Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Ep 8). SPOILERS. Plot points revealed and discussed.

[flynnibus]

I don't mind hux- it's a play on the extremism of the nazis and I'm fine with that.

I'm not really cool with this "arms dealer" angle. The empire has had this imagine of strength through oppression... assets through scale and Omnipresence. The first order is like the empires little offspring formed from the fragments of the empire. They've built PLANETS!

And now we are going to bring them to the level they get this stuff through arms dealers!?!? That then begs how does the first order have all this economic power verse just being an oppressive force that just takes what it needs. Just further complicating the stories. Should have just left the slave/oppression images... not the "it's just business" people. Yuk

 

[StarWarsGirl]

I've heard that Bloodline is good, and so is Thrawn.

This is a spoiler for that novel, though...at least as I've heard it...

Post TLJ, the galaxy became aware that Vader was the father of Luke and Leia, and shunned them as a result. They went off in their own peaceful way, while Leia created the Resistance because she, and only she, knew the evil that was still out there...

That...makes no sense to me, on so many levels...

And, if that is indeed the case in the book, it's part of what has kept me from picking it up.

It is the case that the galaxy did not know Vader was the father of Luke and Leia and it does come out in Bloodline...but it's an oversimplification to say that was the only reason she formed the Rebellion. You really need to read the novel to get the full picture.

What I really liked about that novel was in my mind, it was hard to bridge the gap between "The Empire fell and they formed a Republic...and then what the h*ll happened that brought the Republic down?" It made much more sense after reading that book. It also really developed Leia's character. That alone makes it well worth the read.

I've been wanting to read Thrawn. Been waiting for a decent price on Amazon. I check out most books from the library, I collect my Star Wars books.

 

[englanddg]

I don't mind hux- it's a play on the extremism of the nazis and I'm fine with that.

I'm not really cool with this "arms dealer" angle. The empire has had this imagine of strength through oppression... assets through scale and Omnipresence. The first order is like the empires little offspring formed from the fragments of the empire. They've built PLANETS!

And now we are going to bring them to the level they get this stuff through arms dealers!?!? That then begs how does the first order have all this economic power verse just being an oppressive force that just takes what it needs. Just further complicating the stories. Should have just left the slave/oppression images... not the "it's just business" people. Yuk

Cartoonish nazis are fine. But, you still need a Rommell...

In the Rebels series, that is Thrawn. In the original movies, that was Tarkin.

The First Order...doesn't have any serious tactician.

 

[BrianLo]

First I'll just say that Rey being the unexplained Mary Sue was JJ's problem, not Rian's. I just saw a movie with a force user literally toying with her and tossing her around like a rag-doll for several minutes.

I've long been on the train of having Rey be a nobody. It was discussed frequently in the lead up to this movie how despite the story being a galaxy, it seems very small with everyone inevitably related to everyone else. That part works for me, she does not need Skywalker or Obi Wan lineage to be impactful, that move expands the universe.

I also don't think direct parental-relations to anyone fixes the issue that JJ created, would I seriously be satisfied that Rey is overpowered because she was secretly Luke's daughter he stashed away? That isn't a fix.

Anakin was a child, Luke and Ben were privileged. Rey did not need any of the important lessons Yoda imparted on Luke (discipline, patience, resolve). Yoda did not teach Luke to wield the force, he taught him important traits to balance himself with it. I have zero issue with Rey being more in-tuned with the force from the get go, she inevitably lived Jedi training with her life on Jakku without realizing it. Once the Force awoke in her, I see no issue with it and her naturally exceeding expectations compared to Luke who lacked any initial personality quality needed from a force user.

The Jedi mind trick in Force Awakens was a mistake - JJ clearly did it for the humour, but that was his mistake. Beating up Kylo who was injured, severely lacked discipline and patient - AND was beyond resolve in any sense? That makes sense that she took the upper hand to me. The force is more than just training to yield.

When Rey inevitably went toe-to-toe with a trained and disciplined user, she got her handed to her. Overpowered indeed?

 

[englanddg]

On a visual note...am I the only one who thought Chewy flying through the planet (probably intentionally) nearly mirrored the flight through the second death star in ROJ?

 

[englanddg]

First I'll just say that Rey being the unexplained Mary Sue was JJ's problem, not Rian's. I just saw a movie with a force user literally toying with her and tossing her around like a rag-doll for several minutes.

I've long been on the train of having Rey be a nobody. It was discussed frequently in the lead up to this movie how despite the story being a galaxy, it seems very small with everyone inevitably related to everyone else. That part works for me, she does not need Skywalker or Obi Wan lineage to be impactful, that move expands the universe.

I also don't think direct parental-relations to anyone fixes the issue that JJ created, would I seriously be satisfied that Rey is overpowered because she was secretly Luke's daughter he stashed away? That isn't a fix.

Anakin was a child, Luke and Ben were privileged. Rey did not need any of the important lessons Yoda imparted on Luke (discipline, patience, resolve). Yoda did not teach Luke to wield the force, he taught him important traits to balance himself with it. I have zero issue with Rey being more in-tuned with the force from the get go, she inevitably lived Jedi training with her life on Jakku without realizing it. Once the Force awoke in her, I see no issue with it and her naturally exceeding expectations compared to Luke who lacked any initial personality quality needed from a force user.

The Jedi mind trick in Force Awakens was a mistake - JJ clearly did it for the humour, but that was his mistake. Beating up Kylo who was injured, severely lacked discipline and patient - AND was beyond resolve in any sense? That makes sense that she took the upper hand to me. The force is more than just training to yield.

When Rey inevitably went toe-to-toe with a trained and disciplined user, she got her *** handed to her. Overpowered indeed?

Good points.

 

[Tick Tock]

When Rey inevitably went toe-to-toe with a trained and disciplined user, she got her *** handed to her. Overpowered indeed?

I was personally looking forward to a Snoke vs. Luke showdown in either this movie or Episode 9. One of the greatest Jedi of all time against an evil that makes the Emperor himself look like child's play. That would've been epic beyond words.

Instead, we see a once hero of the galaxy stay hidden on his island and send a Force image of himself to fight be a distraction for Kylo to yell at and swing a lightsaber at until he realizes he's been fooled. Yippee!

 

[Lora Baines Bradley]

By not having Rey be related to Luke, it heavily weakens the idea of Rey wanting to redeem Kylo. Why should she care? Yes, I know she saw a vision from Smoke so she thought she was going to be able to redeem Kylo, but why should she care if she does or not? However, had they just made her the daughter of Luke Skywalker from the very beginning of The Force Awakens instead of a nobody girl from Jakku, the family connection between Kylo and Rey would add a lot more to her motivations in this movie.

If Rey was Luke's daughter, that would have made her and Kylo cousins. That doesn't have much emotional pull. Yeah, they're related, but not closely enough that it's compelling.

I believe the reason she cares about Kylo's fate is because of their Force Bond. They are connected. To the extent is not known, but it is a pretty strong one. I don't think she'll be so naive trying to bring him back in IX, but she has this unbreakable connection with him and feels a bit of sympathy since she learned that Luke tried to kill Kylo.

 

[JohnD]

I was personally looking forward to a Snoke vs. Luke showdown in either this movie or Episode 9. One of the greatest Jedi of all time against an evil that makes the Emperor himself look like child's play. That would've been epic beyond words.

Instead, we see a once hero of the galaxy stay hidden on his island and send a Force image of himself to fight be a distraction for Kylo to yell at and swing a lightsaber at until he realizes he's been fooled. Yippee!

What could have been. Sigh...

 

[flynnibus]

Anakin was a child, Luke and Ben were privileged. Rey did not need any of the important lessons Yoda imparted on Luke (discipline, patience, resolve). Yoda did not teach Luke to wield the force, he taught him important traits to balance himself with it. I have zero issue with Rey being more in-tuned with the force from the get go, she inevitably lived Jedi training with her life on Jakku without realizing it. Once the Force awoke in her, I see no issue with it and her naturally exceeding expectations compared to Luke who lacked any initial personality quality needed from a force user.

This line of thinking ignores Jedi before Luke had a lifetime of training... started when they were children. Call it conservative to have 20 years of training. Luke and Anakin were not just force strong citizens of the universe... anakin was straight up Virgin Mary stuff... and his offspring bear that signs of lineage. The take away from those two characters was that strong with the force is raw talent.... that needs refinements... not that training makes up for force abilities.

Just growing up in the slums doesn't hone you into Jedi-ready... nor were simply good balanced people Jedi-ready. If they were.... the Jedi did it wrong for thousands of years. Having the values herself makes her better suited to follow the light side... but that wouldn't explain her meteoric rise in harnessing the force.

All along jedi have been painted as masters of harnessing the force through almost monk like training for many years. Jedi training isn't to just get people to a wholesome level... it's training specifically in the arts of the force.

Rey being well rooted doesn't negate her need for training of her mind and awareness.

I mean... following your logic there should be thousands of Rey's in the galaxy that could rise up at anytime. TPM taught us that Jedi are pulled from all over and are not unique to certain races. If Rey wasn't different... her story would be interchangeable with countless others. That doesn't jive with her standing out even to the sith

 

[flynnibus]

And Luke grew up a poor moisture farmer...not privileged. He was a farm boy on a desolate planet... whose strongest influences were grey market smugglers and gangsters.

What's privledged in that?

 

[BrianLo]

And Luke grew up a poor moisture farmer...not privileged. He was a farm boy on a desolate planet... whose strongest influences were grey market smugglers and gangsters.

What's privledged in that?

Not privileged in the monetary sense. He has parental figures, a roof over his head, food, teen angst, dissatisfaction with his life. He tinkered, but he was no great hero.

JJ (perhaps wrongly) started Rey off as a hero from the moment go, before Finn landed on her step.

 

[englanddg]

 

[flynnibus]

I do think they are playing the "Everyman" angle to the rebellion.

It's why Finn is just a random.... it's why we get the plot elements in last Jedi about the poor slaves... and the grass roots resistance in the ranks of the poor. Heros are made from nobodies... The rebels are meant to be made up of idealists pushing back against oppression... not just a struggle between two power factions.

But that doesn't explain Rey... and that would be like "anyone can stand up to the sith if you just have a good heart...". No... there is more there I think.

And we know how much they loved to use misdirection in and leading up to this film. I don't see why Rey's story isn't more of that

 

[BrianLo]

I mean... following your logic there should be thousands of Rey's in the galaxy that could rise up at anytime.

Well yes, you still need the secret sauce, force sensitivity.

Unfortunately what you (and I) just proposed is broom boy, so apparently that's the logic they are going with.

 

[flynnibus]

Not privileged in the monetary sense. He has parental figures, a roof over his head, food, teen angst, dissatisfaction with his life. He tinkered, but he was no great hero.

JJ (perhaps wrongly) started Rey off as a hero from the moment go, before Finn landed on her step.

Luke's story is one of who believes there are bigger things in life than what has been his daily life. He's lived a modest life... not really rebellious. It's why he struggled with going against his uncle's rules with the droids etc. his struggle was with "being held back" - not so much about raw emotions unchecked.

 

[flynnibus]

Well yes, you still need the secret sauce, force sensitivity.

Unfortunately what you (and I) just proposed is broom boy, so apparently that's the logic they are going with.

Broom boy is about the rebels... not necessarily jedi

And the history has shown force sensitivity is something that needs honing and training.... not just good morals

 

[TROR]

If Rey was Luke's daughter, that would have made her and Kylo cousins. That doesn't have much emotional pull. Yeah, they're related, but not closely enough that it's compelling.

I believe the reason she cares about Kylo's fate is because of their Force Bond. They are connected. To the extent is not known, but it is a pretty strong one. I don't think she'll be so naive trying to bring him back in IX, but she has this unbreakable connection with him and feels a bit of sympathy since she learned that Luke tried to kill Kylo.

Wanting to save your cousin makes more sense than wanting to save someone who killed his father who was kind to you.

 

[BrianLo]

Broom boy is about the rebels... not necessarily jedi

He used the force to grab his broom.

 

[englanddg]

Not privileged in the monetary sense. He has parental figures, a roof over his head, food, teen angst, dissatisfaction with his life. He tinkered, but he was no great hero.

JJ (perhaps wrongly) started Rey off as a hero from the moment go, before Finn landed on her step.

He started her off as a desert rat scrambling for subsistence. Then immediately catapulted her into the most influential, most powerful, super duper force using jedi we've ever seen because...reasons.

And, reasons will be inserted, at some point. She may be from "nobody", but she herself is a somebody...because, she did the moral equivalent of hitting her head and suddenly becoming a math genius, and not just any old math genius, the most powerful genius EVAR...she makes Einstein look foolish...

So, she has savant syndrome.

How...interesting? Perhaps.

Heroic? Not so sure.