Splash Mountain falling apart (literally?)

[Tip Top Club]

I guess where we differ is, you see competition as just a battle of the attractions. IOA got this ride so the MK has to get another new thing plus another. That has never been the strategy for TDO. It has always been about providing a greater overall experience. Shopping, Dining, Entertainment are things I would argue Disney is excelling at. Consistently the rides have always been a part of this, but Disney is not as heavily dependent on them as our Comcast friends up I-4. You mention HP and attendance it's initial attendance impact. Unfortunately you frame it in a manner that does not look at the broader picture, economy and relative performance of the guys at USO. If you have a relatively new park with little to begin with, and phase in a cluster of new attractions in a short time, then percentage wise you're going to see growth. The real measure of success is to maintain that growth, something that has continually been done by Disney in its parks and attractions.

I'll conceed Entertainment and Dining. These are things that Universal really hasn't tried to excell at In my opinion. (With the exceptions of Special Events like Mardi Gras, Grinchmas, and Horror Nights)

That being said, I don't think it should be a battle of oneupsmanship, but once again the model you are using really doesn't fit. Look at Animal Kingdom, The only real growth that park has seen is Everest, and now there is no maintaining that growth whatsoever. So once again, I'm trying to see things from your side, and I think I'm further toward your side then a lot of the people on here (I think we need to find a middle, we don't need giant E-Tickets every year) but we do need something. Look at the growth of the parks in the past versus where they are today....

 

[PhotoDave219]

Good Lord man, you forgot about the new Tangled bathrooms!

Thats not part of the New Fantasyland expansion. That's so nextgen can go into the queue at Peter Pan's flight. Completely different project.

ALAS.....

Bathrooms is the best they could do? Thats where the ire is coming from.

 

[monothingie]

Respectfully, Martin doesn't need to provide sources. No one with connections needs to.

There are many on here with connections and you can usually tell by what they post. Check his post history and you will see what he says is legit.

Why not? Sorry but I like to come up with my own conclusions based on facts and not conjecture or speculation. I don't doubt that 71 is well informed (love the site btw), and if proven wrong I'm a big boy and will take it and move on, but I will not be told to accept something as valid just because someone else says it so.

 

[monothingie]

I'll conceed Entertainment and Dining. These are things that Universal really hasn't tried to excell at In my opinion. (With the exceptions of Special Events like Mardi Gras, Grinchmas, and Horror Nights)

That being said, I don't think it should be a battle of oneupsmanship, but once again the model you are using really doesn't fit. Look at Animal Kingdom, The only real growth that park has seen is Everest, and now there is no maintaining that growth whatsoever. So once again, I'm trying to see things from your side, and I think I'm further toward your side then a lot of the people on here (I think we need to find a middle, we don't need giant E-Tickets every year) but we do need something. Look at the growth of the parks in the past versus where they are today....

I agree with this, and that looks like what TDO is trying to do. There are three things people are looking for: Entertainment, Dining, Shopping. It is not practical to compete on adding a E-Ticket every year. It becomes a battle of diminishing returns. USO can afford to do this for the time being because they have a large canvas to build on. Disney can not, with all the parks except AK, and maybe Epcot, they're running out or out of room. FLE is a perfect example of trying to cram something into a small space. That is also why IOA has had such a remarkable growth in terms of percentage of visitor growth. I know it's frustrating to many to see WDW being out done by others, but TDO is more in line to compete other things in addition to rides.

But getting back to what you said, since they aren't taking the route to add attractions at the same pace as USO, Disney has taken to the strategy of using its strengths with Dining, shopping, shows,etc to differentiate itself. That is what NexGen, DVC, projects like Disney Spring are meant to do. ( It's also how we got so far of course in talking about maintenance on Splash...oh well)

 

[articos]

Why not? Sorry but I like to come up with my own conclusions based on facts and not conjecture or speculation. I don't doubt that 71 is well informed (love the site btw), and if proven wrong I'm a big boy and will take it and move on, but I will not be told to accept something as valid just because someone else says it so.

The problem with asking for proof in a forum like this when it comes to information that might not be available to the general public is the information isn't available to the public, so there's no way Martin or '74 or drew or a handful of others who have a track record are going to compromise their sources of information. For obvious reasons, as I think you would understand. Guest surveys are not public information, Martin can't tell you where he's getting that info, nor should he, as he'd risk the person or people whom he's discussing with. So the next best thing is going on his information track record, which seems to be stellar, as well as there are multiple people vouching for him. Regarding NextGen not working, there are quite a few reports here and elsewhere of NG being incredibly glitchy. Regarding TDO management, same deal as the surveys. And the rest of his post was opinion. I agree with coming up with your own conclusions, but if you look back at his track record, and there's a bunch of people saying he's legit, that's about all you can go off of. Whether you choose to agree or disagree is up to you. Sorry to intrude, but I feel like I have reason to stick up for him today.

 

[The Empress Lilly]

Meh, TDO and WDI all use Marni as a source even more so than the other way round.

A bit of networking goes a long way. They all watch those vids, then meet him, talk to him, discuss stuff with him. Technicians, local management, sound engineers, people within the corporation with a curiosity about its history.

Still, none of that is sufficient cause to simply take his word for anything. This one must never do, with nobody. Unless it is my word, which is final.

 

[WDW1974]

2 decades ago you had parks routinely open 8am-midnight. And everything worked. There were dedicated teams for animatronics. Show lighting. Park lighting. Projection systems. Not anymore. Show was only second to safety. THAT'S what set WDW way above the rest.

Oh Martin, old man, wake up and smell the Pixie Dust. How many WDW fans ever visited before Y2K? How many before 1990? 1980? How many regularly visit the other Disney resorts? (Now, I could just toot my own horn -- and let's face it, what dude wouldn't if they could? -- but rather than talk about my theme park experience, let's talk about the typical guest today.)

Today's average WDW guest first visited in 1997 as a teen and returned in 2002, then came back in 2004 bought DVC and has been visiting 2-3 times annually since and has no idea what TRUE Disney quality is supposed to be.

Show quality is an absolute joke at WDW and has been since the turn of the century. TDO knows. TDO doesn't care. They open attractions now like EE and LM that have things broken and they never fix anything.

Again, I want to hear that this ride looks like it did in 1992 when it reopens. Nothing else is acceptable. And that includes people in the above category (who don't even know what is supposed to be working) telling me that it's never looked better.

 

[WDW1974]

I stick up for Disney because as a shareholder I like to see my company being run efficiently. In the real world, not in (the new) Fantasy Land, refurbs have budgets, you can only do so much with so many resources during a specific time. Items are repaired based on priority. These are often things that you don't see in the guts of the ride. Does the lift motor for the main drop take priority over Brer Frog not jumping? I'm sorry that for you having a couple of animatronics means that TDO is treating you to a third world experience.

I guess the guests are also noticing, theme park attendance at WDW has never been lower huh?

If you truly think Disney quality is lacking, and not really nitpicking like you are, I invite you to take a trip to the IOA or the Studios and then get back to me about total show experience. Things like Disney Springs, Fantasy Land, NexGen, Avatar Land, DVC, etc are getting done and showing a commitment to reinvestment in the property. Think of the property back in 1990 and then today, look at the growth and expansion of quality world class attractions and experiences (maybe even Stich). Now can you really tell me that a Yeti that doesn't move or a frog that doesn't speak means that its all falling apart and coming of the hinges?

I'm probably not going to able to convince you of anything, because it's always more fun to complain about things and stick it to the man, or mouse rather than to say whats working out well.

Sad and typical of the midset of far too many fans, which is why we all get screwed in the end.

 

[WDW1974]

You are correct in that, but I think you are also looking at this a bit through rose colored glasses on, 20 years ago you didn't have a the Internet (as we know it) and a means to detail and highlight every little mistep and example of bad show that we do now. (No digital cameras, message boards, mobile devices,etc.)

Also 20 years ago the parks were 20 years newer. HS was baby, EPCOT had little of what is does now (FW anyway), AK didn't exist, MK was just getting Splash. 20 years is a long time, things will stop working and when they do it will be noticeable because people are actively looking for it. You can't continue the previous maintenance model because it just becomes to overwhelming to be efficient and practical given the size of the current operation.

That's just a crock. Plain and simple. I've been visiting since 1974. I've been an APer since EPCOT Center opened. I've spent countless days on property. I didn't need the Internet to tell me that WDW was an amazing product in 1983 or 1993. Just like I didn't need it to tell me that it was a stale resting on its laurels product in 2003 and remains so a decade later.

Actively looking? You'd be blind to not see much of what is wrong at WDW and you don't even have to be a regular with some of the very obvious things.

You're defending mediocrity and making excuses for management. Think about it.

 

[Gabe1]

I'll conceed Entertainment and Dining. These are things that Universal really hasn't tried to excell at In my opinion. (With the exceptions of Special Events like Mardi Gras, Grinchmas, and Horror Nights)

Those are some pretty big successes of Universal when it comes to competing with Disney.

That being said, I don't think it should be a battle of oneupsmanship, but once again the model you are using really doesn't fit. Look at Animal Kingdom, The only real growth that park has seen is Everest, and now there is no maintaining that growth whatsoever. So once again, I'm trying to see things from your side, and I think I'm further toward your side then a lot of the people on here (I think we need to find a middle, we don't need giant E-Tickets every year) but we do need something. Look at the growth of the parks in the past versus where they are today....

My thought is Go Universal!!!...it seems to be the only match that lights a fire under Disney to do anything, even if it turns out to be a FLE.

I look back at the very late 80's and 90's, when Disney knew how to draw guests in, to fill all those up and coming DVC and new resorts, by adding and adding to the parks, creating new parks and maintaining them.
Waterparks and mini golf.

AK just came online about the time Disney decided to do little to nothing in WDW aside from multiplying DVC like they were rabbits in the Spring, something they continue to find funds for. So unlike the other 3 parks, AK has for the most part stayed pretty dormant and never being developed into a full park like it was originally planned to be. Now the Universal match seems to applying some heat to bring all the parks into the 21st century. Now we sit back and wait and see if the 21st century imagineers are up to the challenge.

 

[WDW1974]

Harry Potter....mythos....Have you been to IOA? There's roughly two-three e-tickets.

If your argument is really along the lines of they have so much competition they should be more careful, then shouldn't they be ramping up their game more than ever? It's difficult to blame them for slacking off a few years ago, but the second Harry Potter was announced they should have been on their feet creating something that will draw in just as much, if not more attendance than Potter.

Quality is a great business plan, period. It's glaringly obvious that the regular maintenance that has already been discussed has been cut. That doesn't scream quality to me. And Transformers and Harry Potter Part 2 are going to continue to draw more and more folks down the road. What happens then? It might also be worth noting that the first two Christmases Harry Potter was open were the two worst Christmases as far as attendance goes in recent memory at Walt Disney World. What's going to happen when they have even more competition? "We're already the best, just come anyway" Might not work as a business plan for much longer.

Just a bit confused (maybe it was something I ate), but are you saying IOA only has two E-Tix and one is a restaurant?
Because I'd say that IOA has a good 6-7 E-Tix, but maybe I'm reading this wrong.

 

[Tip Top Club]

One of the problems with focusing on DVC is that it caters to repeat visitors, and some of them are aware of falling standards, and eventually if there is nothing new to do in the parks They'll stop coming. Or worse, Stay at DVC and go to Universal! (This is a legitimate concern that they are trying to battle right now with making things more inclusive. Re: Nextgen. Rather then building good attractions that will get people through the gates.)

I would also argue that none of the parks are anywhere close to having no more room to expand. If nothing else There are outdated Attractions that need to go like the Speedway, the Backlot Tour, and Imagination. There is plenty of room and money to expand both in and out of the parks.

 

[WDW1974]

I'd be open to be corrected, but I'm almost certain you are wrong. There was E-ticket nights (an extra fee option) about 15 years ago which eventually morphed into EMH. But EMH haven't been around for much more than a decade, maybe 12 years or so at most.

EMH in current form began in 2004. Prior to 9/11 there were MAGIC Mornings that started in the early 90s and were originally just offered at MK for an hour on three mornings a week, but spread to EPCOT and TPFKaTD-MGMS. After 9/11, they ended.

At some point in the late 90s, Disney cut hours back drastically at MK (especially in summer when 9 and 10 p.m. closings became 'normal') and offered E-Ticket nights (that for some odd reason changed quickly to the E-Ride Nights) that basically allowed resort guests the chance to stay at MK for three hours more for $12 a head and ride/experience nine attractions.

There never were night EMH in any form prior to 2004.

 

[Tip Top Club]

Just a bit confused (maybe it was something I ate), but are you saying IOA only has two E-Tix and one is a restaurant?
Because I'd say that IOA has a good 6-7 E-Tix, but maybe I'm reading this wrong.

That wasn't really the point, but In my mind the only TRUE E-Tickets are Spider-man and Harry Potter. An argument could be made for Jurassic Park River Adventure. Hulk, Dragons, Doom, Dudley Do-Right, Blutos, and Maybe even Poseidon could all be argued, but it was just my opinion.

The Mythos Point was in reference to the other guy saying that there were no good Restaurants at Universal (I'm paraphrasing) I could also point to Margaritaville, The Three Broomsticks, even Pat O's. (and While We're talking City Walk I love me some Rising Star).

 

[WDW1974]

Fantasyland is returning far lower guest survey results than were hoped for (compared to the budget)
NextGen is still not working correctly and there are a lot of upper managements at WDWco questioning it now.
TDO can do plenty right. I've said so where applicable. The business model of the parks being secondary to the resort is an ultimate fail and has to be the complete opposite of what's needed to compete with the folks up I-4.

THIS!!!

Read it. Let it seep in. And don't question it.

Man knows what he speaks of.

 

[WDW1974]

Good Lord man, you forgot about the new Tangled bathrooms!

What a fitting Post 1000 for this thread.

Because ... well, it should be obvious ...

 

[Gabe1]

Not that we can trust the Official Disney Attraction calendar but it is still showing Splash Closed on Monday, Tuesday and open on Wednesday.

 

[articos]

At some point in the late 90s, Disney cut hours back drastically at MK (especially in summer when 9 and 10 p.m. closings became 'normal') and offered E-Ticket nights (that for some odd reason changed quickly to the E-Ride Nights) that basically allowed resort guests the chance to stay at MK for three hours more for $12 a head and ride/experience nine attractions.

My recollection is the name change occurred because guests were expecting all of the E-Tickets to be open, and there were complaints when they found only some were and they were paying. Someone in marketing decided E-Ride was completely different than E-Ticket and would fix the expectation (non)problem. I don't think E-Ticket lasted very long.

 

[George]

O
Today's average WDW guest first visited in 1997 as a teen and returned in 2002, then came back in 2004 bought DVC and has been visiting 2-3 times annually since and has no idea what TRUE Disney quality is supposed to be.

I think you're using these numbers to make a point (which I agree with), but are they correct? I'd love to see statistics on this.

Oh, and if I ever claim to have a fresh rumor, you guys better be suspicious because odds are I'm completely full of crap. Odds are also that I would make it really, really ridiculous but the 4th or 5th poster in the thread would say, "Are they really turning CoP into a strip club? I hope not. Did you know it's an icon that Disney himself built?":lookaroun

 

[George]

That wasn't really the point, but In my mind the only TRUE E-Tickets are Spider-man and Harry Potter. An argument could be made for Jurassic Park River Adventure. Hulk, Dragons, Doom, Dudley Do-Right, Blutos, and Maybe even Poseidon could all be argued, but it was just my opinion.

If you only count Spider Man and Harry Potter then I'm not sure an e-ticket can be found in WDW. Depends on where you draw the line....some WDW attractions fall into that interstitial quality space between Spiderman and JPRA.