SPOILERS: Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness

[Disney Irish]

Not sure I follow. Seems to me it’s the same stuff as Daredevil where the Netflix shows are potentially but not explicitly part of the MCU. Like at long as they don’t conflict with MCU canon they could be but anything that occurs in the Marvel Studios movies and shows are implicitly the “correct” version of canon.

I think referring to those things as MCU adjacent rather than canon probably makes the most sense.

Anything that is directly referenced in an MCU movie or TV shows is canon, which includes any of the characters from shows that were previously deemed not in the MCU or even were previously MCU adjacent such as Inhumans. And the fact that we now have the multiverse in the MCU can make those characters canon, without directly impacting the main MCU timeline.

If you want to think of it another way, this is Feige taking back the characters previously "outsourced" to other parties that weren't working in the MCU.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

As I predicted based on the ComScore...

However, it did pass the break even point. Rule of thumb calculations has it at $44M profit. And half of all future tickets sold are more profit!

I wasn’t disputing that…just waiting to see where it stacks up against mcu…obviously still weird circumstances in some ways

 

[MisterPenguin]

I wasn’t disputing that…just waiting to see where it stacks up against mcu…obviously still weird circumstances in some ways

Yeah.

Tho, top loaded must-see films that have record first-week attendance have in the past had a big drop the second week because those going to see it, saw it.

Or, it has weak word-of-mouth.

<shrug>

Initial critical and audience ratings haven't appreciably moved since it opened (down a point each). For a live action movie, the ratings are good. For an MCU movie, the ratings are middling.

The last column is the profit based on the rule of thumb of [Box Office/2] - [Budget x 1.5].

 

[doctornick]

Anything that is directly referenced in an MCU movie or TV shows is canon, which includes any of the characters from shows that were previously deemed not in the MCU or even were previously MCU adjacent such as Inhumans. And the fact that we now have the multiverse in the MCU can make those characters canon, without directly impacting the main MCU timeline.

Okay. I mean, if you want to view it that way, it's cool and quite reasonable. I certainly don't think that's "incorrect" or anything.

I guess I would just say that I don't think using Black Bolt or Daredevil or Kingpin or Professor X makes the previous versions of the characters part of the MCU. It's just the same actor playing a version of the same role. For starters - and this is the important thing to me - it doesn't mean that the previous versions of the characters happened in the "main" MCU universe (referred to 616 as per this movie or 199999 previously).

The previous Spider Man films I would say are canon now in the MCU as occurring in other universes of the multi-verse (and heck Venon as well). Because the actual content of those films are explicitly referenced in the MCU.

By contrast, I would say Inhumans and the Netflix shows are certainly now possible parts of the multiverse of the MCU (even theoretically part of the actual mainstream MCU world) without being explicitly so. So really if a person wants to accept them as part of canon they are free to do so and it makes sense but also some can feel free to reject them as canonically if they desire.

I just would take issue with you use of the word "officially" in this quote:

So something that didn't get bought up is the fact that Black Bolt from the Inhumans TV show is in the movie. This means the show is now officially canon in the MCU.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Hmmm…I would like to see it reshuffled with the best movies top down and see if there’s a variance/correlation? Some of the earlier mcus that didn’t get huge box office but where better quality.

 

[Disney Irish]

Okay. I mean, if you want to view it that way, it's cool and quite reasonable. I certainly don't think that's "incorrect" or anything.

I guess I would just say that I don't think using Black Bolt or Daredevil or Kingpin or Professor X makes the previous versions of the characters part of the MCU. It's just the same actor playing a version of the same role. For starters - and this is the important thing to me - it doesn't mean that the previous versions of the characters happened in the "main" MCU universe (referred to 616 as per this movie or 199999 previously).

The previous Spider Man films I would say are canon now in the MCU as occurring in other universes of the multi-verse (and heck Venon as well). Because the actual content of those films are explicitly referenced in the MCU.

By contrast, I would say Inhumans and the Netflix shows are certainly now possible parts of the multiverse of the MCU (even theoretically part of the actual mainstream MCU world) without being explicitly so. So really if a person wants to accept them as part of canon they are free to do so and it makes sense but also some can feel free to reject them as canonically if they desire.

I just would take issue with you use of the word "officially" in this quote:

Well since some of the actors, including Vincent D'Onofrio, have stated their characters from their previous shows and the one in the MCU are one and the same its hard not to say they're officially canon.

Just an FYI, if Vincent was incorrect Marvel and Feige would have squashed it immediately.

 

[doctornick]

So count me among those who are not happy with how they handled Wanda in this movie. Making her the villain was fine but having her be blatantly evil was upsetting - I mean, she basically had no qualms about straight up killing multiple innocent people and was fine with letting America and a potential other version of herself die just to get what she wants. I get the idea of the Darkhold corrupting her but was just taking too many steps too far.

Just have her knock people out instead of killing (or threatening to kill) them and having her at least be conflicted about taking America's power maybe trying to do it in a way that "might" leave her alive but be willing to accept her dying if need be. She just didn't have to be so callous.

Or at least make her descend into malevolence by using the Darkhold more and more throughout the movie to show it wasn't her in control or something.

I thought WandaVision did a great of making her sympathetic while acknowledging she was "wrong" and allowed her to make some amends. This felt like a big undoing to all that.

 

[MisterPenguin]

Well since some of the actors, including Vincent D'Onofrio, have stated their characters from their previous shows and the one in the MCU are one and the same its hard not to say they're officially canon.

Just an FYI, if Vincent was incorrect Marvel and Feige would have squashed it immediately.

Vincent backtracked that a bit in subsequent interviews saying he had no sure knowledge one way or the other.

I mean, he might know, but is sworn to MCU secrecy.

 

[Disney Irish]

Vincent backtracked that a bit in subsequent interviews saying he had no sure knowledge one way or the other.

I mean, he might know, but is sworn to MCU secrecy.

Well I hadn't read anything that states what he previously said was not correct.

In addition neither Marvel or Feige himself ever came out and specifically corrected that Hawkeye's Fisk and Daredevil's Fisk weren't the same character. In fact it was Feige himself who suggested Kingpin, specifically D'Onofrio's version, as the big bad in Hawkeye.

So I know that a lot of people said that Feige would never bring in those other shows into the MCU, basically disowning them, I know I said it in the past. But we're in a different place now, and we have to accept that Feige himself is doing this, and that if he is then we just have to accept they are canon.

 

[doctornick]

Feige also has specifically said that the Disney+ shows made by Marvel Studios would be the first time that the MCU would be on TV indicating the past TV shows were not part of it.

I think you are just attaching to much significance to off hand comments. The old shows might be part of the MCU or they might not. I don’t see how anything elevates them to the status of “official”.

 

[MisterPenguin]

Well I hadn't read anything that states what he previously said was not correct.

In addition neither Marvel or Feige himself ever came out and specifically corrected that Hawkeye's Fisk and Daredevil's Fisk weren't the same character. In fact it was Feige himself who suggested Kingpin, specifically D'Onofrio's version, as the big bad in Hawkeye.

So I know that a lot of people said that Feige would never bring in those other shows into the MCU, basically disowning them, I know I said it in the past. But we're in a different place now, and we have to accept that Feige himself is doing this, and that if he is then we just have to accept they are canon.

Feige is not obligated to correct the musings of actors.

 

[Disney Irish]

Hey if you guys don’t want to call them canon or don’t like the use of the word “official” in relation to the word “canon”, well that is your prerogative. To me, and a lot of fans out there, the shows once deemed as the red-headed stepchildren of Marvel are officially becoming canon.

 

[MisterPenguin]

It all depends on one's definition of canon.

If by canon, you mean the one and only MCU timeline-story, then the previous Marvel TV shows aren't canon.

If you define canon to mean, "In the MCU, it has been established that there are multiple parallel superhero universes and timelines (like we saw especially in No Way Home) so... those universes exist and can be visited or have it's members visit the main MCU timeline..."

Then, yes, all those other Marvel TV shows (and Fox movies) are now canon for the main MCU as alternate universes/timelines that exist.

 

[Disney Irish]

It all depends on one's definition of canon.

If by canon, you mean the one and only MCU timeline-story, then the previous Marvel TV shows aren't canon.

If you define canon to mean, "In the MCU, it has been established that there are multiple parallel superhero universes and timelines (like we saw especially in No Way Home) so... those universes exist and can be visited or have it's members visit the main MCU timeline..."

Then, yes, all those other Marvel TV shows (and Fox movies) are now canon for the main MCU as alternate universes/timelines that exist.

Ok, now you're just playing semantics and you know it, so stop.

You know very well when I'm talking canon I'm not talking about everyone of these shows happening in the main MCU Universe-616, or even in the same timeline, but rather in the MCU as a whole.

So now that we're in apparent agreement can we just move on and just be ok with them being canon.

 

[doctornick]

Ok, now you're just playing semantics and you know it, so stop.

You know very well when I'm talking canon I'm not talking about everyone of these shows happening in the main MCU Universe-616, or even in the same timeline, but rather in the MCU as a whole.

So now that we're in apparent agreement can we just move on and just be ok with them being canon.

Sure, but by the same logic every single piece of Marvel entertainment ever (all the cartoons and all the other crappy other movies like Fan4stic) are also "canon" if you want to go by that logic. Which is fine. Sure, they exist in some Marvel multiverse universe. Finally, Hulk and the Agents of Smash gets the credit it deserves!

As an aside, since they played the X-Men theme music for when Prof X entered, I guess that makes X-Men '97 canon now too.

Anyway, the bigger question has always been whether the Netflix shows (and SHIELD, Runaways, Inhumans, etc) take place in the main MCU universe or not. The fact that any of them could be defined as occurring in another parallel part of the multiverse is to me kind of irrelevant because they don't have any impact on the main MCU story in that case.

 

[Disney Irish]

Sure, but by the same logic every single piece of Marvel entertainment ever (all the cartoons and all the other crappy other movies like Fan4stic) are also "canon" if you want to go by that logic. Which is fine. Sure, they exist in some Marvel multiverse universe. Finally, Hulk and the Agents of Smash gets the credit it deserves!

As an aside, since they played the X-Men theme music for when Prof X entered, I guess that makes X-Men '97 canon now too.

Anyway, the bigger question has always been whether the Netflix shows (and SHIELD, Runaways, Inhumans, etc) take place in the main MCU universe or not. The fact that any of them could be defined as occurring in another parallel part of the multiverse is to me kind of irrelevant because they don't have any impact on the main MCU story in that case.

Honestly if you're that interested we should probably start another thread for this.

But let me respond with just my own opinions, I wouldn't say that every single piece of Marvel content that ever was created is canon in the MCU unless and until its referenced.

So far:

In the main MCU Universe-616 would be the Netflix shows, because they are referenced through the use of Kingpin and Matt Murdoc. Agents of Shield was already technically in the main MCU Universe-616 due to Phil Coulson (and Nick Fury and Maria Hill), but personally I would say they split into their own timeline.

In MCU Universe-838 would be the Inhumans and X-Men.

And that would be it so far, at least that I remember. So its not like we're talking about that much stuff to consider canon.

 

[MisterPenguin]

Ok, now you're just playing semantics and you know it, so stop.

You know very well when I'm talking canon I'm not talking about everyone of these shows happening in the main MCU Universe-616, or even in the same timeline, but rather in the MCU as a whole.

So now that we're in apparent agreement can we just move on and just be ok with them being canon.

I'm agreeing with you.

I'm pointing out that there are those who might not agree because 'other timelines', for them, don't count.

 

[MisterPenguin]

Honestly if you're that interested we should probably start another thread for this.

But let me respond with just my own opinions, I wouldn't say that every single piece of Marvel content that ever was created is canon in the MCU unless and until its referenced.

So far:

In the main MCU Universe-616 would be the Netflix shows, because they are referenced through the use of Kingpin and Matt Murdoc. Agents of Shield was already technically in the main MCU Universe-616 due to Phil Coulson (and Nick Fury and Maria Hill), but personally I would say they split into their own timeline.

In MCU Universe-838 would be the Inhumans and X-Men.

And that would be it so far, at least that I remember. So its not like we're talking about that much stuff to consider canon.

Runaways makes reference to Iron Man, Roxxon, and other MCU bits.

And Cloak and Dagger were in Runaways.

 

[Disney Irish]

Runaways makes reference to Iron Man, Roxxon, and other MCU bits.

And Cloak and Dagger were in Runaways.

Good to know, we should probably start a list.

 

[spacemt354]

Honestly if you're that interested we should probably start another thread for this.

But let me respond with just my own opinions, I wouldn't say that every single piece of Marvel content that ever was created is canon in the MCU unless and until its referenced.

So far:

In the main MCU Universe-616 would be the Netflix shows, because they are referenced through the use of Kingpin and Matt Murdoc. Agents of Shield was already technically in the main MCU Universe-616 due to Phil Coulson (and Nick Fury and Maria Hill), but personally I would say they split into their own timeline.

In MCU Universe-838 would be the Inhumans and X-Men.

And that would be it so far, at least that I remember. So its not like we're talking about that much stuff to consider canon.

One of my issues with the Netflix shows being canon to the MCU timeline is the lack of continuity between the version of Kingpin in the Netflix show vs Disney+. This, let alone the fact that Cottonmouth from Luke Cage and Blade are both played by Mahershala Ali, among other continuity errors.

To me it's much easier now with the multiverse established, to assume the Netflix shows, ABC shows, Hulu, etc (basically anything but Disney+ shows) took place in alternate universes.

That allows people like Kingpin to be re-established in the MCU timeline as his own character in Hawkeye, similar to how there are many versions of Kang in alternate universes with slightly different characteristics.