know what to do with themselves in actual luxury accommodations or locations/resorts.

True... the mix was better once upon a time... experiences for a broader spectrum of people and what they're willing/able to spend for the Disney experience.

Finally, yes... Disney/Chapek seem to be banking on memories/nostalgia/"Must Do"/right-of-passage guests to keep them coming to WDW paying more for less. Just waiting for @Disstevefan1 to pop in with "Disney is invincible" or whatever his phrase is. If Chapek keeps Chapek-ing away at things for another few years... maybe not.

LOL, Maybe I should change:
"TWDC and its theme parks are invincible"
To:
"I've got a bad feeling about this"

Seriously, I do think TWDC is invincible, not sure about its theme parks anymore.

Could there be a time in the future TWDC sells its theme park business and licences the IP to the new owner?
(they make HUGE $$ selling the parks AND makes huge money on licence fees) ?

THEN give it 10 years or so to allow the new owner to run the parks into the ground, THEN Disney buys them back for a fraction they sold them for AND looks like savior and watch the folks (and their money) flood back in?

In any event its fun to discuss.. Nothing we say here will matter....

 

[WDWJoeG]

I agree that Disney will never be a luxury experience. At one time it was at least a premium experience (pay significantly, but get great customer service and decent food/drink).

I think the disconnect is that people who have a lot of discretionary income are looking for a luxury experience. Not quite "Beverly Hillbillies", but there may be enough well off families that love the Disney experience and wouldn't know what to do with themselves in actual luxury accommodations or locations/resorts.

True... the mix was better once upon a time... experiences for a broader spectrum of people and what they're willing/able to spend for the Disney experience.

Finally, yes... Disney/Chapek seem to be banking on memories/nostalgia/"Must Do"/right-of-passage guests to keep them coming to WDW paying more for less. Just waiting for @Disstevefan1 to pop in with "Disney is invincible" or whatever his phrase is. If Chapek keeps Chapek-ing away at things for another few years... maybe not.

Josh is in charge of the parks - from his leadership and decisions to date, I can only take away what was once "wow and surprise them" has devolved to "let's see what we can get away with".

 

[el_super]

I don't understand your post - I didn't say wealthy people don't go to the parks. You think the Kardashians see Disney as a luxury experience? They do it as a lark to see what the peasants enjoy (private rides or not).

Big assumptions there.

Wealthy people go to the parks for all the same reasons as anyone else would: they want the experience. Does it matter if it fits your personal definition of "luxury"? Nope. Not at all. Turns out that wealthy people have kids, and sometimes those kids want to go to Disneyland.

Its false to think catering to the wealthy is a losing strategy, because the wealthy won't want to visit. They do.

 

[Roakor]

When Disenyland opened the focus was on the experience. Money was just a necessary evil required to bring you that experience. Today the focus in the parks is Money. The experience is just the necessary evil required to make the money. It is this change in focus that I see to be the biggest issue. I have the money to go but the experience is just not what it used to be. So I find myself for the first time since I started going to the parks, questioning whether I want to go back. Its not a question of can I afford it, its more a question of is the experience worth it anymore. For me it still is and so I shall return but each trip it takes me longer to come to that decision. If Disney looses that trust of providing a quality experience it will not be easy to win back. Simply lowering the price won't work.

 

[eliza61nyc]

I agree that Disney will never be a luxury experience. At one time it was at least a premium experience (pay significantly, but get great customer service and decent food/drink).

I think the disconnect is that people who have a lot of discretionary income are looking for a luxury experience. Not quite "Beverly Hillbillies", but there may be enough well off families that love the Disney experience and wouldn't know what to do with themselves in actual luxury accommodations or locations/resorts.

True... the mix was better once upon a time... experiences for a broader spectrum of people and what they're willing/able to spend for the Disney experience.

Finally, yes... Disney/Chapek seem to be banking on memories/nostalgia/"Must Do"/right-of-passage guests to keep them coming to WDW paying more for less. Just waiting for @Disstevefan1 to pop in with "Disney is invincible" or whatever his phrase is. If Chapek keeps Chapek-ing away at things for another few years... maybe not.

It maybe more of " predictions of Disney's demise have been greatly exaggerated ". For at least the last 6 years folks here have been predicting that whatever the latest fiasco is will be the tipping point.
Again I can definitely remember when park tickets hit over 100 bucks folks swore that was it and Disney was for the rich. How many years ago was that?
Now of course we have folks declaring that as soon as the post pandemic monet is spent then Disney better watch out.

So while I don't think any thing is invincible, I seriously doubt the mouse world has anything to worry about for the next 4 years at least.
Now of course we have war, famine, Armageddon sized meteor hitting Orlando lol that can change things

 

[WDWJoeG]

Big assumptions there.

Wealthy people go to the parks for all the same reasons as anyone else would: they want the experience. Does it matter if it fits your personal definition of "luxury"? Nope. Not at all. Turns out that wealthy people have kids, and sometimes those kids want to go to Disneyland.

Its false to think catering to the wealthy is a losing strategy, because the wealthy won't want to visit. They do.

That's all fascinating, but I didn't say wealthy people don't want to go to a Disney park. I said they do not view it as a luxury destination, which they don't.

 

[Lilofan]

That's all fascinating, but I didn't say wealthy people don't want to go to a Disney park. I said they do not view it as a luxury destination, which they don't.

A luxury destination is a stay at Orlando Grande Lakes Ritz Carlton / JW Marriott ( highly recommend ) and Four Seasons WDW. These exemplary destinations are like day and night compared to the Poly, Contemporary and GF.

 

[el_super]

That's all fascinating, but I didn't say wealthy people don't want to go to a Disney park. I said they do not view it as a luxury destination, which they don't.

So what's the point to that statement? To say that being a "luxury" destination by some vague and pretty subjective definition isn't a requirement of wanting to go to Walt Disney World nor is it a necessity to attract guests? I guess I can agree with that.

 

[Vegas Disney Fan]

A luxury destination is a stay at Orlando Grande Lakes Ritz Carlton / JW Marriott ( highly recommend ) and Four Seasons WDW. These exemplary destinations are like day and night compared to the Poly, Contemporary and GF.

I think most “normal” people would consider that luxurious but its still upper middle class luxury. True luxury for the wealthy is private yachts, private resorts, private jets, etc.

This is an odd discussion for me because the term “wealthy” is 100% subjective. I’d consider anything under $500k as upper middle class, over that as wealthy, many people may put the threshold at $100k, others may put the threshold at millions… depending on where people fall on that scale, and how they grew up, luxury will vary greatly.

Old money who grew up traveling the world will also likely view “luxury” very differently than new money. For people who grew up without money a Disney vacation may be a lifelong dream that is their definition of a luxury vacation.

Working where I do I know a shocking number of millionaires and it’s surprising how different they are, with their unlimited funds some will splurge for the 5,000 sq ft suite but many others will get a standard room because they don’t see any value in the suite. As I said earlier, in my experience rich people are just as diverse as poor people. The blue collar guy who owns his own concrete company is very different from the trust fund baby, who’s very different from the plastic surgeon, who’s very different from the celebrity, who’s very different from the 20 something app developer who sold it for a fortune … they’re all worth tens of millions but they couldn’t be more different if they tried.

 

[annabanana]

Disney is catering to the wealthy.

They don’t want the middle class.

They can upcharge all they want the wealthy will pay for it!

These are things I see here daily to explain away the fiscal policy of the mousetrap.

Now let’s use a liberal definition of the word “wealthy” as a household making 200k a year or more.

That puts us somewhere around 26 million households in the states. I’m aware that the Mouse gets overseas visitors, but they seriously expect 30% of the households to not only visit but repeat visit on a yearly basis?

Let’s not forgot the more $$$ people make the more they expect. When your used to the Four Seasons the Contemporary is going to seem lacking.

It’s often discussed here that Disney can’t fail. It’s impossible.

However the idea that the “wealthy” are going to carry this company is ridiculous.

It has to be the middle class.

What’s the long term game plan?

What happens if the recession does come?

I would be interested to hear everyone’s thoughts.

I agree! This is not what Walt intended. He said "I don't care about money, I just want people to have fun".

 

[Animaniac93-98]

I think the disconnect is that people who have a lot of discretionary income are looking for a luxury experience. Not quite "Beverly Hillbillies", but there may be enough well off families that love the Disney experience and wouldn't know what to do with themselves in actual luxury accommodations or locations/resorts.

I'd say this is a pretty accurate description of the average WDW guest, particularly at the Deluxe resorts.

For them, WDW offers a kind of comfort in knowing that even if they pay $500-$700/night for a hotel, they can wear whatever they want and act however they want without fear of being judged. They can indulge in luxury, but keep a safe distance.

Unfortunately, for others this only adds to the false illusion of luxury at the parks and resorts and can let people get away with poor public behavior under the guise of "I'm on vacation" or "I payed this much, so I can...".

 

[GoofGoof]

I actually don’t think Disney is specifically targeting wealthy customers, they are targeting anyone who is willing to pay what they are charging. If a lower middle class family who can’t afford a trip to WDW saves for 10 years for a week long stay at the Polynesian (or more likely instead of saving and waiting goes now and charges it on a credit card ) they add as much to the bottom line as a “wealthy“ customer staying in the same room. What Disney is not looking to do is make WDW more affordable for everyone which would ultimately lead to even larger crowds and a lesser experience for everyone and more importantly for Disney, less profits overall. Supply and demand wins out and they will keep raising prices until the demand drops enough that they have to pull back to maximize profits.

This is not a unique problem for WDW. Has anyone been to a pro sports game lately? Season tickets for any team are far out of reach for anyone who isn’t at least upper middle class or a business owner. When I was a kid I went to Phillies games and general admission seats out in the outfield were $4 a ticket. A family of 4 could go to a game for about $20 including parking and another $20 got you dogs, drinks and even a few beers for my dad. Now for 4 seats in the cheapest section, parking and food you are looking at $200+ for 1 night out. It’s something a working class family might do once in a while but not something that would be affordable to do on a regular basis. Despite that fact these teams aren’t going bankrupt or hurting for business. Same goes for cars. You think everyone driving a Lexus or BMW is “wealthy” and “can afford it”?

I think one thing that people discount is the average person’s appetite for going into debt for leisure activities or luxury items is much higher today than it was in the past. People don’t think twice about charging that trip to WDW or season tickets for a sports season to a credit card and paying it off over time. Back in the day that was not as common. If the only people who went to WDW were people who could pay for it outright based on their income level then they would be limiting it to the “wealthy” but that’s not really the case. Anyone is welcome as long as they are willing to pay.

 

[BeentoallDParks]

Something crucial has been mostly missing from this conversation, and that is how so many families are buying Disney vacations on credit. The cost of Disney can go up while the income of customers is stagnant as long as those families have the credit cards to put the bill on. One of the most under-discussed trends of the past years is just how much Disney costs are working to drive people further into debt—and it’s not discussed because we just don’t know the figures. But you can bet that the companywide push for MagicBands and mobile payments has only driven credit card-based spending far higher. There are unquestionably many families whose income hasn’t risen much but who are still trying to keep up with the prestige of taking a Disney vacation by simply charging more on their cards. I think there is a case to be made that overall, the average customer hasn’t gotten dramatically richer—but they have started charging more. These figures are probably proprietary to Disney—though—has anyone seen any?

 

[Lilofan]

I actually don’t think Disney is specifically targeting wealthy customers, they are targeting anyone who is willing to pay what they are charging. If a lower middle class family who can’t afford a trip to WDW saves for 10 years for a week long stay at the Polynesian (or more likely instead of saving and waiting goes now and charges it on a credit card ) they add as much to the bottom line as a “wealthy“ customer staying in the same room. What Disney is not looking to do is make WDW more affordable for everyone which would ultimately lead to even larger crowds and a lesser experience for everyone and more importantly for Disney, less profits overall. Supply and demand wins out and they will keep raising prices until the demand drops enough that they have to pull back to maximize profits.

This is not a unique problem for WDW. Has anyone been to a pro sports game lately? Season tickets for any team are far out of reach for anyone who isn’t at least upper middle class or a business owner. When I was a kid I went to Phillies games and general admission seats out in the outfield were $4 a ticket. A family of 4 could go to a game for about $20 including parking and another $20 got you dogs, drinks and even a few beers for my dad. Now for 4 seats in the cheapest section, parking and food you are looking at $200+ for 1 night out. It’s something a working class family might do once in a while but not something that would be affordable to do on a regular basis. Despite that fact these teams aren’t going bankrupt or hurting for business. Same goes for cars. You think everyone driving a Lexus or BMW is “wealthy” and “can afford it”?

I think one thing that people discount is the average person’s appetite for going into debt for leisure activities or luxury items is much higher today than it was in the past. People don’t think twice about charging that trip to WDW or season tickets for a sports season to a credit card and paying it off over time. Back in the day that was not as common. If the only people who went to WDW were people who could pay for it outright based on their income level then they would be limiting it to the “wealthy” but that’s not really the case. Anyone is welcome as long as they are willing to pay

Nothing is more embarrassing when wealthy or not , a credit card or multiple credit cards are declined at times usually in front of the guest whether it be dining or lodging. Those cases when I was younger when I worked in that industry was handled in a case by case basis between the mgr and client trying to pay for their bill etc. If I was Chicago, I would love to pay for rooftop condo viewing looking towards Wrigley Field left field in a game if that exists. If the NYM were the visiting team even better while I root - Lets Go Mets !

 

[Lilofan]

Something crucial has been mostly missing from this conversation, and that is how so many families are buying Disney vacations on credit. The cost of Disney can go up while the income of customers is stagnant as long as those families have the credit cards to put the bill on. One of the most under-discussed trends of the past years is just how much Disney costs are working to drive people further into debt—and it’s not discussed because we just don’t know the figures. But you can bet that the companywide push for MagicBands and mobile payments has only driven credit card-based spending far higher. There are unquestionably many families whose income hasn’t risen much but who are still trying to keep up with the prestige of taking a Disney vacation by simply charging more on their cards. I think there is a case to be made that overall, the average customer hasn’t gotten dramatically richer—but they have started charging more. These figures are probably proprietary to Disney—though—has anyone seen any?

There is a reason why after exiting many WDW attraction rides , one has to walk through a gift shop waiting to take your money .