Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Ep 8). SPOILERS. Plot points revealed and discussed.

[JohnD]

Since this is spoiler away...

I respect that they didn't recut the film when fisher died...

...but I would killed the character off by now anyway...

It's been a disaster...I'm sorry, if you can no longer pronounce dialogue, you should not be in talking pictures...

This has been an experiment in recognizing an old Hollywood sage...not much more. It's been painful to watch. And then she entered the matrix...that's jar jar level from a visual standpoint.

It turns out it wouldn’t have been hard to kill her off as she was shot into space. Should could have died a graceful death right there rather than going all Mary Poppins on us. All remaining scenes of her were reaction shots anyway and not relevant to the story. They could have cut around those.

 

[JohnD]

Well, I was going a slightly different direction.

So, one of the things that bothers me about it (and bothers me about ST: D, frankly)...is the way they portray military operations...or, heck, civilian ones.

Environment as a whole has become a greenscreen (and I'm not talking about the effects), with lots of "detail", but little nuance or realism.

But...where I was going with it is...

Hux - A clown who loses a dreadnaught in the first scene to a half arsed attack...and, yeah, yeah, I know Poe was supposed to look the hero in this, but come on...if ONE star fighter (even Luke didn't go in with ONE starfighter) can do that...meh. And, the "your mother" joke, everthing towards the beginning. It sounded like something Seth Green would write, not Canon in a universe taking itself seriously trying to present serious things. But, I know some writer thought "oh, this is so witty, oh snap!".

And, then this overwhelming battleship we've never seen before with super duper guns and everything....can't swat a fly.

Now, that is fine when it is once in a while (the Falcon hiding on the back of a Star Destroyer)...but, it is every...danged...scene... Every encounter. No losses, no wins. Just total ineptness.

And...Hux. Hux, acting like a buffoon.

Oh, but then you have Ren, who, while he is growing on me as a character (mostly due to the good acting, not the writing)...is still overly emotional and just...stupid.

Flat...out...stupid.

So, my point is...why do I not really care? There is no threat.

If I hear Hux yell, “Or-DA!” one more time...

 

[Princess Leia]

Can anyone explain why the First Order isn’t suiting all of the stormtroopers in whatever material Phasma had on? She was much harder to kill in that armor.

 

[fractal]

Well, I was going a slightly different direction.

So, one of the things that bothers me about it (and bothers me about ST: D, frankly)...is the way they portray military operations...or, heck, civilian ones.

Environment as a whole has become a greenscreen (and I'm not talking about the effects), with lots of "detail", but little nuance or realism.

But...where I was going with it is...

Hux - A clown who loses a dreadnaught in the first scene to a half arsed attack...and, yeah, yeah, I know Poe was supposed to look the hero in this, but come on...if ONE star fighter (even Luke didn't go in with ONE starfighter) can do that...meh. And, the "your mother" joke, everthing towards the beginning. It sounded like something Seth Green would write, not Canon in a universe taking itself seriously trying to present serious things. But, I know some writer thought "oh, this is so witty, oh snap!".

And, then this overwhelming battleship we've never seen before with super duper guns and everything....can't swat a fly.

Now, that is fine when it is once in a while (the Falcon hiding on the back of a Star Destroyer)...but, it is every...danged...scene... Every encounter. No losses, no wins. Just total ineptness.

And...Hux. Hux, acting like a buffoon.

Oh, but then you have Ren, who, while he is growing on me as a character (mostly due to the good acting, not the writing)...is still overly emotional and just...stupid.

Flat...out...stupid.

So, my point is...why do I not really care? There is no threat.

Couldn't agree more. Opening scene was stupid; "hi, calling General Hux. still holding..." and didn't the resistance just destroy their super weapon? shouldn't the First Order be the one's on the run? Hux is a cartoon character - in fact so are most of the people in this film. The great thing about the original trilogy was that the characters despite being in a far off galaxy in different worlds surrounded by assorted aliens; they sounded and spoke like real people. The said things genuine and not contrived. You could easily connect to them.

I think about what Harrison Ford said to George Lucas "you can type this sh*t but you can't say it".

Almost none of the dialogue made me care about any of these characters. Then the scene when Finn wakes up. Cartoonish and stupid. Like he'd just walk around in a leaky suit and nobody would help this fallen hero (remember when Rose first saw him - she immediately recognized him as Finn). Just - so dumb.

Back to the Dreadnaught - Dreadnaught's were ships that carried heavy artillery, not very fast, but heavily fortified. Did this ship even have shields? The rebel ship had shields strong enough to withstand bombardment for the entire movie but this "scary" ship was basically just a sitting duck.

Then there was all the political messaging going on - halfway through the movie I thought "who wrote this, Rob Reiner?"

So much more wrong with this movie, but there was a few scenes that for me almost salvaged it...

 

[fractal]

Can anyone explain why the First Order isn’t suiting all of the stormtroopers in whatever material Phasma had on? She was much harder to kill in that armor.

No - many things in the movie can't be explained other than "yeah, that will look cool."

 

[Lora Baines Bradley]

I’m probably gonna be pulled into another debate and regret this but here we go...

To all the people saying “we need explanation!”: we still have another film. honestly one of my qualms with this film is that I don’t really think there is much more to tell in the next one, so there will be plenty of time to expand on Rey’s backstory and why she is so powerful with the Force. Not to mention- leaving it unanswered means they can expand in books, TV, and video games. What do I personally believe? I think the Force is trying to balance itself, a la Anakin virgin birth, and that’s why Rey’s OP.

There are some things I didn’t like about the movie. Canto Bight was underdeveloped. One of the things the prequels did right was the amazing locales. I liked Crait, but Canto Bight was just...meh. It felt small. I think it may have worked better if Canto Bight was a city on an established planet- like Naboo, for instance. That would have been a nice callback. And I loved the Finn and Rose relationship, but the whole Canto Bight/DJ plotline was a tad uneventful. It dragged a bit. I wanted to get back to Luke and Rey most of the time.

I thought the scene with the kid at the end was dumb. I’m sorry, but the first time I saw it, I was like “really?” I didn’t see the kid move the broom with the Force. I’ll have to look for it next time and maybe it’ll mean more to me.

And I can’t believe I’m saying this, but Leia should have died in that scene on the bridge. It would have been a good send off to the character. IIRC, if she did die, Poe would have been responsible, right? T would have really raised the guilt for him. For her to just die offscreen in IX is a disservice to the Princess we all know and love. And honestly? Leia’s death paired with Luke’s would have fit right along with the theme of letting the past die. Maybe her death will fit into a plot point in 9. We’ll just have to wait and see.

I can’t believe people are saying the visuals weren’t great. The shot of the ship going through the Star Destroyer at lightspeed...wow. Not to mention Luke’s death with the binary sunset...there were definitely more shots that I thought were beautiful that I can’t recall at the moment. Everything happened so fast! I saw it a day ago and I’m still reeling. It’s on the same level as R1, for me. Maybe even better, but I'm not sure yet.

 

[flynnibus]

I defended Rey when Force Awakened came out from many calling her a Mary Sue, expecting her feats to have some sort of explanation going forward. And Last Jedi might be lying to us and planting red herrings. But as it stands with the current movies, her abilities make no sense whatsoever and I would indeed label her a Mary Sue.

The problem with Rey is not that she's a nobody who becomes a jedi. The issue is how she learned it (she really didn't), her progression (there is none) and who she is able to defeat (a stretch even in an ideal situation).

Anakin had the highest force potential on record and still needed a lot of training to pull off anything beyond unconscious instinct and reflex based feats. Rey's great piloting skills make sense within the context of what Anakin and Luke did. But she exhibits advanced feats that even the most powerful jedi couldn't do without a lot of training. With no training or knowledge of the ability, and minimal effort, she mind tricks a stormtrooper. Before that, she managed to fight off Kylo Ren's mental probe and turn it back on him. She later overpowers his telekinetic pull and claims the lightsaber as her own. Again this was without ANY sort of training whatsoever, against an insanely powerful and highly trained Skywalker (albeit wounded at this point, though not earlier with the mind probe).

To put it into perspective, Luke started out as a great pilot with excellent reflexes and instincts just like his father. He inherited his father's strength in the force, whose raw potential Geoge Lucas stated in an interview to be twice that of the Emperor's. Yet it took Luke three years (after learning about the force and a few lessons from Obi Wan) to being barely able to move his lightsaber about 12 inches. And that was without there being another immensely powerful (and highly trained) Skywalker fighting him over the blade. He progressed much quicker with Yoda, but we still saw him struggle. At the beginning he had difficulty levitating one small stone, eventually with time he was able to handle several larger objects at once (with visible effort). Regardless, it was with a lot of intense training that he got to where he did at the end of Ep5. After all of this, Luke still ended up losing fairly spectacularly against his father. This also in spite of Vader being a broken shell of his former self, losing over half of his original force potential due to his injuries. Not to mention his heavy and uncomfortable armor, prosthetic limbs and breathing equipment.

There are a lot of problems with Rey's feats of power. If she's not a Skywalker or another "Chosen One" (or some other explanation to put her on their strength in the force), there is no reason she should be able to compare to or overpower Kylo Ren (a highly trained Skywalker demonstrated to be very powerful). Even with years of intensive training, it should be difficult if not impossible for a supposed "nobody" to defeat such an adversary. She can still be uncommonly gifted with the force compared to other jedi or sith, Yoda and the Emperor were extremely powerful and it's not implausible that she could be in their ballpark or even above them. But that still shouldn't put her on par with a Skywalker. And again, unlike Yoda or the Emperor, she still lacks the necessary experience to logically explain her feats.

Suffice to say, I found Rey a promising character in Episode 7. And again, it's entirely possible (perhaps even likely) that they're misleading us about her. I still find her personality kind and likable (she isn't annoying and is well acted by Daisy Ridley), but as of now her character is a nonsensical mess. And yes, a Mary Sue.

I think the story tool is the line snope talks about when as kylo rises... so does his opposite

But yeah, the whole Rey is a natural.... but also a nobody doesn't jive.

Also... "teach me..." and the whole course is like 2 days??

The kylo answer to Rey on her origin won't stand as is... there is more to it

 

[Princess Leia]

Look, I’m probably going to get some hate for this, but I would not be mad if they recast Leia for IX.

Pick a talented actress in her late 50s-mid 60s and just run with it. I do not want Leia to die offscreen. VIII was Carrie’s swan song, but it wasn’t Leia’s.

 

[flynnibus]

I left the theatre feeling like.... okkkkkkkkk.... instead of "oh yeah!"

The film reminded me of empire in ways..... a painfully slow 2nd quarter... the "teach me! No!" Banter... the frustrating "middle film without closure" feeling at the end.

I felt the film was good... but not great as it seemed to lack satisfaction

I hated Luke's send off... and the Loki trick as the a ha moment.

I thought the snope death sequence was a bit contrived in how it was edited and lacked suspense/gasp when it finally happened.

I did like the play out on if kylo would turn or not...

The "we only have 18hrs of fuel bit..." was horrible. Really lacked credibility. What... no one can't just jump ahead and setup a roadblock? Don't have any other friends to call and approach from the other side? Yet other ships come and go in this chase... Let's make everything else in the film try to fit inside this horrible timeline to force a sense of urgency?

I'm still not clear how this tracker can now track their ship? Also If this tracker is on one ship... can you not try simply splitting and heading different directions? There was some attempt at setting up this constraint but it didn't register for me

Did they watch guardians and go, oh that's how we will save leia...

I didn't buy into the new rebel admiral character at all.

Film felt really long

The Jedi island characters were good for the comic relief. The humor earlier in the film was kind of up and down... but the Jedi island was good... as was bb8's coin gags... and the kylo shuttle pilot (best of the film).

The film's effects worked as they should... just make it real without being the spotlight themselves.

Thank god the story wasn't just a rehash like TFA was.

But I'm not eager to see it again yet. Feels more like homework than entertainment...

 

[flynnibus]

I loved the return of esb era yoda personality!

I've never liked leia of this post triology era.... she is way too much "post cocaine Carrie Fischer" and not enough leia spunk. I'd prefer a leia that aged better.

 

[flynnibus]

And what about the cliche the admiral needs to stay behind on the cruiser...

What, the cruiser doesn't have auto pilot?

No one wants to sacrifice one of their precious droids???

The whole rebels-on-the-run arc is pretty forced and thin

 

[fractal]

To highlight just how utterly stupid the opening scene is - the entire premise of the "battle" revolves around dropping payloads of bombs...in space.

I can't quite remember if the bombs actually made a "whistling sound".

 

[Princess Leia]

I loved the return of esb era yoda personality!

I've never liked leia of this post triology era.... she is way too much "post cocaine Carrie Fischer" and not enough leia spunk. I'd prefer a leia that aged better.

I was so happy that Yoda was back to the way I always loved him- senile, but wise. The Yoda we got in the prequels never had the heart that he did in ESB and RotJ. And he looked better too. I don’t know if they made a puppet, or just did CGI in the style of the OT, but he looked good.

These films woefully underused Carrie. She was hilarious in real life, up until her death, and I cannot figure out why the writers cut out Leia’s humor. They kept the warmth and the leadership, but the sass was lacking.

As for how she aged... cocaine doesn’t exactly do any favors to anyone. Carrie’s drug habit is what killed her. I will always love Carrie Fisher, but she didn’t seek the help she desperately needed, and now Billie is without a mother, and Gary is without an owner whose name rhymed with his.

 

[RandySavage]

The reaction to the movie has been more entertaining for me than the movie itself... some of the snark out there on the web:

"The painfully long x-wing radio distraction skit at the start brought a sort of lazy modern sit-com quality to proceedings that I’ve always felt was missing from the Star Wars universe."

"I like when Luke brushes his shoulder off, that really felt in character and true to the world of Star Wars and the spirit of the originals. The only thing that could have made it more authentically Star Wars was if he had dabbed."



***
A lot of debate has been around the story choices and plot points, but before getting to those, I have trouble getting past the casting/performances.

About half the major characters I thought could have been much better cast or performed, with Domhall Gleeson's hammy young general being the worst... irked me every time he was onscreen (in both this and TFA). Cringeworthy.

Additional casting/performances I felt were particularly poor: Adam Driver, the girl who plays Rose, Laura Dern and Carrie Fischer who felt/sounded/looked like a completely different actress had been cast in the role (in both new movies). Del Toro would have been okay, if not for the unnecessary stutter gimmick.

 

[Princess Leia]

To highlight just how utterly stupid the opening scene is - the entire premise of the "battle" revolves around dropping payloads of bombs...in space.

I can't quite remember if the bombs actually made a "whistling sound".

Star Wars has never been scientifically correct when it comes to sounds in space though; when a film does it correctly, like Interstellar, I’m pretty impressed.

 

[fractal]

Star Wars has never been scientifically correct when it comes to sounds in space though; when a film does it correctly, like Interstellar, I’m pretty impressed.

Yes, but they've been pretty consistent with respecting the fact that there is no gravity in space. Like when Han Solo floated away with the rest of the garbage. I'm so mad.

 

[Princess Leia]

The reaction to the movie has been more entertaining for me than the movie itself... some of the snark out there on the web:

"The painfully long x-wing radio distraction skit at the start brought a sort of lazy modern sit-com quality to proceedings that I’ve always felt was missing from the Star Wars universe."

"I like when Luke brushes his shoulder off, that really felt in character and true to the world of Star Wars and the spirit of the originals. The only thing that could have made it more authentically Star Wars was if he had dabbed."



***
A lot of debate has been around the story choices and plot points, but before getting to those, I have trouble getting past the casting/performances.

About half the major characters I thought could have been much better cast or performed, with Domhall Gleeson's hammy young general being the worst... irked me every time he was onscreen (in both this and TFA). Cringeworthy.

Additional casting/performances I felt were particularly poor: Adam Driver, the girl who plays Rose, Laura Dern and Carrie Fischer who felt/sounded/looked like a completely different actress had been cast in the role (in both new movies). Del Toro would have been okay, if not for the unnecessary stutter gimmick.

I thought Del Toro was pretty great for what he was given. I’m serious when I say I’d be happy to find him and Lando betting on something in IX.

Did anyone else think that Adam Driver’s head was photoshopped onto someone else’s body in that half naked scene???

 

[flynnibus]

To highlight just how utterly stupid the opening scene is - the entire premise of the "battle" revolves around dropping payloads of bombs...in space.

I can't quite remember if the bombs actually made a "whistling sound".

Or how about ships coming of of light speed in orbit making sound on the planet

 

[Princess Leia]

Yes, but they've been pretty consistent with respecting the fact that there is no gravity in space. Like when Han Solo floated away with the rest of the garbage. I'm so mad.

Maybe the size of the ship gave it a gravitational pull?

Yeah I’ve got nothing.

 

[Princess Leia]

I don’t understand this.