Star Wars Ep. 9 Thread

[Gomer]

After an incredibly divisive movie (fact) and an unconscionable Star Wars flop? ...one that ties into a ride they just happened to open today?

...I’m sorry...what were we talking about again? This thing makes you dizzy.

As I've said in the past, i don't dispute your notion that there are some internal politics going on with Iger and Kennedy. I don't think it is to the extent that people who are wishing for her firing are imagining.

But you are really stretching on this one. Kennedy has been present for nearly every SW media event. Star wars celebration which you are poo pooing as "a comic-con" is one of the biggest fan celebrations in the industry. One where all of these die hard fans that people claim want to see her go, were there. If they were worried about fan reaction, she wouldn't have been the main guest on stage at the Episode IX panel.

And the vanity fair interview that you are waiving off, is one of the SW marketing machine's biggest pushes. they have done one for every release and use that as a spring board to release story and production details in the dead time between the first teaser and the big marketing push pre-release.

Kennedy and Iger have definitely had their disagreements. And they have butted heads over the direction of the franchise since pretty much right after she was put in charge. But to say that they are hiding her is pure wish fulfillment theorizing using cherry picked facts.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

I’ve said it many times...we can bookmark Kennedy until something does or DOESNT happen. It will be shown for what it is one way or another.

The only thing I have to correct is that is most definitely a comic con. It’s zealot central. Great for Disney...but these people live their lives around it. That’s not where a mass media conglomerate goes to get a “feel for the room” on one of their biggest things. They want Chinese kids who don’t know Star Wars to buy a ticket more than they want Steve from Encino to drop $500 on ANOTHER boba fett statue.

If they’re wise business people...which is given as a granted around here.

 

[Gomer]

I’ve said it many times...we can bookmark Kennedy until something does or DOESNT happen. It will be shown for what it is one way or another.

The only thing I have to correct is that is most definitely a comic con. It’s zealot central. Great for Disney...but these people live their lives around it. That’s not where a mass media conglomerate goes to get a “feel for the room” on one of their biggest things. They want Chinese kids who don’t know Star Wars to buy a ticket more than they want Steve from Encino to drop $500 on ANOTHER boba fett statue.

If they’re wise business people...which is given as a granted around here.

Well then maybe we need to clear something up. Who is it exactly that hates Kennedy and thinks she is destroying SW? Because I was under the impression people were saying that she was mismanaging with the fans. General audiences, critics, media, all loved TLJ right? But it was the offense to these mega-fans (the type who would go to celebration) who had had it with her and wanted her gone. I remember anti-TLJ internet people foaming at the mouth for how much kennedy would get booed when the fans sowed up at Celebration. Guess they overestimated their numbers or enthusiasm for the public embarrassment of enemy#1.

I mean we keep hearing how Solo failed because of the fan backlash against TLJ. That TLJ should have made even more money but it ed off the hard core fans who didn't give repeat business. But at the actual fan event, that was nowhere to be seen.

So I guess now we are holding Kennedy accountable for the China under-performance instead? Did they not go see these movies because of the story direction? That doesn't seem very plausible to me. No one has ever gotten SW to penetrate China. Not even Lucas. So, its not really te disappointment to live up to whatever franchise expectations Chinese audiences had. Its failure to capture the initial audience. If Wall St and Business media are the people we're now saying we're worrying about. I would think they could care less about what the story was. As we've seen from things like The Fast & the Furious, Pacific Rim, and Transformers franchises, quality is not even close to a necessity to succeed in China. So it would seem marketing and business decisions would be more to blame there. And that rests squarely with Disney, not Lucasfilm.

 

[LSLS]

Well then maybe we need to clear something up. Who is it exactly that hates Kennedy and thinks she is destroying SW? Because I was under the impression people were saying that she was mismanaging with the fans. General audiences, critics, media, all loved TLJ right? But it was the offense to these mega-fans (the type who would go to celebration) who had had it with her and wanted her gone. I remember anti-TLJ internet people foaming at the mouth for how much kennedy would get booed when the fans sowed up at Celebration. Guess they overestimated their numbers or enthusiasm for the public embarrassment of enemy#1.

I mean we keep hearing how Solo failed because of the fan backlash against TLJ. That TLJ should have made even more money but it ****ed off the hard core fans who didn't give repeat business. But at the actual fan event, that was nowhere to be seen.

So I guess now we are holding Kennedy accountable for the China under-performance instead? Did they not go see these movies because of the story direction? That doesn't seem very plausible to me. No one has ever gotten SW to penetrate China. Not even Lucas. So, its not really te disappointment to live up to whatever franchise expectations Chinese audiences had. Its failure to capture the initial audience. If Wall St and Business media are the people we're now saying we're worrying about. I would think they could care less about what the story was. As we've seen from things like The Fast & the Furious, Pacific Rim, and Transformers franchises, quality is not even close to a necessity to succeed in China. So it would seem marketing and business decisions would be more to blame there. And that rests squarely with Disney, not Lucasfilm.

TLJ saw a drop from weekend 1 to weekend 2 of 67.5%. Not sure you can say that was just mega-fans and all others loved it. The fact with Solo is a lot of things contributed to that disaster, but TLJ is definitely one of those. The real test is going to be Rise of Skywalker. If that brings in closer to TFA numbers, I think at best, you could say TLJ caused a temporary lull (and the case could be made it really didn't have much of an impact at all in the first place). But if it is closer to TLJ (or God forbid under it), I think it's going to be a lot harder to point to anything else.

As someone who is not a mega-fan, I was bored in good chunks of TLJ. I never took issue with the Luke stuff, I actually liked the force things, etc. But what is worst about that movie for me, is the trailer. It was so good, and gave teasers of such massive plot lines that never came, or went for like 30 seconds, that I don't trust the 9 trailers. No matter how epic now, in the back of my mind, TLJ is ingrained. Seriously, go back and watch that trailer some time now that you have seen the movie (I actually did this a few weeks back). I'd be willing to bet a lot of the anger on this movie (not all, and maybe not even consciously) revolves around what people were prepped to see in that movie vs. what they actually saw.

 

[Gomer]

TLJ saw a drop from weekend 1 to weekend 2 of 67.5%. Not sure you can say that was just mega-fans and all others loved it. The fact with Solo is a lot of things contributed to that disaster, but TLJ is definitely one of those. The real test is going to be Rise of Skywalker. If that brings in closer to TFA numbers, I think at best, you could say TLJ caused a temporary lull (and the case could be made it really didn't have much of an impact at all in the first place). But if it is closer to TLJ (or God forbid under it), I think it's going to be a lot harder to point to anything else.

First, to clarify. I am not taking the position that fan backlash is the cause. I was tongue in cheek saying that as it is often the default position of many "internet experts" who want to place all the blame on Kennedy.

To your points. I'm not going to defend the 67% drop too much. But a drop that big isn't an aberration with big front loaded blockbusters. Harry Potter 8 had a 72% drop and I don't recall too many blog thinkpieces about the decay of Potter fandom or people crying for a change in management at WB because they were destroying the franchise. People look for facts that they can use to back up the opinion they have already informed.

Like your idea that TROS making more than TLJ could be attributed to a temporary backlash due to TLJ. If you look at all three SW trilogies, they have all followed the same pattern. The first episode of the trilogy has always made more than the second (by almost the exact same percentages. The similarity is actually pretty uncanny) And the third always does better than the second but not as good as the first (again by very similar percentages, with the obvious caveat that IX hasn't happened yet). To attribute any new motivation to this phenomenon when it matches historical trends perfectly, seems like a desire to name a cause and effect without reason.

As someone who is not a mega-fan, I was bored in good chunks of TLJ. I never took issue with the Luke stuff, I actually liked the force things, etc. But what is worst about that movie for me, is the trailer. It was so good, and gave teasers of such massive plot lines that never came, or went for like 30 seconds, that I don't trust the 9 trailers. No matter how epic now, in the back of my mind, TLJ is ingrained. Seriously, go back and watch that trailer some time now that you have seen the movie (I actually did this a few weeks back). I'd be willing to bet a lot of the anger on this movie (not all, and maybe not even consciously) revolves around what people were prepped to see in that movie vs. what they actually saw.

Maybe this is just a difference of perspective then. One of the first things they teach you in any film criticism class is always review the movie in front of you. Never try to decide how you would have made it better. And never measure it against what you expected walking in. That is how I try to view every movie I see. As I think measuring against what is in your head, or what was in the marketing, is unfair to the film maker. As they don't reside in your head and can't be expected to cater to our expectations.

That being said, I recognize that this is not how all people view movies and respect that expectations were a big factor for many.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

I’m saying Kennedy has mismanaged the storylines and it’s being born out in drop in demand and Disney very publicly reducing their production.

You can believe their excuses...people just can’t carve out 2 hours every six months and $15 - but they can do it 4 times a year for marvel....or you can use common sense to admit what’s easily identifiable.

I’m not talking online petitions and, writhing cosplay hate...that’s nonsense.

She just has failed to manage to the level needed and in a big time stock game that means you get the gate. Nobody (from Disney) has denied the rumors last year that they tried to replace her...which they probably would if they had confidence.

Just as bob hasn’t mentioned her in any speech and he doesn’t acknowledge Rian Johnson at all,

But here’s one thing: last johnson is Not A good Star Wars movie. Let alone a decent movie. you cannot look at a franchise movie as a stand-alone. They’re are pieces to an expanding puzzle. It flatlined in the theaters alarmingly quickly and led straight to a flop. The story was dead end as were the characters...which makes the rather bland farce awakens even more bland.

Critics have not been reliable about the Disney Star Wars movies...why I can’t understand? Because Disney is powerful? Biggest game in town now?

They did a reboot with flat characters and a sequel that’s a mess...there’s really nowhere to go but in an entirely different direction in the 3rd of 3 movies. That isn’t how this is done: marvel prints money for breakfast and they wove 22 movies together.

That’s how you do it. This isn’t dead poets society.

 

[seascape]

I’m saying Kennedy has mismanaged the storylines and it’s being born out in drop in demand and Disney very publicly reducing their production.

You can believe their excuses...people just can’t carve out 2 hours every six months and $15 - but they can do it 4 times a year for marvel....or you can use common sense to admit what’s easily identifiable.

I’m not talking online petitions and, writhing cosplay hate...that’s nonsense.

She just has failed to manage to the level needed and in a big time stock game that means you get the gate. Nobody (from Disney) has denied the rumors last year that they tried to replace her...which they probably would if they had confidence.

Just as bob hasn’t mentioned her in any speech and he doesn’t acknowledge Rian Johnson at all,

But here’s one thing: last johnson is Not A good Star Wars movie. Let alone a decent movie. you cannot look at a franchise movie as a stand-alone. They’re are pieces to an expanding puzzle. It flatlined in the theaters alarmingly quickly and led straight to a flop. The story was dead end as were the characters...which makes the rather bland farce awakens even more bland.

Critics have not been reliable about the Disney Star Wars movies...why I can’t understand? Because Disney is powerful? Biggest game in town now?

They did a reboot with flat characters and a sequel that’s a mess...there’s really nowhere to go but in an entirely different direction in the 3rd of 3 movies. That isn’t how this is done: marvel prints money for breakfast and they wove 22 movies together.

That’s how you do it. This isn’t dead poets society.

I loved Dead Poets Society. It was a great movie and one of Robin Williams best performances. He reminded me of my English Teacher from my preschool.

 

[LSLS]

First, to clarify. I am not taking the position that fan backlash is the cause. I was tongue in cheek saying that as it is often the default position of many "internet experts" who want to place all the blame on Kennedy.

To your points. I'm not going to defend the 67% drop too much. But a drop that big isn't an aberration with big front loaded blockbusters. Harry Potter 8 had a 72% drop and I don't recall too many blog thinkpieces about the decay of Potter fandom or people crying for a change in management at WB because they were destroying the franchise. People look for facts that they can use to back up the opinion they have already informed.

Like your idea that TROS making more than TLJ could be attributed to a temporary backlash due to TLJ. If you look at all three SW trilogies, they have all followed the same pattern. The first episode of the trilogy has always made more than the second (by almost the exact same percentages. The similarity is actually pretty uncanny) And the third always does better than the second but not as good as the first (again by very similar percentages, with the obvious caveat that IX hasn't happened yet). To attribute any new motivation to this phenomenon when it matches historical trends perfectly, seems like a desire to name a cause and effect without reason.

Kennedy deserves a lot of backlash. It is very apparent there was no real direction for the franchise. Look at how she handled Solo. Look how many directors she went through. I'm not going to get into all the rumors behind them, but each and every one seem to have a common "Creative Differences" mantra to them. You can like or love every one of the movies, but I don't think you can say she has handled the studio well.

To be honest, I couldn't tell you on Potter. I didn't think that movie was anything spectacular either, but I have no idea what others thought. I will say looking at release dates, you did have Captain America bring in $64 million it's opening weekend which could be a contributor.

I also don't disagree about the pattern. That is why I have been hesitant to say TLJ did a substantial amount of damage to the franchise. That's why I put a lot of stock in what this next film does. I will say that the fact Disney altered what they were doing with Star Wars as a franchise would throw a big red flag up for me. If they truly thought they were on a normal trend and everything was great, I don't think you would see them cancel all their backstory movies and go on a 3 year break.

Maybe this is just a difference of perspective then. One of the first things they teach you in any film criticism class is always review the movie in front of you. Never try to decide how you would have made it better. And never measure it against what you expected walking in. That is how I try to view every movie I see. As I think measuring against what is in your head, or what was in the marketing, is unfair to the film maker. As they don't reside in your head and can't be expected to cater to our expectations.

That being said, I recognize that this is not how all people view movies and respect that expectations were a big factor for many.

Not how most any view it. How many people do you think have taken film criticism classes? There is a reason they put trailers out there.

 

[Mike S]

All I know about Kathleen Kennedy is that there indeed was a time between TLJ and this year’s Celebration where we barely heard from her. Then we got that big interview with Iger where he took personal responsibility for Star Wars and said “the buck stops here” where I think he didn’t mention Kennedy at all. Then we have other interviews where he talks about how Feige runs Marvel as a comparison and doesn’t speak as if he’s taking charge away from Feige.

Personally I’m thinking she leaves for “more time with family” when her contract is up which is curiously right before the next trilogy starts releasing and I think when Iger’s contract ends too. If they did want to get rid of her doing it in the midst of the LJ backlash would’ve been a PR nightmare.

 

[Gomer]

She just has failed to manage to the level needed and in a big time stock game that means you get the gate. Nobody (from Disney) has denied the rumors last year that they tried to replace her...which they probably would if they had confidence.

They did quite emphatically deny these rumors. As they gave her a 3 year contract extension right after those rumors hit.

But here’s one thing: last johnson is Not A good Star Wars movie. Let alone a decent movie. you cannot look at a franchise movie as a stand-alone. They’re are pieces to an expanding puzzle. It flatlined in the theaters alarmingly quickly and led straight to a flop. The story was dead end as were the characters...which makes the rather bland farce awakens even more bland.

You keep saying this, but that doesn't make it true. You asked me twice to give my reasons for liking the movie, yet you have ignored them completely. Your opinion on the movie is clear, but I have yet to see you back up why we should take that as an objective assessment, You are entitled to your opinion. But just because its yours doesn't mean it's correct or universal.

Critics have not been reliable about the Disney Star Wars movies...why I can’t understand? Because Disney is powerful? Biggest game in town now?

Haha. Conspiracy theories. Are you one of those people that thinks critics are getting bribed to give good reviews? I got accused of that for my review. I find it hilarious.

You call it critics not being reliable. But really its just critics not agreeing with you. Most would brush that off and say, "so...I don't agree with the critics on this movie. Big deal. Moving on." But because SW fans are nuts, they turn it into a vast conspiracy of the mega-corporation using its influence to fluff reviews. Not all reviews mind you, because we'll overlook all those other Disney movies that didn't get the SW/Marvel treatment. Just the ones they're made about.

They did a reboot with flat characters and a sequel that’s a mess...there’s really nowhere to go but in an entirely different direction in the 3rd of 3 movies. That isn’t how this is done: marvel prints money for breakfast and they wove 22 movies together.

That’s how you do it. This isn’t dead poets society.

If you can't think of interesting places for the third movie to go, that's on you and your own imagination. Whether they do something good or bad is up for debate obviously. But any 6th grader in a creative writing class could come up with a halfway decent finish to the story they've told so far.

Also, you do know TLJ made more than most of the Marvel movies right?

I get it, Solo was a disappointment. There are clearly issues that need to be addressed. But you end of the world speculation and lack of any backing for your opinions makes it nearly impossible to take you seriously.

 

[Gomer]

All I know about Kathleen Kennedy is that there indeed was a time between TLJ and this year’s Celebration where we barely heard from her. Then we got that big interview with Iger where he took personal responsibility for Star Wars and said “the buck stops here” where I think he didn’t mention Kennedy at all. Then we have other interviews where he talks about how Feige runs Marvel as a comparison and doesn’t speak as if he’s taking charge away from Feige.

Personally I’m thinking she leaves for “more time with family” when her contract is up which is curiously right before the next trilogy starts releasing and I think when Iger’s contract ends too. If they did want to get rid of her doing it in the midst of the LJ backlash would’ve been a PR nightmare.

Pretty standard really. My employer recently had a down quarter and everyone was put on media blackout outside of our CEO until they could manage the spin. After it blows over, everyone is given free reign again.

 

[Gomer]

Kennedy deserves a lot of backlash. It is very apparent there was no real direction for the franchise. Look at how she handled Solo. Look how many directors she went through. I'm not going to get into all the rumors behind them, but each and every one seem to have a common "Creative Differences" mantra to them. You can like or love every one of the movies, but I don't think you can say she has handled the studio well.

As I understand it, the Solo situation was more of a case of your typical creative butting of heads. Very similar i'd imagine to the Edgar Wright Ant-Man fiasco. A creative process not connecting with fiscal realities of blockbuster filmmaking. Pretty common, but subject o drama because its SW.

For Rogue One: I know someone who saw an early cut of the film. And just from his opinion, thank god they booted Edwards because the movie was apparently a slog before the reshoots.

I also don't disagree about the pattern. That is why I have been hesitant to say TLJ did a substantial amount of damage to the franchise. That's why I put a lot of stock in what this next film does. I will say that the fact Disney altered what they were doing with Star Wars as a franchise would throw a big red flag up for me. If they truly thought they were on a normal trend and everything was great, I don't think you would see them cancel all their backstory movies and go on a 3 year break.

I don't think it is a normal trend at all. Solo was a clear disappointment. Where I take issue is fans and outsiders trying to attribute a cause without any real knowledge of what is happening inside the company. Because when we do that, we're are basically forcing that cause to fit whatever our existing opinion already is. And you can have your opinion on the reason. You are welcome to that. My issue is more with others who try to display that opinion as indisputable fact. No one knows for sure. Anything we say here is biased speculation (that's all incluisive, not accusing you of bias, but saying we are all biased to some degree by our own opinions on the franchise)

Not how most any view it. How many people do you think have taken film criticism classes? There is a reason they put trailers out there.

I was telling you how I view a movie. I also happen to think it is the fairest way to view a movie. Because once studios try to go down the impossible path of fitting something to meet fan expectations you end up in focus group hell, homogenizing the product and removing most of the art.

Some may be fine with that. But I'm of the old school. I still prefer auteurs behind my blockbusters. when they start ot feel too much like a product, they start to lose me. But again, I recognize that others may view these things differently. And will repeat, since it is subjective, that is their right.

 

[MisterPenguin]

Here's a picture of Iger about to fire Kennedy...



Disney does their own customer research. If Kennedy really ruined SW with the majority of the public, she'd be gone. Therefor, the premise that SW has been ruined by Kennedy is false.

How many years does the "Kennedy's going to be fired" rumor need to be unfulfilled before people will let go of it? One year? Two years? Five years?

When she retires at 70 will people say, "Aha! We were right!!"?

Anyway, here's some incriminating dirt on Kennedy to satisfy some people's bloodlust.

 

[Gomer]

Here's a picture of Iger about to fire Kennedy...



Disney does their own customer research. If Kennedy really ruined SW with the majority of the public, she'd be gone. Therefor, the premise that SW has been ruined by Kennedy is false.

How many years does the "Kennedy's going to be fired" rumor need to be unfulfilled before people will let go of it? One year? Two years? Five years?

When she retires at 70 will people say, "Aha! We were right!!"?

Anyway, here's some incriminating dirt on Kennedy to satisfy some people's bloodlust.

She produced Joe vs The Volcano, which I will admit makes her untouchable in my mind. No amount of bad movies could ever undo that underappreciated gem.

So there, I've admitted my bias. I'm a KK fanboy.

 

[LSLS]

As I understand it, the Solo situation was more of a case of your typical creative butting of heads. Very similar i'd imagine to the Edgar Wright Ant-Man fiasco. A creative process not connecting with fiscal realities of blockbuster filmmaking. Pretty common, but subject o drama because its SW.

For Rogue One: I know someone who saw an early cut of the film. And just from his opinion, thank god they booted Edwards because the movie was apparently a slog before the reshoots.

Don't forget we also have a new director for Episode 9 in JJ. Just seems like quite a lot to me.

 

[Gomer]

Don't forget we also have a new director for Episode 9 in JJ. Just seems like quite a lot to me.

It is a lot of churn, I will admit. It's just funny, how this happens elsewhere and people credit the studio. HOw many times has Feige changed creatives. Rewrites, swapping out directors in pre-production. But if you like the Marvel movies he's a genius. If you hate the SW movies, its all her fault.

Honestly, these sorts of changes happen all the time in Hollywood. But most movies aren't being tracked through preproduction by scores of fan blogs, so you never hear about it. The obvious exception here is Solo. Firing a director during production was an extreme step. But unless any of us can see the movie Lord and Miller were tying to make, we'll never really be able to know who was right and who was wrong there.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

I loved Dead Poets Society. It was a great movie and one of Robin Williams best performances. He reminded me of my English Teacher from my preschool.

I know...his best performance along when genie and in the fisher king...

Mr. Keating would take a poo on episode 8

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

It is a lot of churn, I will admit. It's just funny, how this happens elsewhere and people credit the studio. HOw many times has Feige changed creatives. Rewrites, swapping out directors in pre-production. But if you like the Marvel movies he's a genius. If you hate the SW movies, its all her fault.

Honestly, these sorts of changes happen all the time in Hollywood. But most movies aren't being tracked through preproduction by scores of fan blogs, so you never hear about it. The obvious exception here is Solo. Firing a director during production was an extreme step. But unless any of us can see the movie Lord and Miller were tying to make, we'll never really be able to know who was right and who was wrong there.

I don’t think we know why abrams is back...I believe due to contract clauses. But I think the truth would make the state of the franchise much worse if we did know...just a hunch. It will come out someday

 

[LSLS]

It is a lot of churn, I will admit. It's just funny, how this happens elsewhere and people credit the studio. HOw many times has Feige changed creatives. Rewrites, swapping out directors in pre-production. But if you like the Marvel movies he's a genius. If you hate the SW movies, its all her fault.

Honestly, these sorts of changes happen all the time in Hollywood. But most movies aren't being tracked through preproduction by scores of fan blogs, so you never hear about it. The obvious exception here is Solo. Firing a director during production was an extreme step. But unless any of us can see the movie Lord and Miller were tying to make, we'll never really be able to know who was right and who was wrong there.

I mean, they have 5 movies. You have 1 director gone during the writing process, and 2 after initial cuts if I remember correctly (assuming you count Rogue One in that kind of boat). Admittedly I didn't really get into the Marvel movies until a year and a half ago, but did Marvel really replace 60% of their directors? Honestly I don't know movie things all that well, so I'll ask this here as well. Shouldn't she have known the directions they wanted to take things before hiring them? Or at least before completing filming?

I mean, I'm sure I'm lumped into hating Star Wars movies. But just listen to the people involved talk. Direct from JJ: "But without getting in the weeds on episode eight, that was a story that Rian wrote and was telling based on seven before we met. So he was taking the thing in another direction. So we also had to respond to Episode VIII." “While there are some threads of larger ideas and some big picture things that had been conceived decades ago and a lot of ideas that Lawrence Kasdan and I had when we were doing Episode VII, the lack of absolute inevitability, the lack of a complete structure for this thing, given the way it was being run was an enormous challenge.”

 

[drod1985]

I don’t think we know why abrams is back...I believe due to contract clauses. But I think the truth would make the state of the franchise much worse if we did know...just a hunch. It will come out someday

Abrams is back because Bob and Kathy drove a Sandcrawler full of money over to the Bad Robot offices. JJ was only ever contracted for TFA - LFL tried to get JJ to do the whole trilogy and he declined.