Star Wars Ep. 9 Thread

[Gomer]

You could argue his fight against Vader in RotJ was more defensive than offensive. Once Vader was weakened enough he stopped. In TLJ he was going after someone in their SLEEP even if only for a second. Also his experience with Vader would’ve taught him that anyone can be brought back to the light. Ben hadn’t even fully turned yet and actually still hasn’t fully turned since his conflict with a pull to the light is still an important plot point. If Luke could sense that conflict in his father he would’ve sensed it in Ben and would’ve known he could still save him.

Luke’s fight with Vader was defensive until he mentioned Leia. Then he lost it for a good 30 seconds or so of emotional anger slashes complete with operatic background music.

That emotion that he pulled himself back from in Jedi is the same emotion he experienced with Ben. It’s not something he’s thinking about it’s something that he’s feeling and pulls himself back from. The difference is that he had the chance to pull back from it with Vader. Ben didn’t give him that chance.

 

[Anders Limpar]

Luke didn't seem so insecure in ROTJ when he told Leia he had to face Vader and her response was to run away. I really, really, really did not like the map idea. Probably to nobody's surprise, my biggest gripe with the sequel trilogy so far is the way they have handled Luke.

 

[Gomer]

You could argue his fight against Vader in RotJ was more defensive than offensive. Once Vader was weakened enough he stopped attacking pretty much immediately even before the Emperor tried to goad him on. In TLJ he was going after someone in their SLEEP even if only for a second. Also his experience with Vader would’ve taught him that anyone can be brought back to the light. Ben hadn’t even fully turned yet and actually still hasn’t fully turned since his conflict with a pull to the light is still an important plot point. If Luke could sense that conflict in his father he would’ve sensed it in Ben and would’ve known he could still save him.

Just wanted to add that this is a great conversation. I may not agree with your take but it’s nice to go back and forth without the empty snark of most of these discussions on the merits of the film.

 

[Mike S]

Luke’s fight with Vader was defensive until he mentioned Leia. Then he lost it for a good 30 seconds or so of emotional anger slashes complete with operatic background music.

That emotion that he pulled himself back from in Jedi is the same emotion he experienced with Ben. It’s not something he’s thinking about it’s something that he’s feeling and pulls himself back from. The difference is that he had the chance to pull back from it with Vader. Ben didn’t give him that chance.

I see that point but whenever I think of this I think that when Luke was searching Ben’s mind he would’ve seen he hadn’t fully turned yet and there was hope for him. That alone would’ve quelled an emotional response to go for the kill like with Vader when he saw how similar they were and how he could easily go down the same path.

Just wanted to add that this is a great conversation. I may not agree with your take but it’s nice to go back and forth without the empty snark of most of these discussions on the merits of the film.

Likewise. It’s refreshing on my end as well.

 

[Gomer]

Luke didn't seem so insecure in ROTJ when he told Leia he had to face Vader and her response was to run away.

Again though. It’s about emotional reaction vs rational decisions. He looked pretty insecure when they were on the imperial shuttle and he realized Vader knew he was there and he was putting the mission in danger.

And again when the emperor reveals his trap. The great thing about his RotJ arc is that he overcomes that insecurity and triumphs.

 

[Anders Limpar]

Again though. It’s about emotional reaction vs rational decisions. He looked pretty insecure when they were on the imperial shuttle and he realized Vader knew he was there and he was putting the mission in danger.

And again when the emperor reveals his trap. The great thing about his RotJ arc is that he overcomes that insecurity and triumphs.

Was that insecurity or concern for his friends though? Any Imperial jobroni could have blown the shuttle out of the sky and all of Luke's friends are kaput. He didn't say no Tiberius isn't happening because I could put everyone in danger, he followed through with the plan and only had the concern while they were waiting for clearance.

Luke in A New Hope is very different from Luke in ROTJ. I'd concede Luke is insecure in ANH but he goes through experiences over the next two movies and receives Jedi training so he is no longer insecure. Or certainly not insecure enough to justify going reclusive halfway across the galaxy.

From the very beginning of ROTJ, Luke has an air of confidence to him. Luke is down right arrogant when talking to Jabba and same thing when breaking everybody out. He seems to me like he is at peace with the fact that he has to confront Vader. He calls out Vader as Anakin Skywalker in the ATAT on Endor and tells him he feels the good in him. That's not stuff someone who is insecure is going to say to Jeff Vader (Eddie Izzard reference) .

He also attacks immediately after the Emperor reveals his plan. Would't the emotional response of someone who was insecure be to run away?

I just don't buy into the fact that the Luke from the OT devolves into the Luke from the sequel trilogy.

 

[Gomer]

Was that insecurity or concern for his friends though? Any Imperial jobroni could have blown the shuttle out of the sky and all of Luke's friends are kaput. He didn't say no Tiberius isn't happening because I could put everyone in danger, he followed through with the plan and only had the concern while they were waiting for clearance.

Luke in A New Hope is very different from Luke in ROTJ. I'd concede Luke is insecure in ANH but he goes through experiences over the next two movies and receives Jedi training so he is no longer insecure. Or certainly not insecure enough to justify going reclusive halfway across the galaxy.

From the very beginning of ROTJ, Luke has an air of confidence to him. Luke is down right arrogant when talking to Jabba and same thing when breaking everybody out. He seems to me like he is at peace with the fact that he has to confront Vader. He calls out Vader as Anakin Skywalker in the ATAT on Endor and tells him he feels the good in him. That's not stuff someone who is insecure is going to say to Jeff Vader (Eddie Izzard reference) .

He also attacks immediately after the Emperor reveals his plan. Would't the emotional response of someone who was insecure be to run away?

I just don't buy into the fact that the Luke from the OT devolves into the Luke from the sequel trilogy.

Well i don't think it was a devolution as I think that implies showing the human weakness he does in TLj is somehow a judgment on him. On the contrary, I think it shows his strength.

Also, i don't think running away while he's in the throne room was a realistic option. He knows attacking the emperor is exactly what Palpatine is trying to bait him into. He knows it is the path to the dark side. That attack, I see as a moment of weakness, not one of strength.

But maybe we're getting caught up to much in the word insecurity (My word I know) as it seems to be eliciting some unintended negative associations. So let me rephrase by saying that Luke is frequently motivated by fear in the OT. And his desire to help others is what helps him move past that fear. Even if sometimes it leads to an unwise decision (like in Empire).

And that is still his primary motivator in TLJ. I've seen people say Luke is acting selfishly, but I think the opposite is true. He's in seclusion as a sacrifice to protect others. Misunderstanding the lesson Yoda was trying to teach him when he told him not to leave Dagobah in ESB. But in the end, he ends up moving past that fear of putting others in danger, not because of any selfish need, but because people he cares about (Leia and Rey) are in trouble and he can save them. Even if it means sacrificing himself.

So its really a reverse of Empire. In ESB, the "correct" path was to stay on Dagobah and when he finally rushed to the rescue it led to failure. In TLJ, he thinks he is doing good by staying on Jakku, but in the end, sacrificing himself by facing his enemy and saving his friends ends up being the right choice. And he is rewarded by becoming one with the force.

 

[Mike S]

Well i don't think it was a devolution as I think that implies showing the human weakness he does in TLj is somehow a judgment on him. On the contrary, I think it shows his strength.

Also, i don't think running away while he's in the throne room was a realistic option. He knows attacking the emperor is exactly what Palpatine is trying to bait him into. He knows it is the path to the dark side. That attack, I see as a moment of weakness, not one of strength.

But maybe we're getting caught up to much in the word insecurity (My word I know) as it seems to be eliciting some unintended negative associations. So let me rephrase by saying that Luke is frequently motivated by fear in the OT. And his desire to help others is what helps him move past that fear. Even if sometimes it leads to an unwise decision (like in Empire).

And that is still his primary motivator in TLJ. I've seen people say Luke is acting selfishly, but I think the opposite is true. He's in seclusion as a sacrifice to protect others. Misunderstanding the lesson Yoda was trying to teach him when he told him not to leave Dagobah in ESB. But in the end, he ends up moving past that fear of putting others in danger, not because of any selfish need, but because people he cares about (Leia and Rey) are in trouble and he can save them. Even if it means sacrificing himself.

So its really a reverse of Empire. In ESB, the "correct" path was to stay on Dagobah and when he finally rushed to the rescue it led to failure. In TLJ, he thinks he is doing good by staying on Jakku, but in the end, sacrificing himself by facing his enemy and saving his friends ends up being the right choice. And he is rewarded by becoming one with the force.

All of this could’ve been avoided if he was actually there fighting. The people who liked the new Luke still got their Luke and the fans would’ve gotten the Luke they wanted. I was humbling along taking what the movie was dishing out because in the back of my mind I stuck to my belief we were going to get our Luke moment that was sort of set up when we were shown his submerged X Wing. When he first showed up on Crait and stepped out to face Kylo I got as giddy as I did when Thor showed up at Wakanda. Then it was revealed he wasn’t actually there, then he just died. I was just shocked, sitting there mouth agape. The days afterward I was processing the whole movie realizing how much didn’t really make sense to me when putting a lot of thought to it. Then I binged videos on the movie and realized how much more felt wrong. All because of one scene that planted the first seed of doubt while watching a movie and just taking it in without thinking that critically during my viewing.

 

[Gomer]

All of this could’ve been avoided if he was actually there fighting. The people who liked the new Luke still got their Luke and the fans would’ve gotten the Luke they wanted. I was humbling along taking what the movie was dishing out because in the back of my mind I stuck to my belief we were going to get our Luke moment that was sort of set up when we were shown his submerged X Wing. When he first showed up on Crait and stepped out to face Kylo I got as giddy as I did when Thor showed up at Wakanda. Then it was revealed he wasn’t actually there, then he just died. I was just shocked, sitting there mouth agape. The days afterward I was processing the whole movie realizing how much didn’t really make sense to me when putting a lot of thought to it. Then I binged videos on the movie and realized how much more felt wrong. All because of one scene that planted the first seed of doubt while watching a movie and just taking it in without thinking that critically during my viewing.

This is one place I guess we’ll never be able to agree. To me that was the ultimate ideal of Jedi philosophy. The fact that he isn’t there, that he’s using the force to save his friends without violence, and how that calm presence stands in opposition to the unbridled rage of Kylo is one of my favorite all time Star Wars moments.

It’s a perfect illustration of the dichotomy of the light and dark sides while still making for some thrilling action. Aggression vs pacifism. Fear vs calm. Wisdom vs power.

Had he been there I’m sure it would have made for a nice action scene and it could have been played well. I’m sure that would have made for a good movie. But i feel it would have been lacking in comparison to what we got.

 

[Stripes]

Episode 9 trailer gave me goosebumps...at the end. If they don't deliver on that hint, I'll be ticked.

The Last Jedi suffers from a contrived plot. A lot of people hate The Last Jedi due to its lack of fan service. I don't. I hate it for other reasons.

I've gone back and forth on The Force Awakens. I didn't feel much for the characters and I still don't, but plot was well-developed and the script well-executed.

I knew something was rotten in Denmark in the middle of watching The Last Jedi in IMAX. There are very few instances in the theater where my brain is on. I sit back, enjoy, and critique later. For me, this film was distractingly bad.

I have hope for Episode 9. I have far more hope for The Mandalorian. However, I've literally been hyperventilating over the videos coming out of Galaxy's Edge.

 

[Mike S]

This is one place I guess we’ll never be able to agree. To me that was the ultimate ideal of Jedi philosophy. The fact that he isn’t there, that he’s using the force to save his friends without violence, and how that calm presence stands in opposition to the unbridled rage of Kylo is one of my favorite all time Star Wars moments.

It’s a perfect illustration of the dichotomy of the light and dark sides while still making for some thrilling action. Aggression vs pacifism. Fear vs calm. Wisdom vs power.

Had he been there I’m sure it would have made for a nice action scene and it could have been played well. I’m sure that would have made for a good movie. But i feel it would have been lacking in comparison to what we got.

He could’ve been just as calm actually being there and doing the same things he was doing in the current scene. Just like Obi Wan in ANH.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Episode 9 trailer gave me goosebumps...at the end. If they don't deliver on that hint, I'll be ticked.

Palpating returning is what actually has me sort of disappointed. It feels like having another yet Death Star but I also understand why he is needed given how The Last Jedi ignored the eight other movies and suddenly made the First Order more powerful than the Empire that was somehow lead by a nobody. It just feels like being pushed into bad corner that won’t have a satisfying escape for anyone.

 

[Stripes]

Palpating returning is what actually has me sort of disappointed. It feels like having another yet Death Star but I also understand why he is needed given how The Last Jedi ignored the eight other movies and suddenly made the First Order more powerful than the Empire that was somehow lead by a nobody. It just feels like being pushed into bad corner that won’t have a satisfying escape for anyone.

True. It does feel that way, at present. If Palpatine is just shoehorned in without a compelling storyline that would be incredibly disappointing. I can only hope that won't be the case and the writers have come up with a story that doesn't feel contrived.

Episode 7 set up a great trilogy and 8 blew it all to hell. I hope 9 can be salvaged.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Luke didn't seem so insecure in ROTJ when he told Leia he had to face Vader and her response was to run away. I really, really, really did not like the map idea. Probably to nobody's surprise, my biggest gripe with the sequel trilogy so far is the way they have handled Luke.

You and a LEGIT 50% of the fanbase. The handling of the original characters has created a chasm that will be a huge problem for Disney for a long time to come. That’s why spray tan Bob is basically “washing his hands” of it till retirement.

Ford did a silly exit piece at his request, Disney misread fisher completely and misread hamill. I’m sorry to get it back to where it always Goes...but that’s what my gut is telling me. Very similar to after ATOC came out and the toddler phase of the internet buzz was “most fans still like it”. No...that was false hope/defense of George then...and the franchise lost its mystique. Disney doesn’t have that mystique to fall back on like George did and limp along.

So that’s how you get box office failures and bargain bin toys. It’s an easy to track devolution.

Guess that’s world isn’t ready for the emo struggle/“nuance” of the deep ren and Rey characters? The world wins more times than not.

Can’t wait for that Star Wars land live stream !

 

[tk924]

So the opening ceremony for GE which is based off the ST has no ST characters present?
See. Yet another example that Disney has no idea what they're doing. Trying to entice the older fans by having legacy characters present that they killed off? What do you think this says of Lando's future? And why is Ford even there? He hates SW. I'll bet they paid him a truck load of cash to be there and smile. And GL looks thrilled to be there, doesn't he? Boy, oh boy. This says a lot to me about the current state of SW.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

So the opening ceremony for GE which is based off the ST has no ST characters present?
See. Yet another example that Disney has no idea what they're doing. Trying to entice the older fans by having legacy characters present that they killed off? What do you think this says of Lando's future? And why is Ford even there? He hates SW. I'll bet they paid him a truck load of cash to be there and smile. And GL looks thrilled to be there, doesn't he? Boy, oh boy. This says a lot to me about the current state of SW.

No...like all the game of thrones characters - they’re trying to figure out who’s gonna ever hire them again?

Star Wars is not a hard beast to figure out...unless it’s in hollywood - where they look at it like a mental rubics cube

 

[Mike S]

So the opening ceremony for GE which is based off the ST has no ST characters present?
See. Yet another example that Disney has no idea what they're doing. Trying to entice the older fans by having legacy characters present that they killed off? What do you think this says of Lando's future? And why is Ford even there? He hates SW. I'll bet they paid him a truck load of cash to be there and smile. And GL looks thrilled to be there, doesn't he? Boy, oh boy. This says a lot to me about the current state of SW.

Yeah that does seem weird. They’re pushing the ST hard but don’t bring any of the actors?

 

[Stripes]

So the opening ceremony for GE which is based off the ST has no ST characters present?
See. Yet another example that Disney has no idea what they're doing. Trying to entice the older fans by having legacy characters present that they killed off? What do you think this says of Lando's future? And why is Ford even there? He hates SW. I'll bet they paid him a truck load of cash to be there and smile. And GL looks thrilled to be there, doesn't he? Boy, oh boy. This says a lot to me about the current state of SW.

With the exception of Mark Hamill every one of their "speeches" was beyond cringy. George Lucas looked like he was about to vomit. It was so bad Iger made a comment like "George is in a bit of shock right now."

 

[Gomer]

Yeah that does seem weird. They’re pushing the ST hard but don’t bring any of the actors?

Make sense to me when you think of the target demo for this event. Hard core park fans who watch these sorts of things. Same people you hear griping alot about the choice to make a new canon planet instead of familiar locations and characters.

Getting the approval nod from the legacy holders gives it a nice sheen. The people who would have been swayed by seeing Jon Boyega up there either aren't watching this or will be swayed enough considering he appears in the land itself.

 

[Gomer]

With the exception of Mark Hamill every one of their "speeches" was beyond cringy. George Lucas looked like he was about to vomit. It was so bad Iger made a comment like "George is in a bit of shock right now."

I don't think they were really there. What we were actually seeing is Disney's next cutting edge animatronic. They just haven't figured out how to replicate human enthusiasm yet. But it makes sense. They've been trying to get Iger a personality for years and haven't managed that yet either.