Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Ep 8). SPOILERS. Plot points revealed and discussed.

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Sorry, but that is incorrect. And you really need to learn a little bit more about the editing process that went into producing the final version of Star Wars that we ended up with. You can see some of the deleted scenes online if you’d like.

You think that hundreds of millions of dollars investment are dependent on whims and how somebody is feeling on a given day of the shoot/edit?

Hollywood is 100% focused on the sure thing...the idea it's some sort of free form art is incorrect.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

So you want to blow off the opinion of Millennials because there is a Fast and Furious franchise? What? Why would you ignore anyone’s opinion much less an entire generation’s? And this isn’t the first time you have insulted them in this forum come to think of it. I don’t believe that is very becoming of you.

Not entirely...but the fact crap sells and the studios cater to it isn't exactly a rousing indorsement of the tastes of the up and coming generations...

If you say "they're free to like junk"...then I yield that...but it doesn't mean that it's still not junk.

 

[bclane]

You think that hundreds of millions of dollars investment are dependent on whims and how somebody is feeling on a given day of the shoot/edit?

Hollywood is 100% focused on the sure thing...the idea it's some sort of free form art is incorrect.

Look, you can overstate my point all you want but it doesn’t prove me wrong. But to your point, sometimes they do change story points on the day of shooting and sometimes they improvise. They actually improvised a lot of Thor Ragnarok (about 80%) if what is written about that particular movie’s production process is to be believed...and that is from the mouth of the director himself.

http://www.slashfilm.com/thor-ragnarok-improvised-80-percent/

You should read more about how many famous scenes have been improvised Just google famous improvised movie scenes. You might find it quite interesting.

 

[AEfx]

And i resisted this idea at first as much as the next guy...

I don't think anyone could have resisted it more than me.

I have spent the last five years putting my faith into Disney. I spent more time defending them and the choices made with TFA and beyond than I care to even remember. That's why I just reject the whole "you are a fanboy who isn't happy with anything" nonsense.

I had no expectations about what would happen in the new trilogy. No direction I imagined the story went in to. I read some of the theories and such between TFA and TLJ, but I wasn't attached to any. Some made more sense than others, but that was as far as I went in even thinking about it. I didn't make any predictions because I didn't care. Except...I just wanted it to make sense.

The last year or so for various reasons I haven't spent as much time reading and participating Star Wars discussions in various places like I have before. One of those reasons is that I thought it was pointless to speculate, I'd just see it when it comes. Anyway, this weekend I went and revisited some of them - including from those that I have known quite well who run some of them. The response was somewhat surprising to me.

The divisiveness with TLJ is nothing like I have ever seen before. Much of it is like it is here - some people mad about what they did to Luke (which wasn't really a problem for me), some who were disappointed that again things built up in publicity (like Phasma) were totally wasted.

It's funny, though, because there is one contingent of dedicated, 5-years-going, anti-Disney, dyed-in-the-wool-TFA-was-a-travesty Star Wars folks who are praising TLJ - for the very reason that it threw TFA out the window. They are using it to vindicate how bad they felt TFA was - even using moments like Luke literally tossing the saber aside as evidence that TFA was so terrible that they decided to pretty much start the story from scratch. And things like Snoke making fun of Kylo for being bested by a "girl who never held a saber before" make me realize that they aren't wrong. It's what I have been saying since I saw it - it basically spits on the last film instead of being a continuation of it.

So even among the Star Wars fans that like the film, it's because they hated the last one so much, LOL. I can't help but find it hilarious that they completely agree with me on what TLJ did to eviscerate TFA - we just have different views on it being a good thing or a terrible thing. (And most of them are really down on the next film already because they are afraid JJ will take it back the other way again.)

All this just convinced me of one thing - man, no matter which way you slice it - this is just one big mess.

 

[bclane]

Not entirely...but the fact crap sells and the studios cater to it isn't exactly a rousing indorsement of the tastes of the up and coming generations...

If you say "they're free to like junk"...then I yield that...but it doesn't mean that it's still not junk.

Again, your opinion. Just because some people like something you don’t doesn’t make it junk. Look i wouldn’t call myself a fan of that series at all either, but i’m not about to judge an entire generation of people based on differing tastes. But I guess it’s a free country so judge away.

 

[AEfx]

Sorry, but that is incorrect. And you really need to learn a little bit more about the editing process that went into producing the final version of Star Wars that we ended up with. You can see some of the deleted scenes online if you’d like.

I'm sorry, but you are just completely wrong.

I know the Rinzler books like the back of my hand, which painstakingly document every moment of production and every scrap of paper from the Lucasfilm archives. I have read and studied every single bit of everything that has ever been released about the OT.

There are only a small handful of deleted scenes from Star Wars. It's a couple of minutes of footage. It boils down to a conversation with Luke and Biggs, and the now infamous unfinished Jabba scene. That is a far cry from entire sequences and restructuring of a film after it has already been shot as was done with TFA and TLJ. I mean, the entire films were rejiggered - remember that shot of Maz handing Leia the saber? They restructured the entire film in post - that is a very new thing to the film industry.

You are completely misrepresenting the genius editing job that Marcia Lucas did with the first film. History agrees that it was the editing that made Star Wars what it was. It was in how it was cut together, and shaving a second off here and there - mostly in the dog fighting scenes with the ships, and how it was intercut. Not deciding to completely take apart the film and have 30-60 minutes of scenes that never made it in.

The only exception with Star Wars itself was they did decide early into shooting that they would kill off Obi-wan, which was because he wouldn't have had anything to do with the rest of the film and it seemed like it would work dramatically. Again, this is so different from what you are talking about with what has been done with TFA and now TLJ.

 

[AEfx]

And for you to say they are just winging it is overstating the matter considerably...also imo.

Your opinion has been contradicted by the directors, writers, and producers of the sequel trilogy. I'm going to have to take their word for it.

 

[bclane]

I'm sorry, but you are just completely wrong.

I know the Rinzler books like the back of my hand, which painstakingly document every moment of production and every scrap of paper from the Lucasfilm archives. I have read and studied every single bit of everything that has ever been released about the OT.

There are only a small handful of deleted scenes from Star Wars. It's a couple of minutes of footage. It boils down to a conversation with Luke and Biggs, and the now infamous unfinished Jabba scene. That is a far cry from entire sequences and restructuring of a film after it has already been shot as was done with TFA and TLJ. I mean, the entire films were rejiggered - remember that shot of Maz handing Leia the saber? They restructured the entire film in post - that is a very new thing to the film industry.

You are completely misrepresenting the genius editing job that Marcia Lucas did with the first film. History agrees that it was the editing that made Star Wars what it was. It was in how it was cut together, and shaving a second off here and there - mostly in the dog fighting scenes with the ships, and how it was intercut. Not deciding to completely take apart the film and have 30-60 minutes of scenes that never made it in.

The only exception with Star Wars itself was they did decide early into shooting that they would kill off Obi-wan, which was because he wouldn't have had anything to do with the rest of the film and it seemed like it would work dramatically. Again, this is so different from what you are talking about with what has been done with TFA and now TLJ.

No it is not just those two scenes:



Sorry, but you are overstating my points, and incorrect in some of your statements and conclusions...imo.

Regardless, I have to report back to work tomorrow so I have to do lesson plans. Peace out.

 

[bclane]

Your opinion has been contradicted by the directors, writers, and producers of the sequel trilogy. I'm going to have to take their word for it.

Incorrect. Now you are overstating their words as well.

 

[bclane]

I'm sorry, but you are just completely wrong.

I know the Rinzler books like the back of my hand, which painstakingly document every moment of production and every scrap of paper from the Lucasfilm archives. I have read and studied every single bit of everything that has ever been released about the OT.

There are only a small handful of deleted scenes from Star Wars. It's a couple of minutes of footage. It boils down to a conversation with Luke and Biggs, and the now infamous unfinished Jabba scene. That is a far cry from entire sequences and restructuring of a film after it has already been shot as was done with TFA and TLJ. I mean, the entire films were rejiggered - remember that shot of Maz handing Leia the saber? They restructured the entire film in post - that is a very new thing to the film industry.

You are completely misrepresenting the genius editing job that Marcia Lucas did with the first film. History agrees that it was the editing that made Star Wars what it was. It was in how it was cut together, and shaving a second off here and there - mostly in the dog fighting scenes with the ships, and how it was intercut. Not deciding to completely take apart the film and have 30-60 minutes of scenes that never made it in.

The only exception with Star Wars itself was they did decide early into shooting that they would kill off Obi-wan, which was because he wouldn't have had anything to do with the rest of the film and it seemed like it would work dramatically. Again, this is so different from what you are talking about with what has been done with TFA and now TLJ.

Here is a video that discusses how extensive the editing changes were that made Star Wars the movie it is today. It wasn't just shaving a second off here and there. The original cut was a disaster. It's a miracle we got the absolute masterpiece we ended up with....imo.

 

[AEfx]

No it is not just those two scenes:

Yes, in terms of scenes - it is. The other bits are excised from existing scenes or sequences. It is far different from the restructuring of a film like you are saying is somehow "standard" and has been for all these years.

Incorrect. Now you are overstating their words as well.

Incorrect and overstating are two different things. If I was incorrect, I couldn't also "overstate" it.

You may not like the language I use to discuss it, but the fact remains - the new sequel trilogy was not planned out in advance, the plot has been left up to each subsequent filmmaker. By design. And it was a stupid idea, because that's why TFA and TLJ feel like they take place in two entirely different realities.

 

[Cosmic Commando]

moments like Luke literally tossing the saber aside as evidence that TFA was so terrible that they decided to pretty much start the story from scratch. And things like Snoke making fun of Kylo for being bested by a "girl who never held a saber before" make me realize that they aren't wrong. It's what I have been saying since I saw it - it basically spits on the last film instead of being a continuation of it.

And am I crazy, or do we think Leia specifically greeting Chewie when they're reunited is fan service over the Force Awakens gaffe?

 

[AEfx]

Here is a video that discusses how extensive the editing changes were that made Star Wars the movie it is today. It wasn't just shaving a second off here and there. The original cut was a disaster. It's a miracle we got the absolute masterpiece we ended up with....imo.

Yeah, I've seen it - and well aware of it. We've already covered this.

It's called editing - which is far different from what you are talking about with all this "improvised" and "let's just shoot a film without a finished script" stuff you were originally saying was somehow inherent to filmmaking.

It is so funny though - you have caught me - you've managed to drag me into a conversation about the OT to deflect from what a mess TLJ was because the best you can say is, "Well, the making of the OT was messy, too!". I fell for it!

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Look, you can overstate my point all you want but it doesn’t prove me wrong. But to your point, sometimes they do change story points on the day of shooting and sometimes they improvise. They actually improvised a lot of Thor Ragnarok (about 80%) if what is written about that particular movie’s production process is to be believed...and that is from the mouth of the director himself.

http://www.slashfilm.com/thor-ragnarok-improvised-80-percent/

You should read more about how many famous scenes have been improvised Just google famous improvised movie scenes. You might find it quite interesting.

Did you see ragnarok?

 

[AEfx]

And am I crazy, or do we think Leia specifically greeting Chewie when they're reunited is fan service over the Force Awakens gaffe?

Oh, I'm sure LOL - but that isn't really a bad thing.

What it does do is remind of yet another thing about TLJ, though, that invalidated what was clearly set forth in TFA.

JJ said it was a mistake for her to not also greet Chewie. Some people like to misquote him and say it should have been Chewie instead.

In fact, the moment was very much scripted as part of the finale of the film. Leia, who has never even laid eyes on Rey, embraces her - and the script actually calls out after stating this, "...a mothers embrace" with the ellipses and all. Now that doesn't immediately mean she was her mother (as many did think, and I would have been fine with), but it certainly shows familiarity. They had never even MET before...

That moment, and myriad others, is why TLJ makes TFA make no sense whatsoever.

Oh, and while making sure I got the script line right, I found this. For anyone who really believes that "fans made up" the significance of Rey's parents:

JJ Abrhams: "We're going to make sure that the answer is deeply and profoundly satisfying. Rey is a character that is important in this universe, not just in the context of TFA, but in the entire galaxy. She deserves it. We'll make sure that the answer is something that feels like it happened a long time ago, far away, and we're just telling you what happened."

But yeah...entirely fan created.

 

[bclane]

Yes, in terms of scenes - it is. The other bits are excised from existing scenes or sequences. It is far different from the restructuring of a film like you are saying is somehow "standard" and has been for all these years.



Incorrect and overstating are two different things. If I was incorrect, I couldn't also "overstate" it.

You may not like the language I use to discuss it, but the fact remains - the new sequel trilogy was not planned out in advance, the plot has been left up to each subsequent filmmaker. By design. And it was a stupid idea, because that's why TFA and TLJ feel like they take place in two entirely different realities.

I never said that. Here was my original statement that seems to have gotten you on this topic: "I’m sorry that you don’t realize that some things related to the creative process haven’t changed all that much since 1980." Again, you are overstating my words. Go back and read my posts. And I think that TFA and TLJ fit together just fine. But that is just my opinion. You are free to have your own.

 

[Cosmic Commando]

Oh, I'm sure LOL - but that isn't really a bad thing.

What it does do is remind of yet another thing about TLJ, though, that invalidated what was clearly set forth in TFA.

JJ said it was a mistake for her to not also greet Chewie. Some people like to misquote him and say it should have been Chewie instead.

In fact, the moment was very much scripted as part of the finale of the film. Leia, who has never even laid eyes on Rey, embraces her - and the script actually calls out after stating this, "...a mothers embrace" with the ellipses and all. Now that doesn't immediately mean she was her mother (as many did think, and I would have been fine with), but it certainly shows familiarity. They had never even MET before...

That moment, and myriad others, is why TLJ makes TFA make no sense whatsoever.

Oh, and while making sure I got the script line right, I found this. For anyone who really believes that "fans made up" the significance of Rey's parents:

JJ Abrhams: "We're going to make sure that the answer is deeply and profoundly satisfying. Rey is a character that is important in this universe, not just in the context of TFA, but in the entire galaxy. She deserves it. We'll make sure that the answer is something that feels like it happened a long time ago, far away, and we're just telling you what happened."

But yeah...entirely fan created.

I liked thinking that the embrace was because Leia felt Han's death through Rey's feelings, but Chewie! Leia hugging Chewie would have been the tearjerker moment of the movie. It's almost unfathomable to me that the two people who knew Han best are in the same place at the same time in the movie, and we don't see them acknowledge each other/Han's death. I'm still positive on both movies and the sequel trilogy, but I think that moment kinda proved that JJ's heart wasn't quite in the right place. I would 1,000,000% support TFA Special Edition where they digitally replace Rey with Chewie. If they can turn a weird chubby guy in fur into Jabba...

 

[AEfx]

I never said that. Here was my original statement that seems to have gotten you on this topic: "I’m sorry that you don’t realize that some things related to the creative process haven’t changed all that much since 1980." Again, you are overstating my words. Go back and read my posts. And I think that TFA and TLJ fit together just fine. But that is just my opinion. You are free to have your own.

Then you haven't watched TFA lately. Sorry man, some stuff ("I liked this, I didn't like that") is opinion, but TLJ explicitly contradicts TFA in so many ways. You can like that it did, but denying it does just makes little sense.

 

[bclane]

Yeah, I've seen it - and well aware of it. We've already covered this.

It's called editing - which is far different from what you are talking about with all this "improvised" and "let's just shoot a film without a finished script" stuff you were originally saying was somehow inherent to filmmaking.

It is so funny though - you have caught me - you've managed to drag me into a conversation about the OT to deflect from what a mess TLJ was because the best you can say is, "Well, the making of the OT was messy, too!". I fell for it!

OMG. I never said lets just shoot a film without a finished script. You are the king of straw man arguments tonight man good grief. Take a few breaths and go back and read the conversation I was having with sirwalterraleigh and please stop overstating my positions. But yeah, I did point out that things are sometimes improvised and used Thor Ragnarok as an example as a counterpoint to sirwalterraleigh's incorrect point that they don't do this with big films. Anyway, I need to move on from this as I have hours of work to do still tonight...which sucks because Star Wars discussions are much more interesting.

 

[bclane]

Did you see ragnarok?

Yes, it was fantastic, imo.