Spirited News and Observations and Opinions ...

[misterID]

So when 38 or more of those restaurants are posting a great than 40 minute wait then what?

You are expecting the same results with a 30% attendance growth since the addition of the fourth park and not the same amount of growth in the number of restaurants.

What you want is simply mathematically not possible and it has nothing to do with the dining plan.

I have to agree with Jakeman here. I can say that dining was beginning to be a nightmare before DDP. Also, the food quality was getting worse before that, and more expensive. They had already changed the citrus swirl before DDP and the strawberry swirl disappeared. Sit down dinners were getting harder and harder to get without a reservation and even then it started getting harder to get a reservation. Has DDP made it worse? Who knows, I do know it was already heading that way. You also have to consider, considering the money invested in DDP, those people were going to have sitdown dinners anyway.

 

[GoofGoof]

You laso have to consider, the money invested in DDP, those people were going to have sitdown dinners anyway.

That's where free DDP comes into play. It's not the DDP itself, but the promotions of offering it for free as a perk to get people to book rooms and buy park tickets.

 

[flynnibus]

Well, be sure you get your facts straight after saying someone is "full of it".

Still waiting for a fact from you..

The rules on crowd control are based on liability for safety of workers. I refer you to the Occupational Health and Safety Act of 1970, a Federal law by which employers are responsible for providing workers with a healthy and safe workplace. CAL-OSHA is responsible for compliance with this law and is particularly aggressive with enforcement (unlike Florida which is relatively lax).

I'm well aware of OSHA and the state boards - none of which backs your claim of DLR doing better crowd control due to crowd control laws in Cali... and if your answer is the OSHA act - well it applies to both FL and Cali.. so so much for that theory.

There have been many forced changes at DL that are the result of OSHA compliance issues. Recent changes mandated at Disneyland include guardrails on the bridges for Casey Jr. and railings on the Alice in Wonderland ride, for example. In the past they have leveled fines against Disneyland for a number of serious infractions, including the Columbia accident. So much for "guidance" - CAL/OSHA has legal responsibility for enforcing the law. FYI the guidance documents you refer to are recommendations for compliance with the Federal law.

Of course - CalOSHA's oversight of fixed amusements in Cali is in part due to DL's accidents - but again.. this doesn't mean anything to your claims of differences in law for crowd control for Cali vs FL.

And guidance (like the semi-recent Crowd Control for Retail posting) are simply best practice guidelines to avoid issues - not standards of compliance. Different beasts.

The differences between DLR's handling of how parade control is done is not due CalOSHA. And several of your examples there are not due to CalOSHA either - they are DLR acting preemptively to avoid future OSHA conflicts.

 

[flynnibus]

What you want is simply mathematically not possible and it has nothing to do with the dining plan.

Sure it does.

DDP puts more people in the restaurant than would likely have eaten there to start with. The beauty of the DDP is it convinces people to upsell themselves.. they eat more because it's 'free' and by doing so they in turn tell themselves its a 'deal' and they 'saved money' - because they compare to what they spent.. vs what their dining habits would have been WITHOUT the plan. Put free dining in the mix.. and it all accelerates to ludicrous speed.

In addition, the larger ADR window increases the chances of having slots filled. A reservation is more likely to turn up for their table vs 'looking for a walk-in'. The ADR increases chances of running at full capacity.

 

[The Empress Lilly]

The beauty of the DDP is it convinces people to upsell themselves.. they eat more because it's 'free' and by doing so they in turn tell themselves its a 'deal' and they 'saved money'

Unmitigated genius, the most incisive description of the DDP and guest psychology ever!

 

[WDW1974]

When OKW opened members got free passes to the parks.

Yeah, that lasted about 3-4 years if I recall.

 

[WDW1974]

The different EMH are always hard to keep up with, I personally would prefer a FP instead.

If you can't read a weekly schedule and figure out what the hours are for a park, then you have no one to blame but yourself. It ain't exactly rocket science.

 

[WDW1974]

Speaking of crowd control, I was at the Magic Kingdom last night when it started to pour down rain. You would've thought the sky was falling as hoards of people began leaving. I overheard one of the PAC CMs telling another colleague that she had no idea what she was doing/supposed to be doing, so she was just going to stand where she was until told otherwise. It reminded me of the discussion in this thread about the chaotic and crappy crowd control at the MK.

And I'll even chime in on crowd control at Epcot. I've been there quite often at night on my CP, and I can attest first hand that there is no such thing as crowd control there. On Christmas night, for example, as I was walking around World Showcase before IllumiNations, I saw many people standing on benches, walls, and other places they shouldn't be standing. There was one CM from the American Adventure "patrolling" the promenade between the American Garden's Theatre and Italy, and that was the only one I seen. Showcase Plaza is a hellhole because you have a mass amount of people squeezed into a small space, and people literally laying in the walkway! It's a shame this is what WDW is like nowadays.

Crowd control has become an absolute joke. MK is worst just because it attracts the most people and they all need to squeeze up or down MSUSA to enter or exit. They have the worst trained group I have seen at any Disney park in the world. By a large margin. ... And someone is going to get hurt (I am sure they already have and walked away with free trips on Disney) or worse.

I have friends that will be spending the next few days at WDW's parks and I think they're a bit insane despite knowing how to get away from the hordes better than the average guest.

 

[WDW1974]

The "New" Disney simply is NOT for people who can comprehend sitting in front of the fire at the Wilderness Lodge soaking up the ambiance.
But As a local think I have figured out how I am going to utilize FastPass+. From far away up at Universal Resort Orlando!

Well, in my brief trip up last week, I spent parts of two days sitting around the WL and Villas just soaking up the ambience and relaxing (to me the entire point of a vacation) and another full day at UNI/IOA where we didn't wait for a single thing thanks to comped Express Passes (the Spirit has his ways!)

I just don't see myself ever waiting 30 minutes to ride Mermaid again when I can do it between 2-5 times over that period most days in Anaheim

 

[WDW1974]

FP+ is just an extension of ADRs and DDP. It has been hard to have a "spontaneous" vacation at WDW for over a decade now IMHO. I hate to say it, but if you can't beat em, join em. I will be booking my FP+ reservations the same time as my ADRs.

I say BS to that.

Although I often have things I want to do, and Disney does make it increasingly difficult to just do what you want (no, I won't pay $15 to valet to spend 90 minutes at the Grand Flo because you're worried that locals are gonna park there to go to MVMCP!), I will stop going before I ever have to plan every detail or wait in line. And I'll make sure that not only the top execs at WDW get a detailed letter, but I'll also be in touch with every member of the BoD, the top execs of TWDC and analysts who follow the stock.

 

[WDW1974]

Is there a reason why you're being so cryptic? Like this message if you would like to just tell us the things that you know but you just can't.

I'm not cryptic ... what would you like to know?

Oh, and I meant to go after one of your posts on some other thread where you started getting insane and talking about fifth and sixth gates for WDW. I forgot where that was, but all I'll say again is IT IS NOT GONNA HAPPEN (so deal with the four boring parks that you've got!)

 

[WDW1974]

Revenue enhancement and operational efficiency enhancement would be items one and two. Guest experience is actually a distant third or even fourth in this. This is as much about infrastructure than anything in the public eye. Add in the data mining and analytics, you get the gold mine. As far as the tests go, I'll just say that booze consumption and sleep aid sales are increasing in some parts of the company.
This is really an operational bet the farm project. It will either work or crumble. It may still work in the long run but I suspect there could be some fall guys at certain points. I only hope the sword doesn't fall on anyone I know.

Jim MacPhee was in the running to replace Meg and was taken out of it largely because if NEXT Gen fails, he is the designated fall guy. And I don't see how this isn't going to be like the Disney version of New Coke.

They want extra money from me and they're instead getting less all the time. And when you tell them ways in which you'd like to give them your money, they don't even seem to care. They have it all figured out.

BTW, totally unconfirmed rumour (so take it as such as it is just into the Spirit cave this evening) is that a ticket media price hike is on the way in early '13.

 

[WDW1974]

Based on my experience, the only thing for certain is that private companies do not invest $1.5B unless they intend a return on investment greater than $1.5B.

Please, folks, before you start talking up why you think FP+ may be a good thing or want to have a wait and see 'tude just re-read the common sense in the sentence above. Think about it. Let it set in and percolate in your minds (like a Starbucks latte on MSUSA!) and then decide whether you really want to defend this giant spending exercise.

 

[WDW1974]

Ok, I just went on the (new and rather buggy) WDW website to look for dining reservations. For New Years Eve (which I understand to be a busy day) I could get a table for 4 for dinner at 32 different restaurants. Of course not all at the most preferred times between 6pm and 7pm (even though some places did have those times available). It very much is a myth that you really need an ADR to eat at WDW. One needs it for certain restaurants. Oh and there are even spots open for the Candlelight Processional.

First, you can't trust the WDW site. I logged in tonight to connect with a friend for an upcoming trip and it first wouldn't let me do it and then finally showed my resort ressie, but none of the meal ressies.

But, yes, you can always find somewhere to eat. That is not the point. I am quite sure I could book Captain Jack's or Turf Club for NYE ... maybe even a Hollywood and Vine ... or a Marrakesh ... quite likely a Wave unless people think that will give them free reign to park at the Contemporary and not show up and walk to the MK.

There are always options, but that doesn't mean they'll fit in terms of time/place/cuisine/price.

Last week, I made an ADR one night and two nights prior to dining and got exactly what I wanted. But it was lunch (always easier) and it was resort and DD locales (also always easier).

 

[WDW1974]

Threads like this seem to drive crowds to the parks. I guess people want to see if it is as bad as Kevin Yee and a certain spirit claim it is. Or something.

C'mon, JT.

You gotta do better than that.

If that's your A material, I'd suggest you take a break because there's just nothing to it ...

 

[Pumbas Nakasak]

Edit--- perhaps the critics are just hopelessly out of touch. Or something.

Well you would be the expert on such things.

Disney busy at international present exchange time, who'd have thought.

 

[WDW1974]

Arguably the busiest week of the year on a Saturday night and only 38 restaurants are showing no availability for dinner tonight.

Jake?!?!?

Nice to see you alive. I thought you were no longer with us since it's been ages since I've seen you here. Hope all is well and that you had a very merry Christmas!

I would say that those 38 places showing no availability are likely places everyone wants to eat. I doubt you had openings at MK (even with the lousy selection of locales) or much at EPCOT (probably could get into China or Morocco and, perhaps, one of the Mexican places).

Just having some availability in the system only shows that there are openings. I'm sure I could have gotten into most any DD locale tonight that wasn't owned by Landry's if I had been willing to wait some. But that's simply a result of people being in the parks and not wanting to leave MK to have dinner at Portabello or Bongos or HoB.

 

[WDW1974]

Oh, I don't like DDP at all - I think it destroyed the menus at WDW and led to horribly overpriced food. I only had it once, when it was still a deal as the appetizer and the gratuity was included. Now I think it does not offer any deal.

I just think that it isn't true that you can't dine at a Disney restaurant without an ADR well in advance. Does it become more difficult - yes. But as it is today, you can still be spontaneous about your day even with the negative effect the DDP has had on dining at Disney. You could even go and have dinner offsite. My best meal on my last trip to WDW was at Tchoup Chop at the end of our day at Universal - for the same money I spent at Kona the day after, we got a meal with the quality of Flying Fish (my overall favourite restaurant at WDW).

However, FP+ will truly kill the spontaneity in touring the parks at WDW.

Tchoup Chop is amazing. Had a phenomenal lunch there last week (think the highest price item was $16). Kona Cafe can't compete. It couldn't a decade ago when it was pretty damn good. But with UNI fine dining, you don't have to do this PS tango that you have to do with Disney.

My general rules on Disney dining are as such:
1.) eat off property;
2.) eat at Swan/Dolphin, DD locales and hotel plaza locales not run by Disney, many that offer great AP discounts or you can buy restaurant.com certificates where you get $25 worth of food for like $3;
3.) eat at WDW locales were CM friends get 40% discounts;
4.) eat at other WDW locales with cast friends when they have 35-50% holiday certificates;
5.) Never ever eat a single thing in Tomorrowland!

 

[WDW1974]

It doesn't have anything to do with DDP. I used it once and found it not to be a good value and haven't used it since and when asked tell others not to use it either.

Do you really think that if there were no DDP all of the restaurants would magically have availability?

Since Animal Kingdom opened in 1998, there are 10 million more people going every year, or an extra 27,000 people on property per day. They've added, what, 10-15 more restaurants across all of property? How many have they closed? There are simply more people at Disney now with only marginally more dining choices. I'm not saying that is a good thing, but simply chanting DDP over and over isn't taking a look at the bigger picture.

I like that the idea of spontaneity is wrapped up in the basic notion of "what I want, when I want." I wonder how spontaneous a two hour wait in the lobby of Ohana's for dinner because it's first come first serve would feel? Or having to be up at 7 a.m. the day of your vacation to make a same day reservation with everyone else on property?

Things were certainly not perfect a decade ago, but the DDP made them exponentially worse.
People who would be eating at Cosmic Ray's are now at the California Grill (demanding their filets all cooked 'plain' and without the sides, just French fries -- I have witnessed this on my last 3-4 visits). These folks are trying to get the 'value' out of the DDP (disclaimer: I did it twice when it was FREE and you could stay at a value resort and you got one full serve, one quick serve and one snack a day -- and the full serve included appetizer and gratuity and I still didn't like the planning involved even though it was a HUGE value at that point!)

Now, dining is just a mess. BoG is booked through the spring. I mean, really?

And prices have gone through the roof to justify the DDP and push people into it. I wish people would just stop buying it and smarten up about where they choose to eat. ... yeah, you can make a ressie six months in advance for Tepan Edo or walk across the street from DD to the Hilton and walk into Benihana and get larger portions, better food and lower prices.

As to 'Ohana, I am done with it. Not worth the noise and the crowds even with a ressie ... and my last two meals have been on friends too!

 

[WDW1974]

The way the system was when EPCOT Center opened? I actually didn't hate that system. I remember walking up to places and asking if they had any tables and how long the wait was. If it was more than 40 minutes, I didn't bother. Many times it was 20-25 minutes for some of the nicer restaurants depending on when you went. If it was a restaurant at a resort, we would relax in the lounge which many times would actually have live music. It was more social. So yes, I would not have a single problem if that system returned. It was a more civilized system for a more civilized age.

Amen. Shout it from the rooftops, brutha ... praise the lord!

Damn straight.

We have Walmart dining for a Walmart audience in Walmart times.