Spirited Thoughts, News, Observations etc.

OK, hide the women and the children ... most importantly send the fanbois to bed with their plush and tell them to hide under the covers ... waaaay down under them because it's time for some Spirited thoughts, observations, news and anecdotes from a long weekend at The World Maintenance Forgot, yes WDW.

Where to start? With a conclusion? Or should I just work on down?

Should I start with the good ... things like seeing friends, having great weather, appreciating some things that the fan community tends to ignore and seeing EPCOT in its best colors?

Or ... do I focus on everything else? Because all going to WDW did for me this weekend was exceed my already amazingly low expectations for the state of WDW infrastructure and show quality (hey, they did exceed expectations, right?) and get me more excited for my future visits to DLP, possibly BGW, DL ... and, hopefully in the not too distant future, the Asian resorts again too.

Let's start with the basics. Freshness. If you had visited WDW in 2006 and hadn't returned in six years, you would find no appreciable new product in three of four parks.

You would find show quality that already had issues showing more issues than the typical fanboi in therapy. Well, that's if you can actually get to the MK because the crumbling monorail system has to be shut down all day from 11:30 a.m to 6 p.m. to do track work in the midst of one of the busiest times of the year ... imagine paying $500-700 a night for a room at the GF or Poly with monorail convenience touted (wonder what guest recovery they are doing there!) ... but let's assume you find your way there.

Let's start with the stuff the fan community is all lathered up for, namely the Storybook Circus mini-land expansion of Fantasyland. What did I think of it?

Not very much at all.

As usual, the hype was much greater than the product, which can't be viewed in a vacuum in a park that is crumbling and has no wow factor at all anymore.

In the day, Dumbo's primary colors and the red painted construction fences all around come off as garish ... befitting a circus, no doubt ... but Old Man Disney was no more a fan of circuses than he was of amusement parks and piers and the shady elements that all attracted. So, we have a new spinner that is prettier than the last. And it spins high enough to peek over construction walls and we all know how much that has become en vogue in O-Town of late.

It is a beautiful kinetic piece at night when the lighting is largely coming from the white and red bulbs that rim the queue (likely more of a makeshift deal now until the old Dumbo starts spinning across the way) and the LEDs embedded in the fountains underneath. But it is still Dumbo.

Sort of like the Barnstormer is still the Barnstormer, just missing much in the way of theming. Its prior incarnation had some whimsy, this doesn't. But they weren't getting rid of the only kiddie coaster in the park, so this was a cheap fix. Oh, and thanks to Bob Iger working with a chainsaw, you can now watch Disney buses and CMs driving to/fro work behind the MK as you walk up the queue if you peer left. I will never get what Phil and TDO have against trees, but they certainly do.

Nothing else is open beyond a much nicer train station that is still a train station ... and a set of new restrooms (someone needs to page Talking Head to this thread stat!) What I found amazing is that Disney was too cheap to actually connect these facilities to the park's main water supply, so they are using water from the immediate area that is untreated (or perhaps non-filtered/cleansed is more appropriate) so you have bizarre signs saying the water is 'non potable' (that means you can't drink it for those with limited vocabularies) over toilets. I know Disney's prices are crazy for a Coke, but over the toilet?!? ... Of course, the reason is they have colored the water blue because otherwise it would be a very icky color and folks would constantly be complaining that something isn't right.

Are the details nice? Sure. But they are very basic. I was much more excited by leaf patterns in the walkways around Old Man Island at Dixie Landings 20 years ago than I am by various hoof prints and 'peanuts' embedded in this area.

So much of this area also suffers from having both exposed coaster track (Disney fanbois seem to have issues with this at UNI) and show buildings just sticking out like a Duffy alone on a shelf full of Minnies.

If this is what Disney believes will raise the bar in O-Town ... well, no ... they don't. They understand what they have built and why. This is about capacity ... and NEXT GEN ... and keeping folks from being bored out of their minds by offering something 'new'.

It's in 'soft opening' now, but let's be blunt: they had to get this open and open now. They have so little capacity in this park due to 15 years of taking away and not adding. MK just isn't a very pleasant place right now at all with crowds and walls and lots of attractions that have seen far better days.

Again, it also seems that Ops and WDI simply can't get on the same page no matter what ... Dumbo opens with small plants where every little kid (and plenty of big ones) are going to stand, so the result is the foliage that was there Monday was trampled and mostly dead or dying by Friday. How they miss these basics is beyond me, although I think communication and common sense are both lacking.

Now, what else was 'new' (to me) at MK? Spin the Fanboi? Pin the Tail on Meg? Dole Whip tees (I mean, REALLY?!?!) ... or how about the latest way to hook OCD fanbois and why it is so important to NEXT GEN.

I'll see you all a little later ... like in the next post!
 

Hakunamatata

Le Meh
Premium Member
One thing I'd like to discuss about 74's report is his statement that you can see back stage all the way to the road, while you are standing in the queue for Dumbo. Has anyone else experienced this? That seems like even worse show then the fact that a giant green show building is visible from multiple points of CircusLand.

I would hope that since the area is technically still in soft openings they have something in mind to correct this. :shrug:
 

pax_65

Well-Known Member
I'm surprised to see such a negative response to this thread. Is it so hard to hear criticism of your beloved parks?

I LOVE WDW, but I can see a lot of negative changes in recent years. My first trip was 1991... it was a whole different vibe then. It just felt like the standards of quality were a lot higher across the board, and everyone cared about guest satisfaction. This included the parks, the resorts, the restaurants, you name it.

I'm a DVC owner, and I still say buying DVC was some of the best money I've ever spent. But for the first time I'm actually becoming concerned about having ownership in a resort that seems to be in decline. Right now demand is still high, but if the slide continues will I still want my membership? Will I have trouble selling it?

I wouldn't have even imagined having thoughts like these only a few short years ago.
 

jt04

Well-Known Member
Maybe the distinction between fanboi and Fanboi needs to be mentioned again.

One is the geek who loves the parks, has a passion and a desire for them, and will complain loudly when that that they love falls well below expectations when there is no reason why aside from an ever diminishing budget and sensible business plan.

The other fanboi is one who thinks there is nothing wrong and everything is rosey.

I'm certainly the in the first category.

Problem is he is longing for the WDW of his childhood and that just will never happen because it can never happen. No going back, normal business trajectories, etc etc.

What I can't wait for is seeing him tool around WDW in about 25 years on his scooter murmuring about how great it was 'back in the day' while one of his followers attempts to spoon feed him his Dole Whip before it melts.

Indeed, but in that first category there are two distinct factions: Those who highlight issues and express concern, and those who highlight issues and demean or belittle anyone who doesn't notice or isn't equally upset. I put you, Lee and a few others in the first faction and have the utmost respect for your posts, sources and opinions. Sadly, '74 seems to dominate the second faction and delivers vitriol and hate that detracts from any value there might be in his observations and opinions.

To quote Marshall McLuhan, the medium is the message. '74 loses credibility because no-one can comfortably wade through the detritus to get to the substance.

I think they mean "humorlous detritus".

~TDO Has Spirit~
 

devoy1701

Well-Known Member
What is even the point of spending money and going to a place that you know you aren't going to enjoy? I can just see how miserable 74 was on his trip. I mean, you know you are going to be hypercritical and not actually enjoy yourself, so why even bother? Is there a point?

P.S. Where is the "news"? Shouldn't this be in the trip report section or is there some sort of entitlement the rest of us don't have?

I doubt Spirit had to spend much money at all. He tends to get special treatment when he visits the Stateside parks.

Was it something I said?

Seriously, I wish people would simply read what is written and THINK about what is being said. Take the facts for what they are and take the opinion from the perspective and experience offered.

And please get off the fanboi deal. I never coined the term. It came from some of the most vaunted Imagineers in Glendale and is well-known.

I am a fanboi as much as anyone else, although my standards and perspective certainly are not typical.

So....Spirit....did you have any fun during this visit? :lol:

It is hard to take your points seriously when you come off as hostile by the tone and context you are using the word. Tone is a big thing. I would love to read more of your opinion but if you just attack others it becomes hard to bare.

I truely believe you do not know what facts are and like what Flynnibus you are just here to stir up trouble. You just attacked a fellow poster for no reason and acted like a child. I assume you are older than me and it makes me feel sad for the state of the world when an older gentlemen acts like a child.

I am happy that when i go to WDW and when my family and friends go they do not have to suffer people like you ruining the world for them.

If you knew anything about tone, commentary, writing in general, you would understand that Spirit is a master at it. Though people such as yourself ignore all of the actual substance of the post and just focus on the writing style. He, probably more than anyone else, can spark discussion and excitment on this board. Look past what you seem to quickly consider childish attacks and take a minute to think about what was actually written.

And I'm pretty sure Flynnibus can hold his own. No one needs WDWAvenger to come to the rescue around here.
 

pax_65

Well-Known Member
Problem is he is longing for the WDW of his childhood and that just will never happen because it can never happen. No going back, normal business trajectories, etc etc.

It's probably a whole separate discussion but I question your "business trajectories" comment.

WDW went through a period of remarkable growth that came about as a result of a focus on quality and guest satisfaction. People enjoyed the resort and they came back. They brought their families and friends along. They told everyone they met what a great experience they had.

If you abandon that approach and focus instead on profits, this is short-sighted thinking at best... and disastrous thinking at worst.

This is not an inevitable business evolution.
 

jt04

Well-Known Member
I doubt Spirit had to spend much money at all. He tends to get special treatment when he visits the Stateside parks.



So....Spirit....did you have any fun during this visit? :lol:





If you knew anything about tone, commentary, writing in general, you would understand that Spirit is a master at it. Though people such as yourself ignore all of the actual substance of the post and just focus on the writing style. He, probably more than anyone else, can spark discussion and excitment on this board. Look past what you seem to quickly consider childish attacks and take a minute to think about what was actually written.

And I'm pretty sure Flynnibus can hold his own. No one needs WDWAvenger to come to the rescue around here.

This is a tired meme that says people don't 'get' what he writes. How could they not get it as he writes the same thing every single time? The names change, the subjects change but the substance is always (and I mean always) the same. :snore:

You are as condescending as he tends to be if you actually believe people here do not understand his point. We get it. Some think he is just plain wrong and given to extreme hyperbole mixed with whining.
 

asianway

Well-Known Member
Here's the sequence of events as I see them last night:

Spirit posts trip report

Steam whistle goes off at Celebration Place

Move to Defcon Two

Forces mobilized

Flurry of posts attacking the messenger with little regard to the content

At least, that's the way I see it...
 

jt04

Well-Known Member
It's probably a whole separate discussion but I question your "business trajectories" comment.

WDW went through a period of remarkable growth that came about as a result of a focus on quality and guest satisfaction. People enjoyed the resort and they came back. They brought their families and friends along. They told everyone they met what a great experience they had.

If you abandon that approach and focus instead on profits, this is short-sighted thinking at best... and disastrous thinking at worst.

This is not an inevitable business evolution.

I would agree if that is what was happening. The FLE is a half billion dollar addition. There is construction and pending construction everywhere. So I think it best that people be real and not hypnotized followers detached from reality.

~not under a certain spirit's spell~
 

devoy1701

Well-Known Member
Here's the sequence of events as I see them last night:

Spirit posts trip report

Steam whistle goes off at Celebration Place

Move to Defcon Two

Forces mobilized

Flurry of posts attacking the messenger with little regard to the content

At least, that's the way I see it...

i believe you are seeing things clearly...
 

jakeman

Well-Known Member
Here's the sequence of events as I see them last night:

Spirit posts trip report

Steam whistle goes off at Celebration Place

Move to Defcon Two

Forces mobilized

Flurry of posts attacking the messenger with little regard to the content

At least, that's the way I see it...

i believe you are seeing things clearly...
tin-foil-hat.jpg

Source: xdan0920's facebook page
 

pax_65

Well-Known Member
I would agree if that is what was happening. The FLE is a half billion dollar addition. There is construction and pending construction everywhere. So I think it best that people be real and not hypnotized followers detached from reality.

I wasn't referring as much to physical changes to the parks as I am to the philosophy of management.

The parks have always been in a constant state of change. Walt himself talked about how they will never be finished. I can still remember watching Splash Mountain get built, seeing the Tower of Terror rising up over MGM Studios, etc.

What's changed is the management philosophy. Today there is much more focus on short-term profit. As I understand it, every business unit in WDW is under pressure to increase revenue and decrease cost. This is what drives the generic merchandise in every store. This is what drives cutting corners on maintenance, rehabs and new construction.

To oversimplify:

WDW 1992: Focus on guest satisfaction. Goal is to exceed guest expectations in every way, encourage repeat visits and referrals, recognize potential lifetime value of each guest.

WDW2012: Focus on profit and money management. Goal is to maximize profit margin in each business unit. Focus on maximizing profit from each guest on each visit - keep guest in park, spending $. Expenses must be justified, focus on spending smarter. Focus on meeting guest expectations and minimizing customer service problems.
 

HMButler79

Member
No, they didn't. Again, I wish people would read what is actually written.

the term with a 'I' at the end was coined in the 90s, by a group of Imagineers (yes, gay men ... shocking I know) who didn't like that their work was being criticized by fans.
Now, it is more mainstream and their derogatory term is 'foamer' ...

Again, that is fact. You want to argue it? Seems like everyone is argumentative tonight.



Of course! Who wouldn't want people to read what they write and comment (whether they agree or disagree etc)? ... But I don't like it when people decide that instead of discussing the meat of my points that they'd rather discuss what an awful human being I am because I tend to be blunt.

Well maybe if they had better taste and didn't make crap w/ Pixar, CGI chracaters, chili dog belches, black box rooms with purple dragons, and Meet n Gropes as full blown attractions. They need to get overthemseleves cause thier ex-coworkers built IOA and Potter. They are just jealous because the days of even Baxter, Gordon, Wise Bros, Delaney, Bonds, Burke, Morris, are loooong past them.......
 

Scuttle

Well-Known Member
74 has the best posts ever. Without a doubt the most entertaining posts out of any of the forum members on here. Keep em coming!
 

COProgressFan

Well-Known Member
People who write that you enjoy hating the parks will conveniently ignore this. But this is a key point. It makes more sense to me for a fanboy to share this sentiment rather than make excuses for park management when it fails its job as steward of the creative product. I am a Disney fanboy. I love the rides, movies, and characters, and, therefore, I have a vested interest in seeing the parks at their best. That is why I get disappointed when show quality is not consistently maintained.

This forum has gone through this conversation a million times before, and it's maddening that it constantly has to be restated.

It's crazy if anyone really thinks that Spirit "enjoys hating the parks." If anything, it pains him (like it does me) that one of his favorite places in the world is actively being destroyed by its current management. It it upsetting and frustrating, especially in comparison to the first 25 or 30 years of its existence and the current operation of other "Disney Parks" across the globe.

And I agree with you, it certainly is maddening that conversation is repeated again and again.

Let's restate it - we love the parks, or we wouldn't be here, and we wouldn't be so passionate about them! We just wish the people who currently are running them cared as much as we do.
 

COProgressFan

Well-Known Member
Even if the game were really brilliant (and I haven't played it yet, so am still keeping an open mind about it), it appears to be so indicative about the mindset: The MK is no longer run to wow people, to fascinate them, to amaze them. The new goal is to keep the majority of people from being dissatisfied.

Wow. I never really thought about it this way, but if you really consider it, it makes sense. They seem to want to keep people somewhat entertained & satisfied, but not TOO entertained & satisfied, because that gets really expensive, you know? :brick:

This seems to be the case from the way attractions are run to the ground (with poor show quality), the way pyro is reduced from shows, the way parades run for decades, even to the way attractions and food locations are staffed.
 

MissMorrow

Active Member
To oversimplify:

WDW 1992: Focus on guest satisfaction. Goal is to exceed guest expectations in every way, encourage repeat visits and referrals, recognize potential lifetime value of each guest.

WDW2012: Focus on profit and money management. Goal is to maximize profit margin in each business unit. Focus on maximizing profit from each guest on each visit - keep guest in park, spending $. Expenses must be justified, focus on spending smarter. Focus on meeting guest expectations and minimizing customer service problems.

This really is the core problem isn't it? Unless WDW profits start slipping, we won't be seeing any change in philosophy from management.
 

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