Star Wars Episode IX: The Rise of Skywalker Reactions: SPOILERS

Professortango1

Well-Known Member
Correct...the force was an extra sensory power passed along biological lines since 15 minutes into Star Wars in 1977...

Really? I could have sword Obi Wan said the Force is present in ALL LIVING THINGS. Oops.

Not all Force Users are the decedents of Skywalker. Mace Windu, Yoda, Ashoka Tano, Qui-Gon Jinn, Obi Wan Kenobi, Ki Adi-Mundi, etc. These were individuals who learned to tap into The Force and didn't need to be relatives of Anakin. Heck, its clear in Episode 4 that Darth Vader isn't a relative of Luke. This was retconned by Lucas in Empire.
 

Tony Perkis

Well-Known Member
No...we’re hung up on the notion that fantasy adventures have to “advance society” and not just provide diversion/escape.

Then just outright admit it: you want fluff. You want candy.

The original Star Wars did just that in a more turbulent time from a political and social perspective ...especially in the United States

Well, no. Not really.

The original Star Wars film was exactly as you described: a fast paced, exciting film that follows familiar tropes, such as the Hero’s Journey, the Damsel in Distress, and the big bad villain.

The Empire Strikes Back counters directly against this.

That film shifted Princess Leia from the damsel to an assured leader with her own set of unique flaws. It tore down Luke as the infallible hero to measure his own self doubts and ability to be what he wants or needs to be. It gives, who was otherwise an unmotivated bad guy, a motivation that you can understand, while not empathizing with it.

Believe it or not, for 1980, a lot of these are examples of advancing society, and it’s admirable that the vessel they offer unique and new perspectives that challenged our preconceived notions was a sequel to a popular space opera.
 

Tony Perkis

Well-Known Member
"What’s striking about so many of this year’s men-in-trouble movies is how women don’t factor into the stories or solutions. This marginalization isn’t new. But it is arresting given how very loudly and insistently women have been broadcasting their presence, demands, grievances, traumas, desires and plans for the future. The feminist resurgence of the 2000s that has affected every sphere of American life, both in public office and in the streets, has seeped into the movie industry, long a citadel of male power. That power has responded with apologies, promises to do better and some directing jobs for women. It also keeps making movies about how hard it is to be a man.

Feminism had an impact on Hollywood, whatever the industry’s reluctance. But it’s no surprise that an industry long dominated by men has resisted sharing power with women. In the decades since Haskell sent out her warning, the industry has rationalized, and normalized, its discrimination with every possible excuse: the market, fan demand, creative “vision.” It invested in male-driven blockbusters (from “Jaws” to “Avengers”), elevated boy geniuses and hired male hacks over qualified women. It still does. Some male filmmakers — themselves liberated, perhaps by feminist mothers and partners — make stories with gentle, sensitive men who are already good dads and thoughtful spouses, and who can share, care and cry. "


I think I understand what a feminist is. Thanks.

I don’t see anything in those 2 paragraphs that should be triggering you so much.

I’ll bite: what do you think, on a general level, feminism is?

Any answer that relates to man-hating women is incorrect.
 

Professortango1

Well-Known Member
"What’s striking about so many of this year’s men-in-trouble movies is how women don’t factor into the stories or solutions. This marginalization isn’t new. But it is arresting given how very loudly and insistently women have been broadcasting their presence, demands, grievances, traumas, desires and plans for the future. The feminist resurgence of the 2000s that has affected every sphere of American life, both in public office and in the streets, has seeped into the movie industry, long a citadel of male power. That power has responded with apologies, promises to do better and some directing jobs for women. It also keeps making movies about how hard it is to be a man.

Feminism had an impact on Hollywood, whatever the industry’s reluctance. But it’s no surprise that an industry long dominated by men has resisted sharing power with women. In the decades since Haskell sent out her warning, the industry has rationalized, and normalized, its discrimination with every possible excuse: the market, fan demand, creative “vision.” It invested in male-driven blockbusters (from “Jaws” to “Avengers”), elevated boy geniuses and hired male hacks over qualified women. It still does. Some male filmmakers — themselves liberated, perhaps by feminist mothers and partners — make stories with gentle, sensitive men who are already good dads and thoughtful spouses, and who can share, care and cry. "

What he's saying isn't untrue. I don't understand how pointing out an article he wrote on something else makes his other article and viewpoint invalid?
 

LSLS

Well-Known Member
Really? I could have sword Obi Wan said the Force is present in ALL LIVING THINGS. Oops.

Not all Force Users are the decedents of Skywalker. Mace Windu, Yoda, Ashoka Tano, Qui-Gon Jinn, Obi Wan Kenobi, Ki Adi-Mundi, etc. These were individuals who learned to tap into The Force and didn't need to be relatives of Anakin. Heck, its clear in Episode 4 that Darth Vader isn't a relative of Luke. This was retconned by Lucas in Empire.

So why give Johnson credit for showing that the Force is bigger than one bloodline then?
 

Tony Perkis

Well-Known Member
So why give Johnson credit for showing that the Force is bigger than one bloodline then?
Because the series was getting smaller with TFA. Everyone was related, Rey must be a Skywalker, one family basically causing hell for the whole damn galaxy and screwing it up for everyone. That’s where, between ROTJ and TFA, expectations had been set. They needed to be unset.

And then TROS doubles down on the stupid “everyone is related” mindset.
 

"El Gran Magnifico"

Mr Flibble is Very Cross.
What he's saying isn't untrue. I don't understand how pointing out an article he wrote on something else makes his other article and viewpoint invalid?

Wasn't his article. Again there is a disconnect. Over time, there have been many strong women characters in movies. The issue we have here with the "new" generation is that they can't conceive that a woman can be strong without knocking down their male counterpart (s) to make them look incompetent and inferior. This is the "new" Hollywood mindset.

And that is exactly how Rian Johnson developed The Last Jedi. Hux was a clown, Kylo Ren became sensitive, Poe was a hot-head, Fin lacked character, and Luke became a coward and a recluse. The only strong male character left was Snoke - and they killed him. All this was done so Johnson could elevate Rey, Holdo, and Rose Tico to the role of "We're better than them".

So tell me what were Holdo's faults? Rose Tico's? How about Rey?
 

Professortango1

Well-Known Member
So why give Johnson credit for showing that the Force is bigger than one bloodline then?

Because the saga had become far too focused on Anakin/Luke. With Solo as a descendant of Skywalker/Solo; making Rey a descendant of Skywalker or Kenobi or :rolleyes: Palpatine makes it just seem like Disney's Descendants. The children of people we like. JJ created an unneeded "mystery box" with Rey's past and Johnson played against it to help move the main character somewhere different. She was clearly hoping, like the fans, that she was someone tied into this lineage. When Kylo told her otherwise, it caused a crisis of faith for her, as that means she really was nothing and abandoned. She could join Kylo and become someone or she could follow the teachings and ways of the Jedi, even though its star player no longer believed in it. That is a great crossroads to set up. Jump on a dying ship that even the captain doesn't believe will or should float again or join the opposition and find your place.
 

Professortango1

Well-Known Member
Wasn't his article. Again there is a disconnect. Over time, there have been many strong women characters in movies. The issue we have here with the "new" generation is that they can't conceive that a woman can be strong without knocking down their male counterpart (s) to make them look incompetent and inferior. This is the "new" Hollywood mindset.

And that is exactly how Rian Johnson developed The Last Jedi. Hux was a clown, Kylo Ren became sensitive, Poe was a hot-head, Fin lacked character, and Luke became a coward and a recluse. The only strong male character left was Snoke - and they killed him. All this was done so Johnson could elevate Rey, Holdo, and Rose Tico to the role of "We're better than them".

So tell me what were Holdo's faults? Rose Tico's? How about Rey?

How can you say Ren wasn't strong? He had gone from throwing fits and cosplaying to taking control of his own destiny and setting his own path. And Luke was a strong character. He had been beaten down by time, fear, and regret, but it was clear why he made his decisions and how he re-discovered his faith and saved the Resistance while inspiring new Jedi's around the galaxy.
 

"El Gran Magnifico"

Mr Flibble is Very Cross.
How can you say Ren wasn't strong? He had gone from throwing fits and cosplaying to taking control of his own destiny and setting his own path. And Luke was a strong character. He had been beaten down by time, fear, and regret, but it was clear why he made his decisions and how he re-discovered his faith and saved the Resistance while inspiring new Jedi's around the galaxy.

We must have watched a different movie.

And you know what they say. "The proof is in the pudding". The fact that every movie released since TLJ has under performed (not including the ones that got cancelled because of Rian's "masterpiece") - should tell you something. But you have to be open minded enough to accept it.
 

Sirwalterraleigh

Premium Member
Why are you continuously posting in a thread created to discuss a movie you haven’t seen?

This thread needs some moderation.

People who are still consumed by their dislike of TLJ, to the point where they complain about it all day long, day after day, need help.
First, it’s a discussion board

Second, the thread became about Disney’s handling of Star Wars...which is shocking to NO ONE.

Third, what a nice fan club you’re collected on your posts

Fourth, did you read the comment...you managed to take out of context...again, not shocking. Did you read why I hadn’t seen it? Temporary amnesia?
 

Sirwalterraleigh

Premium Member
Really? I could have sword Obi Wan said the Force is present in ALL LIVING THINGS. Oops.

Not all Force Users are the decedents of Skywalker. Mace Windu, Yoda, Ashoka Tano, Qui-Gon Jinn, Obi Wan Kenobi, Ki Adi-Mundi, etc. These were individuals who learned to tap into The Force and didn't need to be relatives of Anakin. Heck, its clear in Episode 4 that Darth Vader isn't a relative of Luke. This was retconned by Lucas in Empire.
But who can use it? I think old obi was clear on who and what the Jedi were...

And even if George “retconned” it in empire...nobody sat around debating it like we are right now...somehow the train derailed long after
 

Sirwalterraleigh

Premium Member
This is the primary point that fans of TLJ have been trying to across for days now: there isn’t, or shouldn’t be, an exact definition of what Star Wars is.

We don’t want there to be a template/blueprint of what you can and cannot do. We don’t want the same familiar tropes and structures across each film. We don’t want a film that most people like; we want a film that people can love, but which also can divide audiences, because then you know that the filmmakers took thematic and character risks.

When you look at the 9 film saga, there are really only 2 films that veered away from the standard series tropes: The Empire Strikes Back, and The Last Jedi. And lo and behold, those are two with the most heightened audience reactions.

They may work, they may not. But we can appreciate and admire the ambition.

When I’m critiquing a film or a film series, I’m not doing it from the lenses of the corporate entity; I’m doing so from the vantage point of a fan of film, and well as the series, so Disney making a film that could alienate certain segments of is not part of any equation to me.
Well you ran with that.

My point...since Disney acquired it and long before...is that Star Wars is different. It is a one of a kind franchise...not one that fits the generalized template of blockbusters it created long ago.

It could never be treated in such a manner it has and not get extreme fan backlash.

Who cares? The accountants do...lots of money is lost on divisive Star Wars...

Hence the retconning and Iger mandating “changes”...both big and small.

Stay tuned
It’s difficult to take such absurd irrationalities like this seriously.
Tongue in cheek when you asked for it..:I couldn’t resist. Forgive me, oh defender of disgraced rian johnson?
Don’t try to convince him his opinion on a given movie isn’t the only valid one. He just doesn’t get it.
RIF...there has been a war raging between the two (not me) for pages and pages and Rambo certainly is stoking it as much as the adversary
 

LSLS

Well-Known Member
Because the saga had become far too focused on Anakin/Luke. With Solo as a descendant of Skywalker/Solo; making Rey a descendant of Skywalker or Kenobi or :rolleyes: Palpatine makes it just seem like Disney's Descendants. The children of people we like. JJ created an unneeded "mystery box" with Rey's past and Johnson played against it to help move the main character somewhere different. She was clearly hoping, like the fans, that she was someone tied into this lineage. When Kylo told her otherwise, it caused a crisis of faith for her, as that means she really was nothing and abandoned. She could join Kylo and become someone or she could follow the teachings and ways of the Jedi, even though its star player no longer believed in it. That is a great crossroads to set up. Jump on a dying ship that even the captain doesn't believe will or should float again or join the opposition and find your place.

Ok, just curious how you combined those two thoughts. Personally I could be fine with it going either way. Just really shows how terrible the leadership/management really was that the two directors had such completely opposite views of how everything should go. Either probably could have worked fine if there was continuity.

I'm not quite so movie savant as a lot here, but I definitely side on the side of TLJ not being great. And I say that in the aspect that I don't care about a lot of what you guys discuss, I care about being entertained. I didn't have any sort of a freak out about what became of Luke/Rey's power/her backstory/etc. Taking out the parts I thought were ridiculous, I was just not entertained throughout a large portion of that movie. You can say all you want about how exciting it was that the whole direction of the franchise could change based on decisions here, but the bottom line for me is it just wasn't executed that well. And the fact there is SUCH a divide between the JJ fans/apathetic and the RJ fans is just more proof of how horribly botched this whole trilogy was. Honestly it felt like the whole thing became a giant ego battle between directors. RJ had his own vision and he could care less what JJ had done in TFA (hence he wrote it before TFA was done), and JJ was mad RJ ignored a bunch of his story lines in TLJ so he wanted to ruin a bunch of what he tried to set up.
 

Sirwalterraleigh

Premium Member
Ok, just curious how you combined those two thoughts. Personally I could be fine with it going either way. Just really shows how terrible the leadership/management really was that the two directors had such completely opposite views of how everything should go. Either probably could have worked fine if there was continuity.

I'm not quite so movie savant as a lot here, but I definitely side on the side of TLJ not being great. And I say that in the aspect that I don't care about a lot of what you guys discuss, I care about being entertained. I didn't have any sort of a freak out about what became of Luke/Rey's power/her backstory/etc. Taking out the parts I thought were ridiculous, I was just not entertained throughout a large portion of that movie. You can say all you want about how exciting it was that the whole direction of the franchise could change based on decisions here, but the bottom line for me is it just wasn't executed that well. And the fact there is SUCH a divide between the JJ fans/apathetic and the RJ fans is just more proof of how horribly botched this whole trilogy was. Honestly it felt like the whole thing became a giant ego battle between directors. RJ had his own vision and he could care less what JJ had done in TFA (hence he wrote it before TFA was done), and JJ was mad RJ ignored a bunch of his story lines in TLJ so he wanted to ruin a bunch of what he tried to set up.
There is a lot of consensus here with you...and much more will be coming. For two years or more it has grown.

Disney dun screwed up...at the end of the day.

(I’ll now await the chitari to descend through the portal and attack me at ground zero...for violating eternal faith in the infallible Walt Disney Company)
 

Professortango1

Well-Known Member
We must have watched a different movie.

And you know what they say. "The proof is in the pudding". The fact that every movie released since TLJ has under performed (not including the ones that got cancelled because of Rian's "masterpiece") - should tell you something. But you have to be open minded enough to accept it.

Correlation is not causality. Solo under performed for a number of reasons we already stated. Meanwhile, Mandolorian is the most in demand show on. TLJ was critically applauded. If you don't think its a good movie, that's your opinion. However, it is not the consensus of people who know film.

And seeing that you can't even see the film for what is presents to you; you probably did see a different movie. You watched it through bitter eyes looking to find fault and not see the plot elements which you keep admitting you missed.
 

Sirwalterraleigh

Premium Member
Correlation is not causality. Solo under performed for a number of reasons we already stated. Meanwhile, Mandolorian is the most in demand show on. TLJ was critically applauded. If you don't think its a good movie, that's your opinion. However, it is not the consensus of people who know film.

And seeing that you can't even see the film for what is presents to you; you probably did see a different movie. You watched it through bitter eyes looking to find fault and not see the plot elements which you keep admitting you missed.
The main reason Disney pointed to for solo’s failure was dead wrong...

Because their own brands/franchises are direct proof against it.

The reichstag Fire was more believable
 

Professortango1

Well-Known Member
But who can use it? I think old obi was clear on who and what the Jedi were...

And even if George “retconned” it in empire...nobody sat around debating it like we are right now...somehow the train derailed long after

The Jedi Knights were those trained to use the Force to protect the Galaxy. That's not genetic either. That's like saying only Medieval Knights used swords. Clearly, other people use swords and for different purposes. The Knights might have had the best training, but they were only one particular mindset.

The Force is present in all living things. Force sensitive individuals can tap into that Force. A group formed a religion around the Force and studied its powers, calling themselves the Jedi. Another religious group, calling themselves the Sith, believed the Force should have other applications and purposes. People like Rey and Luke are Force Sensitive individuals who are trying to find what path they are on. Ren, turned his back on both the Jedi and Sith schools of thought and was determined to be independent of them both.
 

Tony Perkis

Well-Known Member
Wasn't his article.
That’s a cop out.

Why post two paragraphs in his article and then say you weren’t responding to the article?

Again there is a disconnect. Over time, there have been many strong women characters in movies. The issue we have here with the "new" generation is that they can't conceive that a woman can be strong without knocking down their male counterpart (s) to make them look incompetent and inferior. This is the "new" Hollywood mindset.

While there are examples of this in popular entertainment, it is not the new Hollywood. This is fear of losing power

And that is exactly how Rian Johnson developed The Last Jedi. Hux was a clown,

Hux was rendered a useful tool from his introduction. He was no different than any other General in any other Star Wars film. Generals are expendable to the Empire/First Order.

Kylo Ren became sensitive,

Kylo Ren became complex. Johnson introduced the ideas of self-doubt to the character, not being burdened by the past and what he should do, but instead forging his own path, even if it challenges his instincts.

Became sensitive just reads like you don’t like how a man was challenged.

Poe was a hot-head,

What’s the issue? Abrams established him as guns-a-blazin’ in TFA, not a tactical strategist. When placed in a leadership role in TLJ, it’s natural that his attack mindset would largely conflict with the Resistance’s long-term goals.

Fin lacked character,

The biggest missed opportunity in the series. Other than being a black, former Stormtrooper, he wasn’t given any meaningful character traits. The series could have dove much deeper into the First Order’s recruiting methods, and let Finn be at the center of their injustices, but nope.

and Luke became a coward and a recluse.

Which is perfectly in character with what was established in TFA. He was Kylo Ren’s master, and due to his own mistakes and miscalculations, inadvertently created the most dangerous person in the galaxy. Him hiding in fear to causing more damage was a logical story beat. He doubted himself, his abilities, and his judgements. His arc over the course of the film, having to learn from his failures, sets up the climax nicely.

It‘s clear you just wanted Last Action Hero Luke. That’s boring.

The only strong male character left was Snoke - and they killed him.

This is incredibly telling about where your head is. We know nothing about Snoke - whether he’s a puppet, a true master, or just an obstacle. We doesn’t have many, if any, true character traits. You only identify him as a strong male character because he has the perception of power.

Wow.

All this was done so Johnson could elevate Rey, Holdo, and Rose Tico to the role of "We're better than them".

Those characters were used to give additional characters meaningful arcs, not to tear them down. Male characters who face no adversity, any character in fact, are boring. Holdo ensures that Poe didn’t stay as just a charismatic ace, but actually had to evolve. Rose caught Finn in his second attempt to deflect from his party, and was used to further the notion of loyalty and family, even if surrogate, when times are both good and bad.

So tell me what were Holdo's faults? Rose Tico's? How about Rey?
Holdo was more a plot device than a character. She wasn’t given a meaningful character arc herself, and not all characters need one.

Rose is too idealistic in her virtues and sees things in black and white; valuable for when Finn needs to learn about his virtues, but naive when judging society in general (learning how merchants sold to both the FO and the Resistance).

Rey‘s biggest fear is her place in the galaxy. Was she meant to follow in the steps of Luke Skywalker? Darth Vader? Nobody in particular? Is there a path for her? Believe it nor not, faults can be found, not just in actions, but in character motivations and their mentality about who they are and what they should do.
 
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