Star Wars Ep. 9 Thread

Joesixtoe

Well-Known Member
Just to add, I agree with everything Rian says there. A easily palatable movie can be good. But for the most part, great movies are divisive. It's hard to be great if you aren't challenging your audience in some way.
Who is Rey? No body.. Will we see Luke fight with a light saber? No... is Snoke Plagueis? No just some Rich dark force user guy... Kylo is to much like Vader so I'm taking his mask off.... I feel like Rian just took all our theories to legitimate questions left over by JJ, and just trolled us. I don't see how that's cool and artistic? TLJ feels like a cruel joke played on star wars fans.. not the average movie goer, but to the fans. I don't want to talk bad about Rian, cause the internet these days breed hatred, so I'm going to say that I think Rian ment well, but it just came off really poorly.. kinda like telling a good joke, but sometimes it just comes off real bad.
 

Sirwalterraleigh

Premium Member
Who is Rey? No body.. Will we see Luke fight with a light saber? No... is Snoke Plagueis? No just some Rich dark force user guy... Kylo is to much like Vader so I'm taking his mask off.... I feel like Rian just took all our theories to legitimate questions left over by JJ, and just trolled us. I don't see how that's cool and artistic? TLJ feels like a cruel joke played on star wars fans.. not the average movie goer, but to the fans. I don't want to talk bad about Rian, cause the internet these days breed hatred, so I'm going to say that I think Rian ment well, but it just came off really poorly.. kinda like telling a good joke, but sometimes it just comes off real bad.

It’s just a bad movie...and rian johnson is a
Bad creative writer/director

And he will be known as that forever. No need to debate it...perception is reality.

Maybe he and Kathy Kennedy can make more bad ideas together? Hopefully for another studio...
 

Tick Tock

Well-Known Member
We really need a feature on this site to just mute any posts that have the keywords VIII, Rian, or TLJ in them.
But if someone named Rian VIII ever became the CEO of Disney, and The Liberian Journal was the only media outlet reporting on it... we'd have quite the conundrum on our hands when it came to discussing such events here on the forums.
 
Last edited:

Gomer

Well-Known Member
Who is Rey? No body.. Will we see Luke fight with a light saber? No... is Snoke Plagueis? No just some Rich dark force user guy... Kylo is to much like Vader so I'm taking his mask off.... I feel like Rian just took all our theories to legitimate questions left over by JJ, and just trolled us. I don't see how that's cool and artistic? TLJ feels like a cruel joke played on star wars fans.. not the average movie goer, but to the fans. I don't want to talk bad about Rian, cause the internet these days breed hatred, so I'm going to say that I think Rian ment well, but it just came off really poorly.. kinda like telling a good joke, but sometimes it just comes off real bad.
Not all Star Wars fans care about those questions or thought the answers were inadequate. I was rooting for Rey to not be a Skywalker. I preferred seeing Luke in a more Yoda like pacifist vibe rather than a warrior. And thank god Snoke wasn't Plagueis. That would have been a worst possible outcome for me.

This is what I mean when I say, if some SW fans had gotten the exact answers they wanted it would have just ed off the other half of fandom.

Johnson gave us the story he wanted to tell and one that many SW fans wanted to hear. It's unfortunate for those who didn't. But to call it a cruel joke played on all SW fans assumes that Rian was trying to troll with this movie, and that SW fans are united in their expectations. Which couldn't be farther from the truth.
 

Mike S

Well-Known Member
Not all Star Wars fans care about those questions or thought the answers were inadequate. I was rooting for Rey to not be a Skywalker. I preferred seeing Luke in a more Yoda like pacifist vibe rather than a warrior. And thank god Snoke wasn't Plagueis. That would have been a worst possible outcome for me.

This is what I mean when I say, if some SW fans had gotten the exact answers they wanted it would have just ****ed off the other half of fandom.

Johnson gave us the story he wanted to tell and one that many SW fans wanted to hear. It's unfortunate for those who didn't. But to call it a cruel joke played on all SW fans assumes that Rian was trying to troll with this movie, and that SW fans are united in their expectations. Which couldn't be farther from the truth.
I think they failed at even making him like Yoda. Yoda was a much better teacher. Luke I think should’ve been a bit of both a warrior and teacher. Episode VII we see Luke as a Jedi Master a bit until Han dies and he realizes he needs to train the next generation then we get the teacher and appropriate sacrifice in VIII.
 

Gomer

Well-Known Member
I think they failed at even making him like Yoda. Yoda was a much better teacher. Luke I think should’ve been a bit of both a warrior and teacher. Episode VII we see Luke as a Jedi Master a bit until Han dies and he realizes he needs to train the next generation then we get the teacher and appropriate sacrifice in VIII.
I don't have a problem with him being a worse teacher than yoda either. But again, this is all prefaced on what we've discussed before. I didn't put Luke up on much of a pedestal. He was a mediocre, half trained Jedi who due to his own personal ties with Vader and his bravery was able to save the galaxy. The OT was the story of an everyman overcoming his situation and through sheer will and dedication to the cause managing to take down a greater foe, not by fighting but by appealing to his foe's human nature.

The ST shows what happens when that same man is faced with the devestating failure that he wasn't fully trained to accept. But again, due to his nature, he (eventually) overcomes that loss and again saves the day without drawing blood.

Yoda is there as the ideal of the Jedi. I think it would likely be a mistake to have a character surpass him in any way. Luke's failings as a teacher only prove just how wise and powerful Yoda was.
 

Sirwalterraleigh

Premium Member
I don't have a problem with him being a worse teacher than yoda either. But again, this is all prefaced on what we've discussed before. I didn't put Luke up on much of a pedestal. He was a mediocre, half trained Jedi who due to his own personal ties with Vader and his bravery was able to save the galaxy. The OT was the story of an everyman overcoming his situation and through sheer will and dedication to the cause managing to take down a greater foe, not by fighting but by appealing to his foe's human nature.

The ST shows what happens when that same man is faced with the devestating failure that he wasn't fully trained to accept. But again, due to his nature, he (eventually) overcomes that loss and again saves the day without drawing blood.

Yoda is there as the ideal of the Jedi. I think it would likely be a mistake to have a character surpass him in any way. Luke's failings as a teacher only prove just how wise and powerful Yoda was.

You gotta pour me some of that...

Hamill is the key figure of the entire story...much wiser men than you or I have said that for decades - notably Irvin Kirshner and Gary Kurtz

The ST...if that’s what we are calling it...is a disjointed mess. Useless “nuance” layered with unnecessary, dead end tropes.

Can I borrow your Blu-ray? Seriously?

And the cackling yoda was a mistake too...as that was a ruse and Oz’s performance after in Empire was what made “Jedi” a thing that was identifiable and endured.

“Luminous beings are we...not this crude matter”

Is a far cry from

“Page turners, they were? Mehehehehe”
 

Gomer

Well-Known Member
You gotta pour me some of that...

Hamill is the key figure of the entire story...much wiser men than you or I have said that for decades - notably Irvin Kirshner and Gary Kurtz

The ST...if that’s what we are calling it...is a disjointed mess. Useless “nuance” layered with unnecessary, dead end tropes.

Can I borrow your Blu-ray? Seriously?

And the cackling yoda was a mistake too...as that was a ruse and Oz’s performance after in Empire was what made “Jedi” a thing that was identifiable and endured.

“Luminous beings are we...not this crude matter”

Is a far cry from

“Page turners, they were? Mehehehehe”
Who said he wasn't the key figure in the story? Doesn't mean he wasn't flawed. Luke's strengths were his courage, his good nature, and his will to help make the galaxy a better place in spite of stacked odds against him. He was never a PT-esque jedi super hero. The best part of Luke from the OT was that he was not some perfect warrior.

He's like Frodo from LotR. He doesn't come out on top because he has the most power and skill, but because he has the most heart.

As for Yoda, I'd say that his willingness to commit to that ruse in ESB shows that he does have a sense of humor;. I don't see how the cackle is out of character.
 

Mike S

Well-Known Member
Who said he wasn't the key figure in the story? Doesn't mean he wasn't flawed. Luke's strengths were his courage, his good nature, and his will to help make the galaxy a better place in spite of stacked odds against him. He was never a PT-esque jedi super hero. The best part of Luke from the OT was that he was not some perfect warrior.

He's like Frodo from LotR. He doesn't come out on top because he has the most power and skill, but because he has the most heart.

As for Yoda, I'd say that his willingness to commit to that ruse in ESB shows that he does have a sense of humor;. I don't see how the cackle is out of character.
I think the crux of all this is that the reasoning given for his downfall doesn’t make sense to most people including myself. He had endless hope for his father who actually committed terrible acts but was ready to kill his nephew before he actually did anything. Then he goes into hiding to just die alone (never mind the fact it’s inconsistent with TFA where he left behind a map to find him) because of one simple failure. Luke was the shining example of an eternal optimist. For many it was hard to believe one simple failure that mostly happens off screen lead to such a deep decline. The Luke I knew wouldn’t give up like he did on his sister and his best friend and especially not his own nephew.

For Luke Skywalker to believably fall so low for me would require similar grief as to what Thor went through from Ragnarok to Endgame. He would’ve had to lose Leia and Han and his students. To truly have nothing left.
 
Last edited:

Gomer

Well-Known Member
I think the crux of all this is that the reasoning given for his downfall doesn’t make sense to most people including myself. He had endless hope for his father who actually committed terrible acts but was ready to kill his nephew before he actually did anything. Then he goes into hiding to just die alone (never mind the fact it’s inconsistent with TFA where he left behind a map to find him) because of one simple failure. Luke was the shining example of an eternal optimist. For many it was hard to believe one simple failure that mostly happens off screen lead to such a deep decline. The Luke I knew wouldn’t give up like he did on his sister and his best friend and especially not his own nephew.
Well he didn't leave that map to find him. It was a map to the first Jedi temple that Lor San Tekka had acquired. Han knew that's what he was looking for, so the assumption was Luke would be there.

I've had this debate a number of times, and impossible to really be correct or incorrect because it's based on your personal belief of what the impacts of that event would have been.

Yes, Luke was an optimist in the early days. But I don't see it as a simple failure. He thought he could build a new Jedi order based on his limited training. He took his nephew under his wing and managed to lose him to the dark side. I'm not sure if anyone in this conversation has kids. But imagine holding yourself directly responsible for the loss of your sisters only child. Imagine saying you'd protect them, deeming yourself wise and powerful enough to guide them, but then due to your own weakness you actually drive them away.

Guilt and shame are powerful motivators. Luke didn't just blame himself for Ben's turn, but also then saw himself as a risk to any other powerful force users who might seek him out. If he couldn't guide his own blood, how could he be trusted to guide anyone else.

I feel like people overlook that all his optimism in the OT was external. He was putting faith in others. Faith in his father, his freinds, his teachers. But not really in himself. He seemed to always have that bit of doubt. Whether it was his inability to find a new life on Tattoine. His difficulty in training with Yoda. And with his fear to confront Vader in Jedi. In Empire and Jedi one of his primary motivations is his fear that he is the cause of danger for others. It causes him to abandon his training and confront Vader too early. It causes him to turn himself in on Endor. He is constantly worried that he will somehow be the downfall of his freinds and family.

And in training Ben, that finally happens. No he wasn't responsible for his turn. But that momentary act of despair that caused him to take out his saber, caused a ripple effect that destroyed thousands if not millions of lives. That's a pretty big weight for someone whose main fear has always been inadvertently causing harm to others. And he thought he had the key to stopping that from ever happening again in locking himself away.
 

Mike S

Well-Known Member
Well he didn't leave that map to find him. It was a map to the first Jedi temple that Lor San Tekka had acquired. Han knew that's what he was looking for, so the assumption was Luke would be there.

I've had this debate a number of times, and impossible to really be correct or incorrect because it's based on your personal belief of what the impacts of that event would have been.

Yes, Luke was an optimist in the early days. But I don't see it as a simple failure. He thought he could build a new Jedi order based on his limited training. He took his nephew under his wing and managed to lose him to the dark side. I'm not sure if anyone in this conversation has kids. But imagine holding yourself directly responsible for the loss of your sisters only child. Imagine saying you'd protect them, deeming yourself wise and powerful enough to guide them, but then due to your own weakness you actually drive them away.

Guilt and shame are powerful motivators. Luke didn't just blame himself for Ben's turn, but also then saw himself as a risk to any other powerful force users who might seek him out. If he couldn't guide his own blood, how could he be trusted to guide anyone else.

I feel like people overlook that all his optimism in the OT was external. He was putting faith in others. Faith in his father, his freinds, his teachers. But not really in himself. He seemed to always have that bit of doubt. Whether it was his inability to find a new life on Tattoine. His difficulty in training with Yoda. And with his fear to confront Vader in Jedi. In Empire and Jedi one of his primary motivations is his fear that he is the cause of danger for others. It causes him to abandon his training and confront Vader too early. It causes him to turn himself in on Endor. He is constantly worried that he will somehow be the downfall of his freinds and family.

And in training Ben, that finally happens. No he wasn't responsible for his turn. But that momentary act of despair that caused him to take out his saber, caused a ripple effect that destroyed thousands if not millions of lives. That's a pretty big weight for someone whose main fear has always been inadvertently causing harm to others. And he thought he had the key to stopping that from ever happening again in locking himself away.
Best explanation I’ve seen for this.

Having said that though I still think it happened too quickly. Something like this should’ve been eased into. Also Luke was hesitant to take in Ben. I think Leia said it was Han who pushed him to train him. It also doesn’t explain why he would so willingly abandon his friends when they would’ve needed him most. Not to fight right away but to just be there for them. He could’ve helped them stay together. If he always had faith in others he should’ve had faith in his nephew as well. That moment of weakness should’ve never happened.
 
Last edited:

Sirwalterraleigh

Premium Member
Who said he wasn't the key figure in the story? Doesn't mean he wasn't flawed. Luke's strengths were his courage, his good nature, and his will to help make the galaxy a better place in spite of stacked odds against him. He was never a PT-esque jedi super hero. The best part of Luke from the OT was that he was not some perfect warrior.

He's like Frodo from LotR. He doesn't come out on top because he has the most power and skill, but because he has the most heart.

As for Yoda, I'd say that his willingness to commit to that ruse in ESB shows that he does have a sense of humor;. I don't see how the cackle is out of character.

I don’t know how anyone can compare Luke from the OT - particularly empire and jedi - to this Rey/Kylo mess with a straight face...as in at all.

Opinions vary.

Just as Vader empire and emperor Jedi are the best baddies by a factor of 1000...nothing has scratched that surface since
 

Sirwalterraleigh

Premium Member
I’m not even gonna get into “the map”....which was a great idea until man boy decided he was gonna act like costanza in the next movie and phase out in a transporter accident 😉
 

Gomer

Well-Known Member
Best explanation I’ve seen for this.

Having said that though I still think it happened too quickly. Something like this should’ve been eased into. Also Luke was hesitant to take in Ben. I think Leia said it was Han who pushed him to train him. It also doesn’t explain why he would so willingly abandon his friends when they would’ve needed him most. Not to fight right away but to just be there for them. He could’ve helped them stay together. If he always had faith in others he should’ve had faith in his nephew as well. That moment of weakness should’ve never happened.
I don’t think whether Han pressured him into it or not would play into his level of insecurity. Luke was never the type to place blame elsewhere. He put it all on himself.

On being there for his friends, he spells that out in TLJ. He thinks he is helping by not being there. That the power of the Jedi is corruptible and therefore dangerous.

I do agree though that they could have made more effort to explain all this. The movies make the assumption that the viewers will fill in these blanks on their own, but we’ve seen now that the blanks are filed in differently by different viewers.

But it’s also hard to judge before we see IX. Seems like force ghost Luke will be playing a significant part. Still a lot of context to be added. For better or worse.
 

Mike S

Well-Known Member
I don’t think whether Han pressured him into it or not would play into his level of insecurity. Luke was never the type to place blame elsewhere. He put it all on himself.

On being there for his friends, he spells that out in TLJ. He thinks he is helping by not being there. That the power of the Jedi is corruptible and therefore dangerous.

I do agree though that they could have made more effort to explain all this. The movies make the assumption that the viewers will fill in these blanks on their own, but we’ve seen now that the blanks are filed in differently by different viewers.

But it’s also hard to judge before we see IX. Seems like force ghost Luke will be playing a significant part. Still a lot of context to be added. For better or worse.
I’m very curious to see if they try to explain more. I feel they need to. The biggest thing is him ever having a thought to kill Ben. That’s definitely not the Luke we know especially for those who believe he didn’t like solving conflicts by fighting.
 

Gomer

Well-Known Member
I’m very curious to see if they try to explain more. I feel they need to. The biggest thing is him ever having a thought to kill Ben. That’s definitely not the Luke we know especially for those who believe he didn’t like solving conflicts by fighting.
I think they will attempt to explain a lot. But who knows.

As far as killing Ben goes. There’s a difference between gut reaction and rational thought. Much like he stopped himself from killing Vader, with Ben he experienced an emotional reaction and then immediately suppressed it. It’s a very human moment and one of my favorite parts of the movie.

He was never really “thinking” about killing Ben because in that moment he wasn’t thinking at all. He saw another Vader rising and his instinct was to stop that darkness before it could do any damage to the world. But his rational mind was more caring.

It’s just unfortunate that Ben happened to see that one tiny weak moment. The kind we all have but usually remain a secret personal shame. But that shame was exposed to a vulnerable young man whose immaturity didn’t allow him to question it.

It’s basically every parents greatest fear played out in a galactic scale. What if our kids find out we are just as lost and prone to mistakes as them. And what happens when they don’t understNd that human frailty? And in this case the worst case scenario plays out with dire consequences.
 

Mike S

Well-Known Member
I think they will attempt to explain a lot. But who knows.

As far as killing Ben goes. There’s a difference between gut reaction and rational thought. Much like he stopped himself from killing Vader, with Ben he experienced an emotional reaction and then immediately suppressed it. It’s a very human moment and one of my favorite parts of the movie.

He was never really “thinking” about killing Ben because in that moment he wasn’t thinking at all. He saw another Vader rising and his instinct was to stop that darkness before it could do any damage to the world. But his rational mind was more caring.

It’s just unfortunate that Ben happened to see that one tiny weak moment. The kind we all have but usually remain a secret personal shame. But that shame was exposed to a vulnerable young man whose immaturity didn’t allow him to question it.

It’s basically every parents greatest fear played out in a galactic scale. What if our kids find out we are just as lost and prone to mistakes as them. And what happens when they don’t understNd that human frailty? And in this case the worst case scenario plays out with dire consequences.
You could argue his fight against Vader in RotJ was more defensive than offensive. Once Vader was weakened enough he stopped attacking pretty much immediately even before the Emperor tried to goad him on. In TLJ he was going after someone in their SLEEP even if only for a second. Also his experience with Vader would’ve taught him that anyone can be brought back to the light. Ben hadn’t even fully turned yet and actually still hasn’t fully turned since his conflict with a pull to the light is still an important plot point. If Luke could sense that conflict in his father he would’ve sensed it in Ben and would’ve known he could still save him.
 

Sirwalterraleigh

Premium Member
I think they will attempt to explain a lot. But who knows.

As far as killing Ben goes. There’s a difference between gut reaction and rational thought. Much like he stopped himself from killing Vader, with Ben he experienced an emotional reaction and then immediately suppressed it. It’s a very human moment and one of my favorite parts of the movie.

He was never really “thinking” about killing Ben because in that moment he wasn’t thinking at all. He saw another Vader rising and his instinct was to stop that darkness before it could do any damage to the world. But his rational mind was more caring.

It’s just unfortunate that Ben happened to see that one tiny weak moment. The kind we all have but usually remain a secret personal shame. But that shame was exposed to a vulnerable young man whose immaturity didn’t allow him to question it.

It’s basically every parents greatest fear played out in a galactic scale. What if our kids find out we are just as lost and prone to mistakes as them. And what happens when they don’t understNd that human frailty? And in this case the worst case scenario plays out with dire consequences.

They’ve got 2 hours and 15 minutes and really no story lead in...

So “explanation” really isn’t on the table.

And as much as I appreciate Adam driver...the “Ben solo” story ain’t working either.

Maybe they can do a 1995 hologram of fisher...like Tupac?

Can’t hurt to try...
 

Register on WDWMAGIC. This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.

Back
Top Bottom