Star Wars Ep. 9 Thread

[Sirwalterraleigh]

This is so true. SW toy sales reflect this as well. I've been collecting some of the Vintage Collection action figures and let me say first hand that what sells is the Vintage style card backs of PT and OT figures. I can go right now to any retail store and find Reys, Holdos and even TLJ Luke figures hanging on pegs. Try to find an OT/PT figure at retail. Very hard. Almost all of my acquisitions have been online. Here's a short article that speaks to this.
They're even re-releasing vintage SW 5POA action figures on vintage card backs! Why? Because that's what the fans want. And they're buying it up!
I wish the higher ups at Disney/LFL would take notice at what the guys at Hasbro are doing, but they won't. They're going to continue down this path and blame it's unnecessary failure on the fans. You see, they have nothing to 'hook' a new generation with. Today's kids will forget and move on from the ST. I believe this. Oh, they might get a few more years out of it with Galaxy's Edge and maybe with SW on Disney+ but, to me, the candle seems awfully close to the end of it's wick.
I'll never walk away from SW because of the ST. I will always cherish the PT, Clone Wars, RO and, of course, the OT.

Agree...and to ad: I have a friend who works at LEGO and it is zero coincidence that the majority of new sets, the “20th anniversary”, and the action/preschool age sets are all OT.

They can’t sell the new stuff at all. Glued to shelves. LEGO is private so they will never admit it. But unlike Kathy Kennedy - their danish efficiency immediately pulled the plug and recomputed

 

[Gomer]

Throwing fans a bone after they gave you so much success isn’t a bad thing. They scratched your back, now scratch theirs and the cycle of success continues.

Again though, it doesn’t mean you can’t be artistic. Both can coexist. You just need the right balance. A reunion scene wouldn’t have harmed any artistry. Neither would have doing more with Luke.

I agree that they can coexist. And boy do they still throw the fans a bone. I mean we're getting Palpatine back for IX. I'm hoping they find a way to pull that off well, but I'm not overly optimistic. (No more clones please!)

My big dispute in general is that there is a demand for a reuniting of the big 3, which I understand. But in the story that they decided to tell, it makes perfect sense not to do that just due to the themes of the new movies and the isolation from the new generation.

Now there is an argument to be made that perhaps that isn't the story they should have told then. But that is where I question artist/studio.

Way back in the pre-TFA days there were reports of a standoff between Lucas/Arndt and Kennedy/Abrams. Lucas/Arndt wanted to focus the new trilogy on the teenaged kids of the OT3 and Kennedy/Abrams wanted to do the story as we've seen. Iger sided with Kennedy/Abrams, Lucas acquiesced because he just wasn't that invested in the outcome anymore, and Arndt got the boot.

Once they had committed to the Kennedy/Abrams story they should see it through appropriately. I'm glad Iger didn't force certain things that wouldn't make sense with the story to appease the fans (at least so far). Because whether you like the story they chose or not, the last thing a film needs is a studio meddling with the creator to check off some boxes that will help them make more money. Although it could have made some people happier in the short term, it sets a bad precedent, and will likely lead to WB sized mismanagement in the future.

Yes, that is how Marvel works (sorry to keep bringing it back to them). But the MCU is unique because of Feige. He, like Lucas during the OT, is the rare enlightened dictator. Like Plato's philosopher king. It works not because he has absolute power, but because the person with absolute power just happens to be making the best decisions. It's doubtful we'll ever see a convergence like that again for quite a long while. When others try to reproduce it, it hardly ever works.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Honest question. When it comes to big budget blockbusters do you think the priority should be to serve audience expectations or the artist?

What you say makes sense if the only goal of making a movie is to service fan expectations. If that were the sole driver, then they should have made their big reunion special, made all the fans pump their fists in the air, and then retire the franchise.

From my point of view, you make a movie artistry first and hope that the audience follows. It won't always and sometimes it will be divisive as this movie obviously has been for some fans. But if you remove that as your priority you end up with superficial fluff only intended to make a temporary splash but with very little staying power.

TLJ may not have worked for some, but there is no denying that the #1 priority of LF was NOT to just make everyone happy. They had a story to tell and they told it. To me, even if its bad, that is still much more worthy of my viewing time than most of the disposable fluff that comes out of Hollywood these days.

There is artistry in film.

There is, however, almost none in blockbuster franchise films. This isn’t the 80’s...where it was make a movie, see if they love it, then make more.

These movies are calculated to do those things now even before they have a story or an actor. It’s all about franchises and profit off tie in predictions.

The MCU is a great example. Some of the movies were very good and you can see good cinematography and character writing...but end game is by design and was a sure thing. Because they had the ground work...the fans were locked in.

And that is where Star Wars has failed. “Fan service” is the negative connotation...but really that means the existence of core fans. And you can’t have fans if they haven’t bought into the story and characters first.

They did that with the OT...they tried to do that with the PT with mixed results...

The Disney got it and for one “free pass” with abrams. It was all about scoffing at the cgi prequels and getting stormtroopers (which they kinda screwed up anyway) and everyone assuming it’s better. But was it?? Doesn’t look so good nowadays. Then they got Rogue One that kinda reinforced the notion that anything Star Wars would sell “ok”...

Then they screwed up the big picture and fell off a damn cliff. It’s still a high priced cliff In Beverly Hills...but the trajectory is unmistakable.

They STOPPED Making Star Wars movies...that can’t be “understated”. It’s the most glaring indictment in recent Hollywood history. You don’t even need to have the trial.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

I agree that they can coexist. And boy do they still throw the fans a bone. I mean we're getting Palpatine back for IX. I'm hoping they find a way to pull that off well, but I'm not overly optimistic. (No more clones please!)

My big dispute in general is that there is a demand for a reuniting of the big 3, which I understand. But in the story that they decided to tell, it makes perfect sense not to do that just due to the themes of the new movies and the isolation from the new generation.

Now there is an argument to be made that perhaps that isn't the story they should have told then. But that is where I question artist/studio.

Way back in the pre-TFA days there were reports of a standoff between Lucas/Arndt and Kennedy/Abrams. Lucas/Arndt wanted to focus the new trilogy on the teenaged kids of the OT3 and Kennedy/Abrams wanted to do the story as we've seen. Iger sided with Kennedy/Abrams, Lucas acquiesced because he just wasn't that invested in the outcome anymore, and Arndt got the boot.

Once they had committed to the Kennedy/Abrams story they should see it through appropriately. I'm glad Iger didn't force certain things that wouldn't make sense with the story to appease the fans (at least so far). Because whether you like the story they chose or not, the last thing a film needs is a studio meddling with the creator to check off some boxes that will help them make more money. Although it could have made some people happier in the short term, it sets a bad precedent, and will likely lead to WB sized mismanagement in the future.

Yes, that is how Marvel works (sorry to keep bringing it back to them). But the MCU is unique because of Feige. He, like Lucas during the OT, is the rare enlightened dictator. Like Plato's philosopher king. It works not because he has absolute power, but because the person with absolute power just happens to be making the best decisions. It's doubtful we'll ever see a convergence like that again for quite a long while. When others try to reproduce it, it hardly ever works.

9 is complete damage control.

And what’s amazing is that there’s so much damage control on something that should be a slam dunk.

I guess sometimes the “easy” things are inexplicably hard.


And no offense - but nothing they’ve shot so far makes any sense. None. Kennedy is Incompetent and abrams did a hyped reboot. Characters are empty at best...silly at worst. Killed off the iconic characters in silly short order...on and off the screen.

These movies are bad. And though I can’t be non-objective...I wonder if I watched 7 and 8 with no knowledge of Star Wars I wonder if it would interest me more than John carter?
It’s a legit question.

It doesn’t have what the first ones did...no compelling baddies...no “Wars” in a movie with that titles...characters that are present as “mysterious” without follow up....

Just not really much substance.

 

[Indy_UK]

This will be a total fan service film which as JJ has said will give a 'satisfying' just to tie up this dodgy trilogy.

I'm now eager to just move away from this saga and in a new direction without the drain of the previous films

 

[Gomer]

There is artistry in film.

There is, however, almost none in blockbuster franchise films. This isn’t the 80’s...where it was make a movie, see if they love it, then make more.

These movies are calculated to do those things now even before they have a story or an actor. It’s all about franchises and profit off tie in predictions.

The MCU is a great example. Some of the movies were very good and you can see good cinematography and character writing...but end game is by design and was a sure thing. Because they had the ground work...the fans were locked in.

And that is where Star Wars has failed. “Fan service” is the negative connotation...but really that means the existence of core fans. And you can’t have fans if they haven’t bought into the story and characters first.

They did that with the OT...they tried to do that with the PT with mixed results...

The Disney got it and for one “free pass” with abrams. It was all about scoffing at the cgi prequels and getting stormtroopers (which they kinda screwed up anyway) and everyone assuming it’s better. But was it?? Doesn’t look so good nowadays. Then they got Rogue One that kinda reinforced the notion that anything Star Wars would sell “ok”...

Then they screwed up the big picture and fell off a damn cliff. It’s still a high priced cliff In Beverly Hills...but the trajectory is unmistakable.

They STOPPED Making Star Wars movies...that can’t be “understated”. It’s the most glaring indictment in recent Hollywood history. You don’t even need to have the trial.

This is, of course, all a matter of opinion. TO me, TLJ was the first movie to truly feel like Star Wars for me in quite a long time. Hence the divisiveness.

But to your main point, are we rooting for Disney to make SW a success or are we rooting for great SW movies? I have no interest in Disney's bottom line. I own no stock. I dont' care how much the toys or comics or branded monoloply games sell. If they make a few movies I love and then disappear for another 10 years, I'd rather have that then a new mediocre movie every year for the next 20 while Disney rakes in the bucks.

But they are two separate problems. You may be correct in your assessment that Disney has mismanaged this cash cow into something slightly lesser than it could have been from an overall revenue standpoint. But in the end, I don't really care one way or the other. I'm just looking for new Star Wars movies to watch over and over again. I'm looking for my kids to become big SW fans just like me. And they have. My son watches TLJ or TFA at least once a week.

In the end, as a fan, that is far more important to me the hitting maximum box office potential.

 

[Gomer]

9 is complete damage control.

And what’s amazing is that there’s so much damage control on something that should be a slam dunk.

I guess sometimes the “easy” things are inexplicably hard.


And no offense - but nothing they’ve shot so far makes any sense. None. Kennedy is Incompetent and abrams did a hyped reboot. Characters are empty at best...silly at worst. Killed off the iconic characters in silly short order...on and off the screen.

These movies are bad. And though I can’t be non-objective...I wonder if I watched 7 and 8 with no knowledge of Star Wars I wonder if it would interest me more than John carter?
It’s a legit question.

It doesn’t have what the first ones did...no compelling baddies...no “Wars” in a movie with that titles...characters that are present as “mysterious” without follow up....

Just not really much substance.

Are you saying you don't believe their claims that it was always the intent since frame 1 to bring back palpatine?!?!?!

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

This is, of course, all a matter of opinion. TO me, TLJ was the first movie to truly feel like Star Wars for me in quite a long time. Hence the divisiveness.

But to your main point, are we rooting for Disney to make SW a success or are we rooting for great SW movies? I have no interest in Disney's bottom line. I own no stock. I dont' care how much the toys or comics or branded monoloply games sell. If they make a few movies I love and then disappear for another 10 years, I'd rather have that then a new mediocre movie every year for the next 20 while Disney rakes in the bucks.

But they are two separate problems. You may be correct in your assessment that Disney has mismanaged this cash cow into something slightly lesser than it could have been from an overall revenue standpoint. But in the end, I don't really care one way or the other. I'm just looking for new Star Wars movies to watch over and over again. I'm looking for my kids to become big SW fans just like me. And they have. My son watches TLJ or TFA at least once a week.

In the end, as a fan, that is far more important to me the hitting maximum box office potential.

I think you hit it on the head. Fans want a movie to enjoy and always rewatch and enjoy.

Disney wants long term guaranteed revenue.

The problem is that Igers accountants have not a creative bone in their bodies. The way to long term riches is to give the fans what the want. Star Wars without George’s cgi or some 1930’s rusher serial genre.

Just make them feel right...the profits were guaranteed. You chase Chinese audiences and equal splits between girl and boy fans and you literally shoot yourself in the .

They need a bandaid for that now.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Are you saying you don't believe their claims that it was always the intent since frame 1 to bring back palpatine?!?!?!

Don’t forget about billy dee...

And felicity dressed as boba fett (I wish I was kidding about that...but it’s in vanity fair )

 

[Gomer]

Don’t forget about billy dee...

And felicity dressed as boba fett (I wish I was kidding about that...but it’s in vanity fair )

We can all disagree on the merits or lack thereof of TLJ. Because it IS divisive and I understand why some don't like it. That's why it makes for engaging discussion.

But I'm really worried they are going down the complete opposite path with IX. I call it pulling a Revenge of the Sith. Lets listen too much to every complaint we heard all at the same time, remove all the artistry and make something that ends up feeling like fan fiction. I hope they prove me wrong, but that's the feeling I've gotten from what we've seen so far.

 

[Mike S]

I agree that they can coexist. And boy do they still throw the fans a bone. I mean we're getting Palpatine back for IX. I'm hoping they find a way to pull that off well, but I'm not overly optimistic. (No more clones please!)

My big dispute in general is that there is a demand for a reuniting of the big 3, which I understand. But in the story that they decided to tell, it makes perfect sense not to do that just due to the themes of the new movies and the isolation from the new generation.

Now there is an argument to be made that perhaps that isn't the story they should have told then. But that is where I question artist/studio.

Way back in the pre-TFA days there were reports of a standoff between Lucas/Arndt and Kennedy/Abrams. Lucas/Arndt wanted to focus the new trilogy on the teenaged kids of the OT3 and Kennedy/Abrams wanted to do the story as we've seen. Iger sided with Kennedy/Abrams, Lucas acquiesced because he just wasn't that invested in the outcome anymore, and Arndt got the boot.

Once they had committed to the Kennedy/Abrams story they should see it through appropriately. I'm glad Iger didn't force certain things that wouldn't make sense with the story to appease the fans (at least so far). Because whether you like the story they chose or not, the last thing a film needs is a studio meddling with the creator to check off some boxes that will help them make more money. Although it could have made some people happier in the short term, it sets a bad precedent, and will likely lead to WB sized mismanagement in the future.

Yes, that is how Marvel works (sorry to keep bringing it back to them). But the MCU is unique because of Feige. He, like Lucas during the OT, is the rare enlightened dictator. Like Plato's philosopher king. It works not because he has absolute power, but because the person with absolute power just happens to be making the best decisions. It's doubtful we'll ever see a convergence like that again for quite a long while. When others try to reproduce it, it hardly ever works.

I actually never wanted Palpatine back. It makes no sense and reeks of desperation after they killed off Snoke. It’s an admission that having Kylo Ren as the main baddie wouldn’t have worked because he’s not at all intimidating which he should’ve been. It’s the bad kind of fan service. Disney had a guaranteed slam dunk and squandered it imo.

This is, of course, all a matter of opinion. TO me, TLJ was the first movie to truly feel like Star Wars for me in quite a long time. Hence the divisiveness.

But to your main point, are we rooting for Disney to make SW a success or are we rooting for great SW movies? I have no interest in Disney's bottom line. I own no stock. I dont' care how much the toys or comics or branded monoloply games sell. If they make a few movies I love and then disappear for another 10 years, I'd rather have that then a new mediocre movie every year for the next 20 while Disney rakes in the bucks.

But they are two separate problems. You may be correct in your assessment that Disney has mismanaged this cash cow into something slightly lesser than it could have been from an overall revenue standpoint. But in the end, I don't really care one way or the other. I'm just looking for new Star Wars movies to watch over and over again. I'm looking for my kids to become big SW fans just like me. And they have. My son watches TLJ or TFA at least once a week.

In the end, as a fan, that is far more important to me the hitting maximum box office potential.

Have your kids watched 1-6?

We can all disagree on the merits or lack thereof of TLJ. Because it IS divisive and I understand why some don't like it. That's why it makes for engaging discussion.

But I'm really worried they are going down the complete opposite path with IX. I call it pulling a Revenge of the Sith. Lets listen too much to every complaint we heard all at the same time, remove all the artistry and make something that ends up feeling like fan fiction. I hope they prove me wrong, but that's the feeling I've gotten from what we've seen so far.

Are you bad mouthing RotS, the best movie of the Prequels?!?!?!

 

[erasure fan1]

The sense of ownership among fans over the last 20 years or so has moved from endearing to entitlement. If we get all the creators to bow to our wishes, we'll cease to have any surprising or great content from mainstream Hollywood.

I do get what you are saying. But I don't believe fan service is bowing to the fans wishes, or at least it shouldn't be. It's all about staying true to the series, the characters, the history... most fans just want their investment to pay off. And that doesn't mean pandering to the fans.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Are you bad mouthing RotS, the best movie of the Prequels?!?!?!

Hardly an impressive distinction

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

I do get what you are saying. But I don't believe fan service is bowing to the fans wishes, or at least it shouldn't be. It's all about staying true to the series, the characters, the history... most fans just want their investment to pay off. And that doesn't mean pandering to the fans.

The people in Hollywood want it both ways...

They want you to love them and give them all your money - but if you criticize they claim you’re entitled or stealing their “art”

And the end of the day - they just don’t want to be called out when they screw up.

That is entitlement - like athletes.

George has famously played that game...Disney is good at it too.

 

[Gomer]

Have your kids watched 1-6?

Yeah, they've seen all the movies at least twice. TFA and TLJ are the ones they repeatedly request to watch.

My older son also loves ANH and ESB. The younger one TPM and RotJ (he's nine so ewoks and Gungans are in his wheelhouse)

Are you bad mouthing RotS, the best movie of the Prequels?!?!?!

I know its controversial. I have this debate with my wife all the time because she is a RotS fan. My problem with RotS is mostly colored by Lucas. His comments from the time made it clear that he had become defensive about the constant criticism and to me it always felt phoned in. His heart just wasn't in it anymore. While I accept that on certain technical levels it is a better made film than the other two prequels, it always felt like George giving in and just saying "if the fans won't stop complaining, fine. Just give them whatever they want". I'll also never be able to accept how much that movie botched the easiest story to tell. Talk about missing slammed dunks. Annakin's fall should have been epic, but it the end it just sort of whimpered its way to the end.

For all of its many faults. TPM is pure unfiltered Lucas vision. It what I call an interesting failure. Yes, it may be cringe-worthy and slow, but it is never derivative. Its a very unique movie. One that doesn't really feel like any other Hollywood Blockbuster (for both good and bad).

 

[Gomer]

I do get what you are saying. But I don't believe fan service is bowing to the fans wishes, or at least it shouldn't be. It's all about staying true to the series, the characters, the history... most fans just want their investment to pay off. And that doesn't mean pandering to the fans.

Which fans though? From all of my (way to much) diving into fan reactions, hard core fans seem split on TLJ about 50/50. Love it or hate it. Very few in bewtween, So they obviously did service a certain segment of fandom. Just not the ones who didn't like it.

 

[Gomer]

The people in Hollywood want it both ways...

They want you to love them and give them all your money - but if you criticize they claim you’re entitled or stealing their “art”

And the end of the day - they just don’t want to be called out when they screw up.

That is entitlement - like athletes.

George has famously played that game...Disney is good at it too.

I don't see criticism called out as entitlement. But people demanding things change? That's entitlement. Trying to raise money to remake the movie the way you want? That's entitlement.

People are free to criticize, but when they act as if something was personally taken from them because they didn't like the movie, that is most definitely entitlement.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Wait...episode 3 felt “phoned in”?

Not saying it wasn’t...but 1 and 2 were awful from design to execution. What is the measuring stick?

If 9 feels “phoned in”...it will be the same thing: trying to make lemonade out of rotten lemons

 

[Mike S]

Yeah, they've seen all the movies at least twice. TFA and TLJ are the ones they repeatedly request to watch.

My older son also loves ANH and ESB. The younger one TPM and RotJ (he's nine so ewoks and Gungans are in his wheelhouse)

I know its controversial. I have this debate with my wife all the time because she is a RotS fan. My problem with RotS is mostly colored by Lucas. His comments from the time made it clear that he had become defensive about the constant criticism and to me it always felt phoned in. His heart just wasn't in it anymore. While I accept that on certain technical levels it is a better made film than the other two prequels, it always felt like George giving in and just saying "if the fans won't stop complaining, fine. Just give them whatever they want". I'll also never be able to accept how much that movie botched the easiest story to tell. Talk about missing slammed dunks. Annakin's fall should have been epic, but it the end it just sort of whimpered its way to the end.

For all of its many faults. TPM is pure unfiltered Lucas vision. It what I call an interesting failure. Yes, it may be cringe-worthy and slow, but it is never derivative. Its a very unique movie. One that doesn't really feel like any other Hollywood Blockbuster (for both good and bad).

I rewatched TPM some years ago and it wasn’t THAT bad except for the cringe. It might be because I’m comparing to TLJ now but idk. And what do you mean his fall wasn’t epic? The fight with Obi-Wan was great!!!

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

This will be a total fan service film which as JJ has said will give a 'satisfying' just to tie up this dodgy trilogy.

I'm now eager to just move away from this saga and in a new direction without the drain of the previous films

Agree...I’m over it. Sad but warranted

Which fans though? From all of my (way to much) diving into fan reactions, hard core fans seem split on TLJ about 50/50. Love it or hate it. Very few in bewtween, So they obviously did service a certain segment of fandom. Just not the ones who didn't like it.

I gotta be honest here: the problem with the 50/50 split is it assumes all opinions are equal.

They are not. The planet is not equal and neither are humans.

All opinions are not the same in VALUE as they are surface substance.

Am I saying some people know more or are better at assessing? You be the judge.

I know space gas chases, casino trips, answering machine jokes and rewriting the franchise’s key character personality was simply an awful idea.

Just one persons opinion.