Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi NO SPOILERS!!!!

[Disneyfanman]

This is a fascinating debate. I see a ton of movies and usually I can understand the spectrum of reactions I read. This one mystified me because I really enjoyed the film. Everyone I know that saw it enjoyed it, which included old and young and those with and without kids. A lot of people. I was having trouble reconciling my personal experience with what I am reading and the RT audience score.

Reflecting back after a few days, I can see that some of the characters did things that didn’t fit just right and that the tone shift was different. I could have done without the silly casino side trip. The whole thing was like a single episode of a long running TV show which did very little to advance the overall plot (except for those very last few scenes). I still had a blast watching the film.

Admittedly I didn’t like the Phantom Menace at all and marginally enjoyed Clones. Sith felt forced but was the best, for me, of the prequels. The three prequels, as a whole, were chock full of plot but only marginally entertaining. I’ve seen them all in theaters and am in my late 50s (if that is important). I watched them all again recently and my opinion hasn’t changed.

So I guess I now understand the criticism about the plot being (for the most part) unimportant and the characters being slightly off. It still gave me a RUSH of excitement that I haven’t felt at a SW film since Empire. I laughed, was surprised, and enjoyed the performances. 2.5 hours wizzed by. I may see it again.

 

[fractal]

People can have a negative opinion. That's fine.

They can't state their opinion and then imply that it was shared by the majority of the audience when that's not true. Or bolster their opinion on facts that aren't true. If they do that, it's no longer an opinion. It's a lie.

The fact of the matter is, half of the audience doesn't like and if they were really honest with themselves it's probably more than that. I think there is a lot of "Emperor's new clothes" going on.

Secondly, a large majority of the reviews are what I call "C" reviews - 3 out of 5 stars type reviews, which in Rottontomatoes land there is no difference between a C or an A which means not all 93% are equal. There is no Oscar talk with this movie.

 

[MisterPenguin]

The fact of the matter is, half of the audience doesn't like and if they were really honest with themselves it's probably more than that. I think there is a lot of "Emperor's new clothes" going on.

Secondly, a large majority of the reviews are what I call "C" reviews - 3 out of 5 stars type reviews, which in Rottontomatoes land there is no difference between a C or an A which means not all 93% are equal. There is no Oscar talk with this movie.

Amazing. Everything you just said is wrong.

It is not a fact that half the audience doesn't like it. The RT score is not a scientific poll and there's evidence it's been manipulated by Disney-haters. Every scientific poll of people who've seen it shows that 25% love it and 55% like it. That's 80% approval, not 50%.

Those C reviews you mentioned get averaged with all the other reviews and wind up at 8.1/10, which is higher than a C, which means there were a whole lot more As and Bs. An 81% (normalized to 100%) is a high rating from critics on RT. This is in sync with the 86% score from Metacritic. The 93% score on RT is whether the critics recommend seeing it or not; it has little to do whether they give it a fair or rave review.

"And if they were honest with themselves..." Wow. Who's spinning things to reinforce their opinions now? Emperor's new clothes indeed.

 

[fractal]

Just scroll down these user reviews on IMDb and let me know when you hit one that's positive. The viseral reaction is highly negative, as is from all the SW fans I know personally.

And as we've discovered over the last 18 months; scientific polls leave a lot to be desired.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2527336/reviews?ref_=tt_ov_rt

 

[fractal]

Somebody else figured it out...

http://variety.com/2017/film/column...sons-why-its-not-one-for-the-ages-1202643241/

"4. Critics and fans have traded places. Remember the good old days, when there was order in the universe? Reviewers would grouse about a new “Star Wars” installment, and fans would then grouse about them. What a difference half a dozen sequels and the cultural shrinking of criticism makes! It’s not just that “The Last Jedi” has been breathlessly raved about by film critics and, I dare say, more than a touch overpraised (with rare exceptions, like the trenchant and fearless analysis offered by Peter Debruge in his Variety review). It’s that the critics, more and more, are doing their impersonation of egghead fanboys; you can feel how much they want to be on the film’s side. Whereas audiences have come down from the high, taking in the experience of “The Last Jedi,” even on opening weekend, from a place of relative levelheadedness.

The movie has received a 93% Fresh rating from the reviews compiled by Rotten Tomatoes, but — tellingly — only 56% of viewers on the same site have given it a “Like” rating. My own admittedly unscientific anecdotal survey is that the average person I’ve talked to feels underwhelmed by the movie, though in ways they’re not always sure how to define. (The most consistent idea I’ve heard is: It’s no “Empire Strikes Back.”) I’ve seen countless movies I’ve loved more than audiences, but when critics start to sound like fans and fans starts to sound like critics, we may finally have reached a moment when the “Star Wars” galaxy, even in the hyperspace of its success, needs a realignment."

 

[MisterPenguin]

Just scroll down these user reviews on IMDb and let me know when you hit one that's positive. The viseral reaction is highly negative, as is from all the SW fans I know personally.

And as we've discovered over the last 18 months; scientific polls leave a lot to be desired.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2527336/reviews?ref_=tt_ov_rt

Yes. Let's talk about the IMDB reviews; glad you brought it up as a reliable resource. TLJ has a 78% favorable, closer to the 80% that the scientific polling has. But RT has an audience favorability at 54%. How do you explain that difference? IMDB also has significantly more reviews posted.

But, that's the problem with unscientific polls. They're almost completely useless. Using the self-reporting polls from RT or IMDB is a waste of time to bolster any argument about "whether people liked it."

Going through the posted comments and cherry picking the unfavorable ones as proof is... just dumb.

The scientific poll you're referring to were within the margin of error. And there's a difference between trying to nail down what people are going to do based on a poll and just getting at what they rate a particular thing. Those scientific polls pretty much nailed the popular vote.

 

[MisterPenguin]

Somebody else figured it out...

http://variety.com/2017/film/column...sons-why-its-not-one-for-the-ages-1202643241/

"4. Critics and fans have traded places. Remember the good old days, when there was order in the universe? Reviewers would grouse about a new “Star Wars” installment, and fans would then grouse about them.

What part of "the RT audience score is wrong" do you not understand? Real polls show the audience and critics in general agreement, and the majority of both groups like TLJ.

 

[yeti]

I liked it a lot, didn't love it. Is that possible?

Basically the film is worse than the sum of its parts. There was pure gold in this movie's ideas, lines, gags, and set pieces, and the twists were great. It looked beautiful. The best Star Wars movie ever is buried in here somewhere. Unfortunately, it's buried beneath an overwhelming script that feels like it was written on a bender. There is zero timing or structure to the plot; a breakdown of it would look like "this happens, and then this happens, and then this happens..." In other words, they went for an avant garde Star Wars movie, which is an oxymoron.

I know that all sounds harsh, and I did actually like it. I can understand why some people are jumping for joy that we have a Star Wars movie that breaks the mold. I also understand why people might leave this thing scratching their heads.

3/4 stars

 

[fractal]

What part of "the RT audience score is wrong" do you not understand? Real polls show the audience and critics in general agreement, and the majority of both groups like TLJ.

The only numbers that really count.



http://www.showbiz411.com/2017/12/1...eceipts-are-half-as-much-as-the-force-awakens

WEDS UPDATE: “Last Jedi” Tuesday was $20.3 million vs. $37 mil for “Force Awakens” on its first Tuesday. That’s around 42% off. $17 million is a big difference. Monday and Tuesday are big days for adults going to the movies, so this development is a little surprising. Almost every other film increased from Monday to Tuesday by quite a lot. Only “Last Jedi” declined, by 6%. Again, Monday and Tuesday are days when adults come out and sample “smart” movies. For some reason, their interest in “Star Wars” less than was imagined.

 

[5thGenTexan]

I liked it a lot, didn't love it. Is that possible?

Basically the film is worse than the sum of its parts. There was pure gold in this movie's ideas, lines, gags, and set pieces, and the twists were great. It looked beautiful. The best Star Wars movie ever is buried in here somewhere. Unfortunately, it's buried beneath an overwhelming script that feels like it was written on a bender. There is zero timing or structure to the plot; a breakdown of it would look like "this happens, and then this happens, and then this happens..." In other words, they went for an avant garde Star Wars movie, which is an oxymoron.

I know that all sounds harsh, and I did actually like it. I can understand why some people are jumping for joy that we have a Star Wars movie that breaks the mold. I also understand why people might leave this thing scratching their heads.

3/4 stars

This is one my biggest issues. I don't want the mold broken. I want a Star Wars movie that continues the story. If a director wants to make "their movie" that's fine. Go find a new story and make your movie, but leave your "art" out of Star Wars. Maybe Harrison Ford was right when he said "you can type this .... but you cant say it". George Lucas may have written corny cheesy dialogue but I think that may be what made the OT what it was.

 

[Wendy Pleakley]

The fact of the matter is, half of the audience doesn't like and if they were really honest with themselves it's probably more than that. I think there is a lot of "Emperor's new clothes" going on.

Comments like this are, quite frankly, ridiculous and obnoxious.

"I didn't like the movie, and the people that did are in denial!"

Different people had, *gasp*, a different opinion of the movie than you did.

The need to have your opinion of the movie be the only "correct" one is absurd.

 

[fractal]

Comments like this are, quite frankly, ridiculous and obnoxious.

"I didn't like the movie, and the people that did are in denial!"

Different people had, *gasp*, a different opinion of the movie than you did.

The need to have your opinion of the movie be the only "correct" one is absurd.

Ok - so saying the number is really higher is ok, but saying the number is really lower is not.

Got it and I don't need it to be correct since it already is.

 

[fractal]

Comments like this are, quite frankly, ridiculous and obnoxious.

"I didn't like the movie, and the people that did are in denial!"

I never said that so please don't quote me as if I did.

 

[MisterPenguin]

It's OK to say "I didn't like The Last Jedi." Really, it is.

20% of people who saw it on Friday of opening weekend agree with you. That's a lot of people, even though a minority of the total.

It's just not OK to say half or most people hated it. That's not true based on the scientific polling done Friday night. The claim that half hated it is based on one unscientific internet poll (RT). Another unscientific internet poll on another site (IMDB) had a larger number of participants and it backed up the scientific poll and conflicted greatly with the other unscientific poll.

So, if you say you don't like it. That's OK. I don't like MK's PotC and I know I'm in the minority on that one, and I'm OK with it. There's no need to say that everybody agrees with you to validate an opinion. Even if you were the only person in the world to dislike TLJ, that's OK.

 

[fractal]

It's OK to say "I didn't like The Last Jedi." Really, it is.

20% of people who saw it on Friday of opening weekend agree with you. That's a lot of people, even though a minority of the total.

It's just not OK to say half or most people hated it. That's not true based on the scientific polling done Friday night. The claim that half hated it is based on one unscientific internet poll (RT). Another unscientific internet poll on another site (IMDB) had a larger number of participants and it backed up the scientific poll and conflicted greatly with the other unscientific poll.

So, if you say you don't like it. That's OK. I don't like MK's PotC and I know I'm in the minority on that one, and I'm OK with it. There's no need to say that everybody agrees with you to validate an opinion. Even if you were the only person in the world to dislike TLJ, that's OK.

I didn't say half - rotten tomatoes did. As far as a "scientific" poll on a Star Wars opening night when people show up dressed like Gamorreans, I would think there would be a lot of fellow "nerd" peer pressure to toe the line. A private vote online seems more likely to garner an honest opinion.

So please don't mis-quote me and please don't patronize me. I didn't like the movie for many reasons and feel like the SW fandom has set such a low bar for SW movies that we will never have a great one again. In fact 1980 was the last great SW movie IMO. Perhaps I'm wrong - the second week of ticket sales will be telling, and so far it's not looking good.

I'll continue to discuss and debate the points of the movie itself and leave the debate on valid vs invalid polls to you.

 

[Wendy Pleakley]

I never said that so please don't quote me as if I did.

I would think there would be a lot of fellow "nerd" peer pressure to toe the line

You literally said the same thing again.

The people who liked the movie, didn't *really* like it in your eyes. They're "not being honest" or they're claiming to like it out of some sort of obligation.

 

[spacemt354]

I didn't say half - rotten tomatoes did. As far as a "scientific" poll on a Star Wars opening night when people show up dressed like Gamorreans, I would think there would be a lot of fellow "nerd" peer pressure to toe the line. A private vote online seems more likely to garner an honest opinion.

So please don't mis-quote me and please don't patronize me. I didn't like the movie for many reasons and feel like the SW fandom has set such a low bar for SW movies that we will never have a great one again. In fact 1980 was the last great SW movie IMO. Perhaps I'm wrong - the second week of ticket sales will be telling, and so far it's not looking good.

I'll continue to discuss and debate the points of the movie itself and leave the debate on valid vs invalid polls to you.

RT has the unscientific poll that conflicts with several scientifically derived polls, yet you decide to quote RT so it fits your view.

You then said "as a matter of fact, half the audience doesn't like it" That is misleading.

And with regard to box office, this film was never going to make more than The Force Awakens. Anyone who thought that was kidding themselves. That film was lightning in a bottle, just like the other 2 films that have over $2 Billion at the box office. Very hard to catch it twice in a two year span. TLJ will also most likely drop by more than 60% this weekend, due to 3 other films coming out. And Christmas. If it doesn't then that is really good.

Pretty sure Disney will survive with a $1.4-1.6 Billion total, and the 2nd largest opening weekend of all time. Gosh, that looks so terrible.

 

[fractal]

RT has the unscientific poll that conflicts with several scientifically derived polls, yet you decide to quote RT so it fits your view.

You then said "as a matter of fact, half the audience doesn't like it" That is misleading.

And with regard to box office, this film was never going to make more than The Force Awakens. Anyone who thought that was kidding themselves. That film was lightning in a bottle, just like the other 2 films that have over $2 Billion at the box office. Very hard to catch it twice in a two year span. TLJ will also most likely drop by more than 60% this weekend, due to 3 other films coming out. And Christmas. If it doesn't then that is really good.

Pretty sure Disney will survive with a $1.4-1.6 Billion total, and the 2nd largest opening weekend of all time. Gosh, that looks so terrible.

I wasn't the one posting box office receipts when the movie opened "proving" how great it was. Now that it's going the other way all the excuses come out. The fact is, Monday and Tuesday's numbers were well below expectations. With any luck, it means the end of Rian Johnson's hands on SW.

 

[Ripken10]

I wasn't the one posting box office receipts when the movie opened "proving" how great it was. Now that it's going the other way all the excuses come out. The fact is, Monday and Tuesday's numbers were well below expectations. With any luck, it means the end of Rian Johnson's hands on SW.

You can make numbers say whatever you want, and that's what your doing to try to prove your point. Unfortunately for you, you are not correct. As they said, The Force Awakens was lightning in a bottle, just like Avatar. There will be people like you that claim the second movie (assuming it comes out) is horrible when it can't reach the numbers of the first. Of course it won't. TLJ had a lower drop on the Monday and Tuesday then Avengers, and the same drop as Jurassic World. That means of the 4 movies that made over 200 million opening weekends, The Force Awakens had the best decline (no surprise there, supporting the "lightning in a bottle" notion), Avengers had the worse, and Jurassic World & TLJ were in the middle, making them what you should expect for a drop after such a large opening. The Monday and Tuesday before Christmas is not a big adult movie day in the movie business. It's quite the contrary in fact. And with a huge number of new movies coming out this week (5 large, several small, and many award hopefuls expanding), my opinion is all the movies are going to hurt themselves (at least what they could have potentially done had they all not come out at same time). I still think it will be a great weekend overall, but some of these movies will struggle more than expected and not necessarily a fault of the quality of the movie (but someone like you will point to that being the reason).

Personally I enjoyed TLJ. My wife thought it was better than the force awakens. Personal opinions don't say much, but that is definitely where I stand. I also agree with what many said, with this movie I believe will grow on me a lot. I watched the movie expecting answers, which took away from it some, and I came to realize shortly into it, that most of the answers they would wait till the last of the trilogy for.

 

[fractal]

You can make numbers say whatever you want, and that's what your doing to try to prove your point. Unfortunately for you, you are not correct. As they said, The Force Awakens was lightning in a bottle, just like Avatar. There will be people like you that claim the second movie (assuming it comes out) is horrible when it can't reach the numbers of the first. Of course it won't. TLJ had a lower drop on the Monday and Tuesday then Avengers, and the same drop as Jurassic World. That means of the 4 movies that made over 200 million opening weekends, The Force Awakens had the best decline (no surprise there, supporting the "lightning in a bottle" notion), Avengers had the worse, and Jurassic World & TLJ were in the middle, making them what you should expect for a drop after such a large opening. The Monday and Tuesday before Christmas is not a big adult movie day in the movie business. It's quite the contrary in fact. And with a huge number of new movies coming out this week (5 large, several small, and many award hopefuls expanding), my opinion is all the movies are going to hurt themselves (at least what they could have potentially done had they all not come out at same time). I still think it will be a great weekend overall, but some of these movies will struggle more than expected and not necessarily a fault of the quality of the movie (but someone like you will point to that being the reason).

Personally I enjoyed TLJ. My wife thought it was better than the force awakens. Personal opinions don't say much, but that is definitely where I stand. I also agree with what many said, with this movie I believe will grow on me a lot. I watched the movie expecting answers, which took away from it some, and I came to realize shortly into it, that most of the answers they would wait till the last of the trilogy for.

Sorry, I was quoting Roger Friedman, who is generally recognized as a movie industry expert, next time I'll ask you.

WEDS UPDATE: “Last Jedi” Tuesday was $20.3 million vs. $37 mil for “Force Awakens” on its first Tuesday. That’s around 42% off. $17 million is a big difference. Monday and Tuesday are big days for adults going to the movies, so this development is a little surprising. Almost every other film increased from Monday to Tuesday by quite a lot. Only “Last Jedi” declined, by 6%. Again, Monday and Tuesday are days when adults come out and sample “smart” movies. For some reason, their interest in “Star Wars” less than was imagined.

http://www.showbiz411.com/2017/12/1...eceipts-are-half-as-much-as-the-force-awakens