News Splash Mountain retheme to Princess and the Frog - Tiana's Bayou Adventure

[DisneyDodo]

This is where I don't get the slippery slope argument of it having to be all or nothing. You may disagree with some of the choices, but Disney is choosing to address what it sees as attractions and theming in the park having overtly racist connotations, not anything that could possibly be read as having some connection to something racist. So, for example, if the black crows were part of the Dumbo ride I'm sure they would be gone, as the "red Indians" from Peter Pan's Flight surely will be soon. They judge Song of the South as a racist film and don't want an attraction based on the film in the parks anymore. Again, I understand why some might disagree, but the connection between the film and the attraction is explicit.

Saying that they either have to take such measures AND demolish Main Street USA, burn the entire Dumbo ride, close Frontierland, take down all the American flags, close any World Showcase pavilion whose country has anything racist in its past, etc. OR do absolutely nothing to address racism in existing attractions is not logical. It's also just a way of saying you don't want them to address any issues of racism in the park.

I don't want to belabor the point, so this will be my last post on this. You seem to contradict yourself by suggesting that Dumbo is fine because the racist parts aren't included, and PPF will be fine once those racist aspects are removed, but Splash is problematic despite not including any of the racist parts of the original film. Nobody claims that there is anything racist about Br'er Rabbit, Fox, or Bear.

As for your second point that it's not all-or-nothing, I've already addressed that twice:

That's very different from changing parts of a ride that are themselves controversial, as they've done with PotC and JC.

I'm not saying that everything will be replaced, just that there is no reason to assume that any of the aforementioned attractions/lands won't be. You can always conjure up some minor reason why this case is different, but in reality, the standard that's being set is one that Splash is nowhere near alone in failing to live up to.

 

[Sir_Cliff]

I don't want to belabor the point, so this will be my last post on this. You seem to contradict yourself by suggesting that Dumbo is fine because the racist parts aren't included, and PPF will be fine once those racist aspects are removed, but Splash is problematic despite not including any of the racist parts of the original film. Nobody claims that there is anything racist about Br'er Rabbit, Fox, or Bear.

We will, no doubt, have to agree to disagree. My response, though, would be that there is a difference between not including an outdated racist caricature when basing an attraction on a film that is otherwise not racist to basing an attraction on the non-racist parts of a racist film.

Again, people will disagree on whether SotS is racist, or if the animated segments are or are not, etc., but I think that's the logic at play and it makes sense to me.

 

[UNCgolf]

We will, no doubt, have to agree to disagree. My response, though, would be that there is a difference between not including an outdated racist caricature when basing an attraction on a film that is otherwise not racist to basing an attraction on the non-racist parts of a racist film.

Again, people will disagree on whether SotS is racist, or if the animated segments are or are not, etc., but I think that's the logic at play and it makes sense to me.

While I'm okay with the Splash retheme in theory (I just don't have any faith that the replacement will be comparable in quality), I think what you're saying here is a tough line to draw. How do you really determine if a film is racist overall or just has specific racist parts?

 

[James Alucobond]

I think the difference here may simply be Disney's intent. They never intend to revisit Song of the South, so you're dealing with a completely dead IP they've scrubbed from their back catalogue; there is no possibility of future synergies between the ride and features in the theater or on Disney+. It can only ever be what it currently is because Disney views its media counterpart as irredeemable and void of re-make potential, unlike all of the classic fairy tales and adventure stories that form the basis for nearly everything else.

 

[Sir_Cliff]

While I'm okay with the Splash retheme in theory (I just don't have any faith that the replacement will be comparable in quality), I think what you're saying here is a tough line to draw. How do you really determine if a film is racist overall or just has specific racist parts?

Very fair point. I think other people have argued far better than I could why SotS has provoked a particularly strong reaction over its representation of the Reconstruction-era South and of African Americans themselves from its release onwards. I can understand why others might, but I'm honestly not that interested or competent to argue over whether or how SotS is racist. I do think it's clear that Disney itself decided long before the current political and cultural moment (ironically dating back to around the time Splash Mountain opened) that the film's depictions of race were so unacceptable that they would not re-release or broadcast the film again. The entire setting and the dialogue of the main characters in SotS are read by many as racist in a way that isn't the case with something like Dumbo or, say, The Aristocats even if they do contain some racist stereotypes.

I do agree that it's thorny and people can reasonably disagree on these judgements. I also think, though, that you can say SotS crosses a line that a film like Dumbo or Peter Pan doesn't and so it doesn't follow that if you take one out of the parks you have to take all of them out.

I also have my concerns over whether they'll be able to come up with something of comparable quality.

 

[LittleBuford]

While I'm okay with the Splash retheme in theory (I just don't have any faith that the replacement will be comparable in quality), I think what you're saying here is a tough line to draw. How do you really determine if a film is racist overall or just has specific racist parts?

There's no exact science to it, but I think it's telling that Song of the South was regarded as problematic from the moment of its release. I find it strange that so many posters here say there are no issues with the film given that critics back in the '40s could spot them.

 

[UNCgolf]

There's no exact science to it, but I think it's telling that Song of the South was regarded as problematic from the moment of its release. I find it strange that so many posters here say there are no issues with the film given that critics back in the '40s could spot them.

I do agree that it's thorny and people can reasonably disagree on these judgements. I also think, though, that you can say SotS crosses a line that a film like Dumbo or Peter Pan doesn't and so it doesn't follow that if you take one out of the parks you have to take all of them out.

I agree that Song of the South is really in its own category and there's not much else that's comparable.

With that said, I would not be surprised to see some discontent around representing movies like Dumbo and Peter Pan which have potentially racist elements (not really arguable in Peter Pan, but I actually have seen academic arguments that the crows in Dumbo aren't racist). I don't think it'll rise to the level of removing the attractions, but I suppose you never know.

I personally tend to agree with the argument that the ride itself isn't racist, but I also understand that it's difficult to divorce the ride from the movie and it's easier for Disney to just wash their hands of it.

 

[SamusAranX]

There's no exact science to it, but I think it's telling that Song of the South was regarded as problematic from the moment of its release. I find it strange that so many posters here say there are no issues with the film given that critics back in the '40s could spot them.

I don’t say there’s no issues with the film; but the Bre’r characters existed before SoTS, and surely should exist after that. They’re just critters. It’s the storytelling vehicles and or/devices that Disney used and surrounded them with that are what to me can be found offensive.

Let’s ask a hypothetical; let’s say that in SoTS Remus told tales of Steamboat Willie ( Mickey’s ) antics with Goofy and Donald in the laughing place. Is there doubt Disney would reject calls to eliminate rides featuring Mickey, because he happened to be used in unfortunate contextual setting in a film? Would calls to cancel Disney’s most famous character be reasonable? Why do you think Disney went through the trouble of excising every live action SoTS reference, but used the Bre’r characters? Because they’re just that, animal critter characters with no inherent racism or stereotyping. They existed beforehand in old stories, were utilized by Disney in an unfortunate film and setting, and have been used again, not just in SM.

 

[ᗩLᘿᑕ ✨ ᗩζᗩᗰ]

Could all be forgiven if Disney were to use the Br'er characters in an all new Disney+ series? Tall Tails with Br'er Rabbit. Stories from Splash Moutain. what have you.

 

[Roger_the_pianist]

The Disney Br'er characters aren't *just* critters, they themselves are racist stereotypes. If you can't see that, it's probably because you don't want to and you have convinced yourself otherwise.

 

[seabreezept813]

Could all be forgiven if Disney were to use the Br'er characters in an all new Disney+ series? Tall Tails with Br'er Rabbit. Stories from Splash Moutain. what have you.

They do so many versions of their other stories, why not? In the live action Aladdin they changed song lyrics to take away negative stereotypes. By “erasing it” it feels like saying the Brer stories hold no value, and that feels like the cheap way to go.

 

[Roger_the_pianist]

Let's say tomorrow Disney+ adds only the animated sequences of Song of the South, kinda like sing along videos in the 80s/90s. It wouldn't go over well.

 

[Animaniac93-98]

They do so many versions of their other stories, why not? In the live action Aladdin they changed song lyrics to take away negative stereotypes. By “erasing it” it feels like saying the Brer stories hold no value, and that feels like the cheap way to go.

They could do a remake of some sort, but the most "problematic" aspect of SotS and its source material for today's Disney is that the movie cannot be fitted into one of their key franchises.

Br'er Rabbit isn't a Princess, or a Marvel superhero, or a Star Wars character so he (like so many other past Disney characters) holds little value to the Disney in 2021.

 

[seabreezept813]

They could do a remake of some sort, but the most "problematic" aspect of SotS and its source material for today's Disney is that the movie cannot be fitted into one of their key franchises.

Br'er Rabbit isn't a Princess, or a Marvel superhero, or a Star Wars character so he (like so many other past Disney characters) holds little value to the Disney in 2021.

Truly .. so sad for a company that was so revolutionary in terms of creativity…and don’t get me wrong with 3 girls we love the princesses, but we also love variety and quality. Splash is the essence of quality at WDW and as many have expressed layovers don’t tend to outdo or match previous quality. Give Tiana something of her own.. she definitely deserves it.

 

[UNCgolf]

Could all be forgiven if Disney were to use the Br'er characters in an all new Disney+ series? Tall Tails with Br'er Rabbit. Stories from Splash Moutain. what have you.

Potentially (depending on how it was handled), but that's never going to happen.

It's much easier for Disney to eliminate it and not have to deal with any backlash.

 

[Animaniac93-98]

Give Tiana something of her own.. she definitely deserves it.

The site of the now former NBA Experience would be a great spot to build this:

 

[UNCgolf]

The site of the now former NBA experience would be a great spot to build this:

View attachment 580312

Definitely. I would like to see another TS restaurant go in there.

They don't really have any IP tie ins at Disney Springs, though (at least not to that extent -- Goofy's Candy Company is basically just his name and not something from a movie or anything like that). I think they'd rather build a restaurant like that inside one of the parks or potentially at a resort.

 

[Animaniac93-98]

Definitely. I would like to see another TS restaurant go in there.

They don't really have any IP tie ins at Disney Springs, though (at least not to that extent -- Goofy's Candy Company is basically just his name and not something from a movie or anything like that). I think they'd rather build a restaurant like that inside one of the parks or potentially at a resort.

I would support it being added to POFQ, but DS has the space to make it big enough to accommodate the anticipated crowds and best of all you wouldn't need a park ticket to dine there (now that would be "inclusive").

 

[Phil12]

Nobody claims that there is anything racist about Br'er Rabbit, Fox, or Bear.

The Disney Br'er characters aren't *just* critters, they themselves are racist stereotypes. If you can't see that, it's probably because you don't want to and you have convinced yourself otherwise.

 

[UNCgolf]

I would support it being added to POFQ, but DS has the space to make it big enough to accommodate the anticipated crowds and best of all you wouldn't need a park ticket to dine there (now that would be "inclusive").

Oh I agree completely -- but I have a feeling that not needing a park ticket is part of the reason Disney hasn't built anything like that at Disney Springs. Of course you don't need a park ticket to eat at one of the resorts either, but they haven't really built anything at that level of IP at the resorts either.