Spirited News, Observations & Thoughts IV

[Lee]

@WDW1974, your prior comments and insight into licensed Disney owned properties and gambling.... I read this one in the NYT yesterday evening:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/27/us/gambling-debate-entangles-disney-in-florida.html?_r=0

I saw that, too.
I'll have some thoughts on it later today.

 

[Darth Sidious]

Well as for transportation, I take the train daily into Manhattan and it is a system in need of upgrades. The problem is a mixture of cost and politics. Someone always opposes new upgrades locally for noise reasons or congestion concerns. Then the projects become exceedingly costly and bloated. The trains here in New York should take a page from the rest of the world. I would love to take high speed rail into work... I probably never will though.

 

[michmousefan]

This is really funny - I can't go backwards on the Monorail. I actually stood on our most recent trip, even though the backwards facing bench was almost empty. And, I can't go backwards on TTA. Also can't do Star Tours.
But RnRC, ToT, and Space Mountain, I can do all day. EE, I can only do 3 times in a row because of the backwards component.

I ride Behemoth and Leviathan, (front row, no hands the whole way!) all day long at Canada's Wonderland. Here are Leviathan's numbers: 306' (height), 92 (mph), 80 degrees (max. vertical angle). No shoulder restraints.

(Behemoth #'s: 230', 77 mph, 75 degrees)

Leviathan is indeed a beast. So much power and speed. Makes the Hulk look truly puny. B&M have learned much since they made Hulk for Uni (still like it for what it is; but is is sorta showing its age).

Behemoth is also a fine ride, although I prefer it's sister ride at Kings Island, Diamondback.

 

[StageFrenzy]

@WDW1974, your prior comments and insight into licensed Disney owned properties and gambling.... I read this one in the NYT yesterday evening:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/27/us/gambling-debate-entangles-disney-in-florida.html?_r=0

I'm both in favor and against gambling in Florida, right now there is an agreement with the Seminole Tribe that gives the state a whole bunch of money to not allow more gaming. But if the state would receive more money for allowing gaming everywhere I would be for it. I do think breaking an agreement with an Indian tribe is bad taste though.

 

[PeterAlt]

Dude, no one said plans don't exist. I've posted some myself. There was a thread somewhere here 5-6 years ago for the LRT proposal.

There were. Over and over again. I'm not mentioning who because they know who they are. I'm not one to rub things in, so I'll save them the embarrassment.

 

[marni1971]

There were. Over and over again. I'm not mentioning who because they know who they are. I'm not one to rub things in, so I'll save them the embarrassment.

Really? People denied plans existed in the 70s 80s and 90s?

That's plans for routes, not plans to actually build them.

 

[Funmeister]

Which power lines have the bigger impact on the vista, the giant steel ones or the old wooden ones (imagine they're made of steel, not wood, for apples to apples) that are of a similar size to the trees next them?

As I wrote, the smaller naked ones can be absorbed more easily by foliage, rockwork, etc:

You realize you just compared power lines to a coaster right? You keep changing the rules. Either compare coster to coaster or dont. I mean next you will exclude some based on a certain paint color.

 

[The Visionary Soul]

Having lived a capitol city, worked for the government, dealt with politicians, I know how politics work.... I have to disagree with you. It's the same game whether it's Atlanta, Montgomery, Tallahassee, or Washington DC.

Political battles have NOTHING to do with legalities. Legalities have EVERYTHING to do with political battles.

I'm not saying the two are linked, I'm saying it could cause political trouble too, aside from any legal issues. Looks like the New York Times agrees with me though. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/27/us/gambling-debate-entangles-disney-in-florida.html?hp&_r=0

 

[lazyboy97o]

The driverless car is probably coming and will indeed be a game-changer, but highway infrastructure is never going to be adequate to meet demand, and it will remain woefully congested in urban areas. No one mode of transportation can meet all transit needs; Passenger rail (commuter, high-speed, and long distance) will be increasingly important to maintain a fluid transportation network in America.

To stay even remotely op topic, consider a Walt Disney World example. Any theme park would be hopelessly congested for hours at park closing if every party leaving the park had to be picked up by a driverless car, as opposed to the monorails touted "20,000 passengers per hour" existing capacity.

How about the original Disney World Master Plan as an even better example? It wasn't all monorail or all WEDway PeopleMover. It was a layered hierarchical system where each mode nada. Distinct purpose.

 

[PeterAlt]

Really? People denied plans existed in the 70s 80s and 90s?

That's plans for routes, not plans to actually build them.

Yes. As shocking as it sounds, it's true.

Minds, like the times, are sometimes hard to change. (This is not directed at you.)

 

[the.dreamfinder]

I saw that, too.
I'll have some thoughts on it later today.

Walks away from computer. High fives spirit.

 

[RandySavage]

You realize you just compared power lines to a coaster right? You keep changing the rules. Either compare coster to coaster or dont. I mean next you will exclude some based on a certain paint color.

I was trying to make a simple, real world analogy to show how scale matters in these cases.

Two unthemed coasters... the smaller one draws less attention to itself. It is absorbed by the trees and landscape, and, thus, makes less of a visual impact on the wider environment. Therefore it is less distracting and less of a reminder that you're in an amusement park versus Potter's world. To say Dragon Challenge and Hippogriff have equal visual impact because they're both naked coasters is like saying the two types of power lines have equal visual impact on the view out your window.

 

[Funmeister]

I was trying to make a simple, real world analogy to show how scale matters in these cases.

Two unthemed coasters... the smaller one draws less attention to itself. It is absorbed by the trees and landscape, and, thus, makes less of a visual impact on the wider environment. Therefore it is less distracting and less of a reminder that you're in an amusement park versus Potter's world. To say Dragon Challenge and Hippogriff have equal visual impact because they're both naked coasters is like saying the two types of power lines have equal visual impact on the view out your window.

Ok...now compare thoae two to Barnstormer and Chester & Hester and Goofys Flight School...they are smaller but have much more of a negative visual impact than both of the examples you gave.

 

[BryceM]

Leviathan is indeed a beast. So much power and speed. Makes the Hulk look truly puny. B&M have learned much since they made Hulk for Uni (still like it for what it is; but is is sorta showing its age).

Behemoth is also a fine ride, although I prefer it's sister ride at Kings Island, Diamondback.

The Hulk is rather small in in height when you really look at it.

 

[Lee]

High fives spirit.

Agreed. Spirit called it. Seems the NYT also thought that the Disney/gambling story was worthy of discussion.

But something troubling...
The story changed.

That article went up yesterday afternoon on the online site....and it was different. Yesterday's version was much more negative toward Disney's position. Really showcased their hypocrisy.

But sometime overnight, changes were made that added much more rebuttal from Disney than before. It's almost as if some pressure was applied somewhere down the line that allowed changes, ones that really altered the tone of the piece, to be made after the initial publication. That troubles me.

Also, I think the article, while very well done overall, failed to ask some serious questions. Questions such as why Disney is in the dreaded gambling business at all? And why were they, according to their own statement, making new deals just in the last couple of years?
Of course now, conveniently, they state that they will not be renewing any of those gambling licenses. I wonder what the slot machine and lottery companies think about that decision. Reckon they knew or were they caught unawares?

Lots of stuff going on behind the scenes with this issue. It should be quite interesting to watch it play out.
Personally, I think Disney is fighting a losing battle. Their opponents, including the Sands Corp., seem to be in this for the long haul, and are playing for keeps.

I look forward to hearing Spirit's take on this when he returns from regions beyond.

 

[CDavid]

Ok...now compare thoae two to Barnstormer and Chester & Hester and Goofys Flight School...they are smaller but have much more of a negative visual impact than both of the examples you gave.

Granted, but the latter two examples were deliberately done "on the cheap" within either a theme park themed as an amusement park or as part of a theme park themed as a roadside carnival. Poor design choice, certainly, and both should ultimately be removed. Neither is appropriate for a Disney theme park.

I think Barnstormer often gets a pass (and maybe it shouldn't) because its small stature and placement leave it largely out of direct view unless you are there and looking right at it, and because it is billed as a "kiddie coaster". It's awful to think that either a (purely) "kiddie" ride is considered acceptable in the Magic Kingdom or that such a ride doesn't deserve the same level of theme and attention to detail as anything else, but it's probably true enough.

 

[unkadug]

I'm not saying the two are linked, I'm saying it could cause political trouble too, aside from any legal issues. Looks like the New York Times agrees with me though. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/27/us/gambling-debate-entangles-disney-in-florida.html?hp&_r=0

two interesting quotes that I would like to point out:

Its competitors argue that Disney fears competition more than gambling.

“Hypocrisy is in the eye of the beholder,” said Robert Jarvis, a law professor at Nova Southeastern University’s Law Center and an expert on gambling law. “If they were honest, they would just come out and say, it’s Business 101. We’re trying to protect our turf, and we’ve always attempted to do that.”​

The whole article supports my position that Disney will play politics to stop gambling on or near their property.

edited for clarity.

 

[TalkingHead]

I was trying to make a simple, real world analogy to show how scale matters in these cases.

Two unthemed coasters... the smaller one draws less attention to itself. It is absorbed by the trees and landscape, and, thus, makes less of a visual impact on the wider environment. Therefore it is less distracting and less of a reminder that you're in an amusement park versus Potter's world. To say Dragon Challenge and Hippogriff have equal visual impact because they're both naked coasters is like saying the two types of power lines have equal visual impact on the view out your window.

A few thoughts on this never-ending discussion of unthemed tracks and (gasp!) supports.

1. I find it interesting that while Dragon Challenge gets raked over the coals by some Disney fans for being "unthemed," you could make a case it's more themed than Astro Orbiter or its predecessor the Rocket Jets. That really goes for all the spinners, but this one in particular because of its height.

2. There's a wonderful thrill to being outside and scanning the horizon when you're on a lift hill that isn't muddled with theming. I know a lot of Disney fans like to deny the existence of an outside-the-parks reality, but I enjoy that moment on coasters looking around at other parts of the city and landmarks on the horizon.

3. If the options are a "themed" coaster like RNRC (which after the launch is a really lousy design) or Hulk, I'll take Hulk every time. In fact, if Disney coaster-haters give the ride portion of RNRC a pass for being "themed," then I'm questioning why Dragon Challenge would need elaborate rock work to satisfy them. Just throw a few dragon cutouts along the path and call it a day.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Also, I think the article, while very well done overall, failed to ask some serious questions. Questions such as why Disney is in the dreaded gambling business at all? And why were they, according to their own statement, making new deals just in the last couple of years?

They're just as obvious as they were then. Disney got in the business by acquiring companies with existing deals. New deals were signed because Marvel was exercising their promised autonomy. We were all discussing how Disney was basically uninvolved with The Avengers. If they weren't yet involved in the big reason the acquisition would make financial sense they sure as hell wouldn't be deeply involved in the many, many, many, many licensing deals. Contrast this to Lucasfilm where Disney did step in right away and they haven't been going about making their own decisions and setting up new licensing deals.

 

[Lee]

two interesting quotes that I would like to point out:

Its competitors argue that Disney fears competition more than gambling.

“Hypocrisy is in the eye of the beholder,” said Robert Jarvis, a law professor at Nova Southeastern University’s Law Center and an expert on gambling law. “If they were honest, they would just come out and say, it’s Business 101. We’re trying to protect our turf, and we’ve always attempted to do that.”​

The whole article supports my position that Disney will play politics to stop gambling on their property.

There is no chance (realistically) of gambling ever coming to Disney property.

It's the idea of it appearing elsewhere nearby that scares them. Really scares them.