News Splash Mountain retheme to Princess and the Frog - Tiana's Bayou Adventure

[Roger_the_pianist]

Sorry. guess I'm blind to your assertion. Could you please elaborate? I truly want to understand this position...

The animated sequences of Song of the South are essentially animated minstrel shows. The songs dwell heavily in the minstrel idiom as do the characters and especially their dialects. And of course the tar baby sequence is a big cringe, and Br'er Rabbit himself ends up in blackface when he is covered in tar as he abuses the tar baby, clearly made to resemble a black child.

People will argue as they have in these past pages that the tar baby is only a *metaphor* for a *sticky situation*...but I don't buy that. People will also argue that the dialects are vaguely southern, but they are full of stereotype that means more towards black dialects. I find them just as bad as the Dumbo crows, but since the animals fur is not black like the crows feathers people make a distinction. The dialect was even worse in the Disney storybook of the Uncle Remus tales, and I never have compared it to the original Joel Chandler Harris. That would be an interesting comparison unless Disney just reprinted the original material with Disney illustrations, which I am not sure is the case.

Imagine Disney were to release just the animated sections as shorts on Disney+
.. The Tar Baby sequence on a modern streaming service? Would be insane.

I posted the tar baby sequence here for people who hadn't seen it or hadn't seen it in a while, but it got removed. It's easily found on YouTube.

 

[LittleBuford]

The songs dwell heavily in the minstrel idiom as do the characters and especially their dialects.

They are voiced by Black actors. AAVE is a perfectly respectable variety of English.

 

[Roger_the_pianist]

They are voiced by Black actors. AAVE is a perfectly respectable variety of English.

Does anyone honestly think this kind of dialect would fly in anything made today?

People who want some kind of reboot of the characters...I have no idea what you think they would look and sound like.

 

[TikibirdLand]

The animated sequences of Song of the South are essentially animated minstrel shows. The songs dwell heavily in the minstrel idiom as do the characters and especially their dialects. And of course the tar baby sequence is a big cringe, and Br'er Rabbit himself ends up in blackface when he is covered in tar as he abuses the tar baby, clearly made to resemble a black child.

People will argue as they have in these past pages that the tar baby is only a *metaphor* for a *sticky situation*...but I don't buy that. People will also argue that the dialects are vaguely southern, but they are full of stereotype that means more towards black dialects. I find them just as bad as the Dumbo crows, but since the animals fur is not black like the crows feathers people make a distinction. The dialect was even worse in the Disney storybook of the Uncle Remus tales, and I never have compared it to the original Joel Chandler Harris. That would be an interesting comparison unless Disney just reprinted the original material with Disney illustrations, which I am not sure is the case.

Imagine Disney were to release just the animated sections as shorts on Disney+
.. The Tar Baby sequence on a modern streaming service? Would be insane.

I posted the tar baby sequence here for people who hadn't seen it or hadn't seen it in a while, but it got removed. It's easily found on YouTube.

I do see your point regarding the tar baby sequence. However, that story is pretty close to Harris' portayal of that story. Of course, we have no original source material to compare his writing to the spoken word of those providing the stories.
Regarding the black dialects; my understanding is that there is documentation in Harris' book that seem to indicate that style. Other examples can be found in books of the same period. But Harris genuinely tried to capture southern Georgia black dialect of the period. Indeed, the foreward to his book discusses just this subject. I don't think you'd hear much difference in that speech and what Disney depicts vocally. Would be curious if you can.

 

[UNCgolf]

The animated sequences of Song of the South are essentially animated minstrel shows. The songs dwell heavily in the minstrel idiom as do the characters and especially their dialects. And of course the tar baby sequence is a big cringe, and Br'er Rabbit himself ends up in blackface when he is covered in tar as he abuses the tar baby, clearly made to resemble a black child.

People will argue as they have in these past pages that the tar baby is only a *metaphor* for a *sticky situation*...but I don't buy that. People will also argue that the dialects are vaguely southern, but they are full of stereotype that means more towards black dialects. I find them just as bad as the Dumbo crows, but since the animals fur is not black like the crows feathers people make a distinction. The dialect was even worse in the Disney storybook of the Uncle Remus tales, and I never have compared it to the original Joel Chandler Harris. That would be an interesting comparison unless Disney just reprinted the original material with Disney illustrations, which I am not sure is the case.

Imagine Disney were to release just the animated sections as shorts on Disney+
.. The Tar Baby sequence on a modern streaming service? Would be insane.

I posted the tar baby sequence here for people who hadn't seen it or hadn't seen it in a while, but it got removed. It's easily found on YouTube.

The tar baby story itself (in many forms) has a long history in story/myth in numerous cultures around the world. There's nothing inherently racist about it.

That doesn't mean the specific depiction in Song of the South isn't problematic, though.

 

[LittleBuford]

Does anyone honestly think this kind of dialect would fly in anything made today?

People who want some kind of reboot of the characters...I have no idea what you think they would look and sound like.

They are speaking a historical form of AAVE; it’s a cartoonish version of Remus’s own accent. I doubt the characters would be handled that way today because of the associations with slavery, but the accent itself existed and is related to forms of AAVE spoken today.

 

[Roger_the_pianist]

I'd go as far to say that Splash Mountain is based more on the tar baby sequence than anything else, although the tar baby doesn't appear. The figure is replaced with a honey trap, but the climax of the tar baby story and the ride is the toss into the briar patch...

 

[Roger_the_pianist]

They are speaking a historical form of AAVE; it’s a cartoonish version of Remus’s own accent. I doubt the characters would be handled that way today because of the associations with slavery, but the accent itself existed and is related to forms of AAVE spoken today.

I will say I believe there was very little historical context for the dialects, it was only a play for laughs.

 

[UNCgolf]

I'd go as far to say that Splash Mountain is based more on the tar baby sequence than anything else, although the tar baby doesn't appear. The figure is replaced with a honey trap, but the climax of the tar baby story and the ride is the toss into the briar patch...

Which is why the ride itself doesn't really have serious problems, absent any potential issues with the dialect -- that tar baby/honey trap thing and the toss into the briar patch exists in numerous folk tales. There's record of a Cherokee story called The Rabbit and the Tar Wolf that is very similar to the Splash Mountain plot. A rabbit gets trapped in a tar wolf (set up by other animals to catch him because he was stealing water), then tricks the other animals into tossing him into a thicket which is actually the rabbit's home.

 

[LittleBuford]

I will say I believe there was very little historical context for the dialects, it was only a play for laughs.

I agree that the accent has been played (inappropriately) for laughs, but that doesn’t mean it didn’t have a real-life existence. (Consider the Cockney accent for another example of this phenomenon—there are many more.) I don’t find the accent’s use for the Brer characters derisive or inherently offensive, though I recognise the broader issues associated with it in other contexts.

 

[Roger_the_pianist]

@LittleBuford I would say the country bears play into dialect on a sour level. The show, although whimsical and entertaining, spoofs country music and implies that people (in this case bears) who play and enjoy country music are mostly stupid.

I think the bigger problem with the future of the Bears is the same as why Chuckee Cheese has phased out animatronic shows: in big part to Five Nights at Freddies creating a lore of horror around animatronic characters in kids minds.

 

[LittleBuford]

@LittleBuford I would say the country bears play into dialect on a sour level. The show, although whimsical and entertaining, spoofs country music and implies that people (in this case bears) who play and enjoy country music are mostly stupid.

I view it as a very affectionate, well-intentioned parody. Most of the characters are voiced by actual country singers.

 

[GoneForGood]

Does anyone honestly think this kind of dialect would fly in anything made today?

People who want some kind of reboot of the characters...I have no idea what you think they would look and sound like.

Similar to the way the universal DTV film handled it.

Maybe even consult the storytellers at the Wren's Nest, and countless other Black and Indigenous voices who still share the stories to this day, about how we feel these characters could be brought into modern times?

 

[Incomudro]

Does anyone honestly think this kind of dialect would fly in anything made today?

People who want some kind of reboot of the characters...I have no idea what you think they would look and sound like.

But it wasn't made today.
And here we are today, getting rid of things tied to (tenuously and otherwise) things from the past.
If the 20,000 K ride were still around, should it be re-themed because of the sequence with the natives?

 

[Bocabear]

But it wasn't made today.
And here we are today, getting rid of things tied to (tenuously and otherwise) things from the past.
If the 20,000 K ride were still around, should it be re-themed because of the sequence with the natives?

you can't look at the past through the lens of today...Every county's history is fraught with moments that a hundred years later seem horrible... You cannot forget the past nor can you erase it.
I believe the intentions behind Song Of The South were good... To bring these African American stories to the center of a plot that revolves around a young boy dealing with separation and divorce... To remove the stories from a ride feels sad to me...because it erases the history and really the only representation of these tales out there. YES! it would be great if there could be a teaching moment attached to the attraction explaining the origins...To me, that would make the attraction richer...and assign credit for the tales to their actual origin.
Part of me feels like we do a great disservice to the material by washing it away rather than keeping the characters relevant with context.
That said, I know its demise is coming...Just hope the new attraction will be well done and exceed the style and whimsy of the current ride.

 

[Stupido]

you can't look at the past through the lens of today...

You absolutely can, and we kinda have to make it a point to. If we blindly excuse the past as the past, we remove any accountability and open the door for history to repeat itself. Sure, society changes and things were much different back then, but to write things off as "that's how it was back then, accept it" is a little ridiculous. Yes, the Disney Company has done so much for every single person who posts here. We all have had amazing experiences with this company, and we all care about it. That doesn't mean we can't be critical of what some believe to be the "Golden" years of the company, or be excited that the company is finally acknowledging some of the skeletons in its closest. I commend Disney for doing everything it can to distance itself from that type of storytelling, and for going through the effort of making it abundantly clear the company they want to be. Especially when it's so clear that they could have kept things exactly the same, and the majority of the world would have been just fine with them keeping things the way it's always been.

 

[LittleBuford]

Part of me feels like we do a great disservice to the material by washing it away rather than keeping the characters relevant with context.

A disservice to whom?

 

[Artemicon]

You absolutely can, and we kinda have to make it a point to. If we blindly excuse the past as the past, we remove any accountability and open the door for history to repeat itself.

This is a falsity. There is a reason the quote is those who do not learn from history are destined to repeat it. Completely eliminating the history allows future generations to not know about the struggles that happened.

The key here is not to look at it only through the past, but in combination of then and now. From where we've come to where we are today. There is much to gain about looking at history critically in how things were in the past and how we as a culture have changed. Eliminating that would eventually result in future generations forgetting why we are the way we are.

 

[LittleBuford]

This is a falsity. There is a reason the quote is those who do not learn from history are destined to repeat it. Completely eliminating the history allows future generations to not know about the struggles that happened.

The key here is not to look at it only through the past, but in combination of then and now. From where we've come to where we are today. There is much to gain about looking at history critically in how things were in the past and how we as a culture have changed. Eliminating that would eventually result in future generations forgetting why we are the way we are.

Changing a Disney ride is not eliminating history. Disney has been replacing and updating its attractions since the parks first opened—the world has survived just fine.

I can respect (not to say agree with) many arguments against the Splash Mountain retheme, but the claim that people’s knowledge of history or African American folklore is somehow dependent on a Disney log flume is silly and insulting.

 

[UNCgolf]

Changing a Disney ride is not eliminating history. Disney has been replacing and updating its attractions since the parks first opened. I can respect (not to say agree with) many arguments against the Splash Mountain retheme, but the claim that the people’s knowledge of history or African American folklore is somehow dependent on a Disney log flume is silly and insulting.

Is it?

I mean, the only reason anyone knows who Hercules is or that Greek myths exist is because of the Disney movie Hercules, right (ignoring the fact that the name is actually wrong for the Greek version...)?