The “wealthy” is not going to work

[eliza61nyc]

Why are we assuming that it's an "either/or" situation? Now maybe because the people I know never went to Disney every year? This year we are doing Greece, next year we'll be back to Disney. A few of my coworkers did Disney last year loved it but this year are doing something else.
Could it be, and this is a question that being wealthy enables them to do both?

 

[Vacationeer]

As the boomer generation starts shuffling off this mortal coil, the biggest wealth transfer in history is underway. WDW is prepared to receive their slice.

I doubt we'll see some big crash in attendance any time soon. Decent discount packages and offers could easily reel people back and entice new guests, if and when needed. They'd still make crazy profits even if per capita spending suffered a bit.

 

[DisneyHead123]

I don't think prices are the right metric here. Disney can easily drop their prices in a second. Market not supporting current prices anymore? Drop them. Done. Easy peasy lemon squeezy. This is not a long term strategy that they are "locked into", for the most part (assuming basic operating costs are covered.)

I think what they really need to watch is the erosion of goodwill over time. If goodwill is high, then those who have been priced out will be thrilled if prices drop - finally, their chance to visit, or have a longer visit, or stay at a nicer resort, and so on. There will be a crowd just waiting to snap up those lower prices. If goodwill has seriously eroded, though? I think that is what's not sustainable. Disney has started to flirt with "serious goodwill erosion" recently, in my opinion - but we are also coming out of a pandemic where all businesses are in a similar position. At this point I still think they will turn this around in the next few years. If they don't, however - yes, I agree that is not sustainable. A brand name can only take so many hits in perception before people start turning up their nose at it.

 

[Vegas Disney Fan]

How strange in that vacationing in parts of Europe and South America is more cost effective and enjoyable than at WDW.

European vacations really are comparable in price to WDW, flight prices are similar, hotel prices are similar, food prices are similar… the major difference for us is duration, we do 5-7 days at WDW vs 12-14 in Europe because of the travel time. We’ve done Europe 3 times since 2015, the average trip is about $10,000 (which has included several days staying at DL Paris each trip), compare that to the WDW trip we’re currently planning which is 6 days in WDW and a 4 day cruise which is quickly creeping up on $10,000. Similar length, similar price tag.

As much as we love traveling in Europe I wouldn’t say it’s more enjoyable though, they are very different vacations, Europe is amazing and fascinating but also very stressful and exhausting with all the travel involved, WDW is much more relaxing for us. I think this is one of the most frustrating things about the recent Disney changes, WDW has always required some planning but was a relatively simple trip once you got on the plane, now it involves far more planning while there, if I have to stress about things on vacation I may as well do it in Europe.

 

[Lilofan]

European vacations really are comparable in price to WDW, flight prices are similar, hotel prices are similar, food prices are similar… the major difference for us is duration, we do 5-7 days at WDW vs 12-14 in Europe because of the travel time. We’ve done Europe 3 times since 2015, the average trip is about $10,000 (which has included several days staying at DL Paris each trip), compare that to the WDW trip we’re currently planning which is 6 days in WDW and a 4 day cruise which is quickly creeping up on $10,000. Similar length, similar price tag.

As much as we love traveling in Europe I wouldn’t say it’s more enjoyable though, they are very different vacations, Europe is amazing and fascinating but also very stressful and exhausting with all the travel involved, WDW is much more relaxing for us. I think this is one of the most frustrating things about the recent Disney changes, WDW has always required some planning but was a relatively simple trip once you got on the plane, now it involves far more planning while there, if I have to stress about things on vacation I may as well do it in Europe.

If one was going to drop thousands of money in August, in WDW it is extremely hot humid, frequent downpours in the afternoon and always the threat of hurricanes. In parts of Europe, it seems like the locals take the month off go on vacation and tourists figure out what is open to enjoy their vacation.The 6-9 hour time difference is a challenge to if one flies to another part of the world. I once took a redeye from Hawaii to back home and a few Hawaiian families happy and dressed in Mickey Ears to their long trip to WDW. One perhaps not the real deal can experience Europe - Epcot World Showcase !

 

[kingdead]

It's less about the money you come in with than that you can now see more class differences WITHIN the parks. The difference between "poor" and "rich" (let's face it, nobody going to Disney World is dirt poor) used to be that some people would stay at fancier hotels, eat at fancier restaurants, and get more souvenirs, but the rides were the main attraction and they were available to everyone if they were willing to wait in the same line. Now there are more upcharge experiences and the quality of what's available at the "base level" is lower. Having to pay for GeniePlus doesn't help.

 

["El Gran Magnifico"]

"Wealth" can always be in flux. That household that made $200k last year, due to circumstances may be down to $150k this. And the household at $125k last year could jump to $175k this. They're always going to have a pool of fresh targets.

Also consider those that come into a little bit of money (tax refund, inheritance, work bonus, home sale etc.) Wealthy by no means - but suddenly find themselves with some extra cash. Enough to afford a Disney type vacation.

Then you have those that that will just finance it all. Whether they can afford it or not. Sure. Why not rack up an extra 10k in credit card debt. I don't agree with that approach - but it happens all too often.

 

[jloucks]

No, I wouldn't say the park attendance should be limited. If the crowds are getting too big you build more. Not do the opposite and take away things like Snow White and add a meet and greet. Add things that spread out the crowds. Disneyland does this much better by utilizing their space than WDW does, despite WDW having a ton more space.

I suspect that making Orlando even more appealing by adding more parks is going to just bring in even more people.

 

[jloucks]

If Chapek is targeting the rich, think again. The rich in my area , highly educated and successful look to spend their money in many other places that peak their curiosity interest etc. The masses should be targeted , find ways for repeat visits. How strange in that vacationing in parts of Europe and South America is more cost effective and enjoyable than at WDW.

I have fairly rich friends ($600,000+yr), and the Disney Vacation Club seems to be highly successful at targeting them.

The Disney Cruise Line crossover capabilities open up a lot of nice travel options too.

WDW is hip right now, and if you watch social media, a lot of young adult celebrities go, and inadvertently promote the parks.

 

[jloucks]

It's less about the money you come in with than that you can now see more class differences WITHIN the parks. The difference between "poor" and "rich" (let's face it, nobody going to Disney World is dirt poor) used to be that some people would stay at fancier hotels, eat at fancier restaurants, and get more souvenirs, but the rides were the main attraction and they were available to everyone if they were willing to wait in the same line. Now there are more upcharge experiences and the quality of what's available at the "base level" is lower. Having to pay for GeniePlus doesn't help.

The tiered hotels and dining are still a big part of the equation.

And, like I have said before, GeniePlus and Lightening Lane don't work like some think they do. I was NOT able to buy my way to the front of lines all day long, like I was hoping I could. I suspect if you could, it would be really bad for the economy visitor.

 

[kingdead]

The tiered hotels and dining are still a big part of the equation.

And, like I have said before, GeniePlus and Lightening Lane don't work like some think they do. I was NOT able to buy my way to the front of lines all day long, like I was hoping I could. I suspect if you could, it would be really bad for the economy visitor.

I think it's less about how Genie/Lightning actually work than that people know they exist and feel that there's some sort of privilege that they can't afford. Or more realistically, they can afford it but it makes them feel anxious or angry if they pay for it.

It's a theme park that doesn't have a lot of thrill rides, it's all about getting people into a good emotional headspace. Whether the person paying for a shorter line is a genuine billionaire or someone making the stupidest financial decision of their life and maxing out their credit card doesn't really matter, it's the bad vibes that are a problem.

 

[el_super]

It's a theme park that doesn't have a lot of thrill rides, it's all about getting people into a good emotional headspace. Whether the person paying for a shorter line is a genuine billionaire or someone making the stupidest financial decision of their life and maxing out their credit card doesn't really matter, it's the bad vibes that are a problem.

The bad vibes don't really last long though.

People are frustrated by the higher prices, but just like the $4 soda and $12 hot dogs, they still pay.

Once you are full and/or on the attraction, you tend to forget how frustrated you were a few minutes before.

 

[Vegas Disney Fan]

The tiered hotels and dining are still a big part of the equation.

And, like I have said before, GeniePlus and Lightening Lane don't work like some think they do. I was NOT able to buy my way to the front of lines all day long, like I was hoping I could. I suspect if you could, it would be really bad for the economy visitor.

The pricing of Genie+/ILL is horrible, it’s too cheap so it’s oversold and isn’t a premium service. I’d much rather see a $100+ add on that 5% of guests use rather than a cheap add on that 75% are using, a true skip the line pass, those that pay it get a premium experience but those that don’t still get a good experience.

Genie+ is so oversold it just moved the standby line into the FP queue and made the old standby line unbearable... it hasn’t made the experience better for anyone but it’s definitely made the experience worse for those that don’t buy it.

 

[Goofyernmost]

Disney is catering to the wealthy.

They don’t want the middle class.

They can upcharge all they want the wealthy will pay for it!

These are things I see here daily to explain away the fiscal policy of the mousetrap.

Now let’s use a liberal definition of the word “wealthy” as a household making 200k a year or more.

That puts us somewhere around 26 million households in the states. I’m aware that the Mouse gets overseas visitors, but they seriously expect 30% of the households to not only visit but repeat visit on a yearly basis?

Let’s not forgot the more $$$ people make the more they expect. When your used to the Four Seasons the Contemporary is going to seem lacking.

It’s often discussed here that Disney can’t fail. It’s impossible.

However the idea that the “wealthy” are going to carry this company is ridiculous.

It has to be the middle class.

What’s the long term game plan?

What happens if the recession does come?

I would be interested to hear everyone’s thoughts.

The real problem with the "wealthy" audience is that the world itself is their destination. The have so many options about where they can spend there money that they will soon tire of explaining to friends that just came back from the beaches on the Riviera why they chose to go to a kiddy park. They are very fickle and can afford to be able to find new adventures elsewhere..

 

[SteveAZee]

For me, it seems an odd perspective is that there are discrete buckets of income and or wealth and that the people in those buckets think and act in some sort of monolithic way. Disney may be trying to appeal to people further to the right on 'discretionary income' spectrum.... which makes sense. WDW is a finite resource, so working to appeal to those most likely to spend more while taking up a hotel room or a seat in an attraction makes financial sense. Chapek is ham-handed in how this is being implemented, but as soon as I see someone trying to describe how 'rich people' think or even define the differences between perceived classes and how they spend their time or money... I just keep scrolling.

 

[Disstevefan1]

For me, it seems an odd perspective is that there are discrete buckets of income and or wealth and that the people in those buckets think and act in some sort of monolithic way. Disney may be trying to appeal to people further to the right on 'discretionary income' spectrum.... which makes sense. WDW is a finite resource, so working to appeal to those most likely to spend more while taking up a hotel room or a seat in an attraction makes financial sense. Chapek is ham-handed in how this is being implemented, but as soon as I see someone trying to describe how 'rich people' think or even define the differences between perceived classes and how they spend their time or money... I just keep scrolling.

Agreed, there are folks of all different race, creed, color, thinking and also have money to spend.
Disney does not care your race, creed, color, thinking, they only care about your money and they want it.

 

[WDWJoeG]

For me, it seems an odd perspective is that there are discrete buckets of income and or wealth and that the people in those buckets think and act in some sort of monolithic way. Disney may be trying to appeal to people further to the right on 'discretionary income' spectrum.... which makes sense. WDW is a finite resource, so working to appeal to those most likely to spend more while taking up a hotel room or a seat in an attraction makes financial sense. Chapek is ham-handed in how this is being implemented, but as soon as I see someone trying to describe how 'rich people' think or even define the differences between perceived classes and how they spend their time or money... I just keep scrolling.

And where they are falling down on this is that their experience is not and will never be a luxury experience. Going to a Disney theme park is a middle-class activity by its very definition (waiting in lines, riding rides, dodging strollers, eating churros and burgers, etc.).

So they are "middling" themselves by pretending it's a high end experience when no person who travels in actual luxury locations will ever consider WDW in that category, while the middle class feels like they are being excluded/overpriced.

The way they used to do it was a better balance and far more subtle - 90%+ of the experience was middle-America family fun, but if you wanted to stay at the Grand Floridian or go to a nicer restaurant you could do that, but that was all invisible to the folks having a great time at Hoop Dee Doo Revue.

I certainly (and my wife definitely not) don't consider a trip to WDW a "luxury experience" and the rest of the experience through the misery of Genie+, the ridiculous need for planning, poor crowd management, deteriorating quality of attractions/entertainment, and moving away from what made a Disney park special (looking at you giant oil rigs) has just become depressing.

 

[Lilofan]

Agreed, there are folks of all different race, creed, color, thinking and also have money to spend.
Disney does not care your race, creed, color, thinking, they only care about your money and they want it.

Thinking is a slippery slope. Poor thinking has spelled trouble for guests at Food and Wine even US Womens soccer star Alex Morgan and her rowdy bunch at Rose&Crown were affected.

 

["El Gran Magnifico"]

The way they used to do it was a better balance and far more subtle - 90%+ of the experience was middle-America family fun, but if you wanted to stay at the Grand Floridian or go to a nicer restaurant you could do that, but that was all invisible to the folks having a great time at Hoop Dee Doo Revue.

Completely agree with this. If Daddy Warbucks wanted to shell out for the private pontoon boat to see Illuminations, or shell out more for the VIP tour - those were always options. There's always been a "rich" way to do Disney.

 

[Disstevefan1]

Thinking is a slippery slope. Poor thinking has spelled trouble for guests at Food and Wine even US Womens soccer star Alex Morgan and her rowdy bunch at Rose&Crown were affected.

Was this thinking or drinking?